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120Hz vs 60Hz

post #1 of 76
Thread Starter 
Ok, after a couple weeks of research, I've narrowed down my choices for a new HDTV to either the Samsung LN-T5265F or LN-T5271F. The only difference is the 120Hz refresh rate on the 71. I was blown away by the 65 at a store, and did some more online research afterwards to make sure there weren't any big problems with them. I soon discovered that they had a 120Hz version, and went to another store (BB didn't have them) to check it out. Honestly, I could only see a difference during panning of some movie scenes and a few other scenes. BTW, the main purpose of this tv will be for movies, tv, and rarely gaming. This is a big purchase for me, and I don't want to regret not getting the 120Hz down the road if it becomes the standard.

I don't really care about playing games, but I can understand why gamers would want smoother playback. I do like the idea of movie playing without judder from 3:2 pulldown. However, I have to ask this. When I watch I movie with my old Sony DVD player and 27" CRT tv, I do not really notice this judder. Is this because it's a CRT, or is this because my eyes/brain don't care about it? In other words, will a 60Hz LCD look the same, worse, or better than a CRT when it comes to perceived motion and judder effects? If worse, will the 120Hz make it look more like the CRT I'm used to.

Oh, one more question for those of you with the 120Hz Samsung 71... can you turn off the Auto-Motion feature? Samsung's website does not say anything about being able to turn it off, and the guy at tweeter said you cannot. However, some people here have said that they can turn it off. (I hate talking to the "experts" at these stores. I always bait them with questions I know the answer to, and they tell me BS about 50% of the time.)

Thanks.
post #2 of 76
I have the 5271, and can say I am happy I did. Not only does it have the 120hz, but it also has deeper blacks, which is nice during the day (looks similar to a CRT), and REALLY nice at night, as you get deeper blacks (most sets will have a very grey black at night). When AMP (Auto Motion Plus) is turned off, it is my understanding that 120hz is still activated. I am traveling in Canada this week, and walked into a Future Shop yesterday. They did not have the 5271, but the 4665 and 5265 that they had both looked much blurrier than my set during football, even with the AMP turned off. I usually keep Amp turned off because when it is set on, it gives kind of a Soap Opera look, which I don't care for, but many others love. Bottom line, it was worth it to me, but you can get the 65 series for a really good deal right now (they offered me the 4665 for $1,699), so if the 120hz and better blacks is not that big a deal to you, you could save yourself a lot of money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swede78 View Post

Ok, after a couple weeks of research, I've narrowed down my choices for a new HDTV to either the Samsung LN-T5265F or LN-T5271F. The only difference is the 120Hz refresh rate on the 71. I was blown away by the 65 at a store, and did some more online research afterwards to make sure there weren't any big problems with them. I soon discovered that they had a 120Hz version, and went to another store (BB didn't have them) to check it out. Honestly, I could only see a difference during panning of some movie scenes and a few other scenes. BTW, the main purpose of this tv will be for movies, tv, and rarely gaming. This is a big purchase for me, and I don't want to regret not getting the 120Hz down the road if it becomes the standard.

I don't really care about playing games, but I can understand why gamers would want smoother playback. I do like the idea of movie playing without judder from 3:2 pulldown. However, I have to ask this. When I watch I movie with my old Sony DVD player and 27" CRT tv, I do not really notice this judder. Is this because it's a CRT, or is this because my eyes/brain don't care about it? In other words, will a 60Hz LCD look the same, worse, or better than a CRT when it comes to perceived motion and judder effects? If worse, will the 120Hz make it look more like the CRT I'm used to.

Oh, one more question for those of you with the 120Hz Samsung 71... can you turn off the Auto-Motion feature? Samsung's website does not say anything about being able to turn it off, and the guy at tweeter said you cannot. However, some people here have said that they can turn it off. (I hate talking to the "experts" at these stores. I always bait them with questions I know the answer to, and they tell me BS about 50% of the time.)

Thanks.
post #3 of 76
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the response. One of the biggest reasons I'm choosing between these models is the deep blacks/contrast. The Sony's were close behind with a little crisper image, but like I said... I watch mostly movies and want the deeper blacks. So, couldn't agree with you more.

But, my real question was whether or not to spend an extra $800 for 120hz. Maybe I was confused. You also say you can't switch it to 60hz, but you can turn off the Auto-Motion feature. Isn't the 120hz refresh rate what gives it the auto-motion feature? I thought they were one in the same.

Also, this brings up another question about this 120hz spec. Does it have different modes of how it does it. I've seen other tv's use interpolation (calculate the in-between frames). I believe this is what I read the Samsung's do. However, I think I'd prefer to see a movie without this, so it isn't creating fake frames. But, at the same time, I'd like it to play the frames at a consistent rate (5:5 I believe vs 3:2). Can it do this? Thanks for your feedback.
post #4 of 76
Well, many questions are unanswered. At first, I thought you had to have AMP on to get 120hz, but many people have commented that 120hz is always on. Which would make sense, because AMP has an Off, Low, Medium, and High setting. If AMP turned on 120hz, how do you get the different settings,,,,I mean, either 120hz is on or it is not,,,nothing inbetween. So it is my understanding that AMP is an additional processing on top of 120hz. this is the common belief,,,but we may be wrong. The other thing that supports this issue is that with AMP off you get less blur than with the 65 series. And yes, it uses interpolation. In regards to 5:5, the jury is still out. It will accept a 24p source, but what exactly is happening is open for debate. Here is my suggestion. Call Samsung Customer Support at 1-800-Samsung, and ask them these questions. Please let us know the response you get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swede78 View Post

Thanks for the response. One of the biggest reasons I'm choosing between these models is the deep blacks/contrast. The Sony's were close behind with a little crisper image, but like I said... I watch mostly movies and want the deeper blacks. So, couldn't agree with you more.

But, my real question was whether or not to spend an extra $800 for 120hz. Maybe I was confused. You also say you can't switch it to 60hz, but you can turn off the Auto-Motion feature. Isn't the 120hz refresh rate what gives it the auto-motion feature? I thought they were one in the same.

Also, this brings up another question about this 120hz spec. Does it have different modes of how it does it. I've seen other tv's use interpolation (calculate the in-between frames). I believe this is what I read the Samsung's do. However, I think I'd prefer to see a movie without this, so it isn't creating fake frames. But, at the same time, I'd like it to play the frames at a consistent rate (5:5 I believe vs 3:2). Can it do this? Thanks for your feedback.
post #5 of 76
While on the subject, I was in the local blue store this weekend doing some 'feature shopping' on washers and dryers at different stores (ended up with a sexy cherry red LG set, fwiw) and I pass a big aisle-end display touting the virtues of 120 over the apparently horrible 60hz sets.

It was a side-by-side split down the middle comparison of panning shots where the '120hz' side was crispy, clean and clear... and the '60hz' side was horribly blurred, darker and almost unwatchable. It was obviously digitally altered and I was thinking to myself 'Oh, man. I seriously can not believe people get away with advertising like this, but I guess a sucker is born every minute.' 120hz tech is neat, imo, but still. As I'm standing there in near disbelief while watching this, my wife comes up beside me, looks at it for a bit, and tells them that that's a huge difference and we might start looking at getting one of these 120hz sets.

...


The demo was running on a 60hz Sony. I left to get our appliances.

Sorry. Just had to get that off my chest. It's been driving me nuts.
post #6 of 76
is it just me or am i one of the few that actually dislikes 120hz? i know its supposed to be smoother, ive seen an xbr5 with a bluray going and i didnt like it. compared to our xbr2 (projection 60hz) i didnt like it. sat there for about 30min and convinced myself its supposed to look better, but still no go. im a movie guy and the whole 120hz thing makes movies look to...i dunno realistic and fluid? i guess i like the cinematic effect that is slightly slow.
post #7 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by chopsu View Post

is it just me or am i one of the few that actually dislikes 120hz? i know its supposed to be smoother, ive seen an xbr5 with a bluray going and i didnt like it. compared to our xbr2 (projection 60hz) i didnt like it. sat there for about 30min and convinced myself its supposed to look better, but still no go. im a movie guy and the whole 120hz thing makes movies look to...i dunno realistic and fluid? i guess i like the cinematic effect that is slightly slow.

Not just you.....right now the jury is still out on first Generation 120hz. I have seen it work well, but later in same program, I thought it made it look worse or more accurately, made it look Odd.

For one movie there was a studder in frames, from the source or more likely the editing table. The 120 was fluid, rapidly fluid, then normal fluid. The rapid fluid really jump out. When on 60hz it was as simple as missing a frame or two. So the filling of missing frames in 120 was very noticeable to me.

Every 120hz set on the market now can be turned on or off. In this case if the prices are close I would go for the 71...as the other posters say its a better panel by itself.
post #8 of 76
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombaker View Post

Every 120hz set on the market now can be turned on or off. In this case if the prices are close I would go for the 71...as the other posters say its a better panel by itself.

Really? The only difference between the 65 and 71 that I can see from the specs is the 120hz. I can't find a store around me that has both. And going from one to the other, is impossible to compare. So, I have to compare the 71 to another brand non-120hz setup.

With 120hz on and AMP off (still some people say it's always on, some say you can turn it off. I'll assume it's always on, but you can turn off the AMP.), do you still get the odd or strange fluidity in movies? Or does it then mostly act like a 60hz box.

Oh, I like the comments about the obvious marketing scam with the video running on a 60hz machine. Still I do actually see a difference, but not that dramatic. I also saw a flash demo on Amazon with a ball bouncing. The "60hz" version shows tons of blur. The "120hz" version shows zero blur. IMO, objects in motion should have some blur depending on how fast they're moving. My big thing here is that I don't want the juddering, the non-even frame stuff. So, if the 71 can do that with AMP turned off but with 120hz, I'd probably be sold.
post #9 of 76
With HD news and HD sports, I keep AMP on high. It just makes motions look live to me.

But with all other broadcasts and with movies, I keep amp on low or off.
post #10 of 76
The panel is 120 Hz, but it also does the standard 60 Hz and there's no 120 Hz sources out there just yet. AMP is there to process the 60 Hz source by interpolating the extra frames into it, for a pseudo-120 Hz effect. When AMP is off, the panel just leaves the source alone and displays it in its native 60 Hz.

Then, there's that whole 1080p 24 fps Blu-Ray output thing. I don't really understand it, but from what I gathered by reading these forums, a 120 Hz native panel can display that type of signal more accurately, providing for more cinema-like movie experience.

If I am wrong on something, please correct me.
post #11 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by chopsu View Post

is it just me or am i one of the few that actually dislikes 120hz? i know its supposed to be smoother, ive seen an xbr5 with a bluray going and i didnt like it. compared to our xbr2 (projection 60hz) i didnt like it. sat there for about 30min and convinced myself its supposed to look better, but still no go. im a movie guy and the whole 120hz thing makes movies look to...i dunno realistic and fluid? i guess i like the cinematic effect that is slightly slow.

Maybe you saw the motion flow activited, the Sony/Samsung 120hz displays are still great without their respective motion ehancement technologies. I personally don't like them either. I send 1080p24 from a Samsung BDP1400 and Toshiba HDA35 to my Sony 52XBR4 and I see a big difference in horizontal pans, the Sony converts 24hz to 120hz by doing 5:5 (not too sure if Samsung does the same). I leave motion flow "off" and I see a difference over the 60hz display that my Sony replaced.
post #12 of 76
Thread Starter 
I've been doing a little more reading on forums here and there. It seems that nobody can confirm that the Samsung 71 120hz uses 5:5 pulldown for 24fps sources. It's possible, but others have said it's also very possible that they just do a 3:2 pulldown to get it to 60hz, then double it. So, the judder would still be there, just a little quicker. I wouldn't think that that's worth the extra cash. I tried calling Samsung and they couldn't answer anything technical. In fact, they just said it means that it displays 120fps, and questioned WHY I would even want to turn AMP for movies. Since Samsung doesn't state that it can do 5:5 pulldown with no judder, I'm going to assume it cannot.
post #13 of 76
Geeze, I would have to be your salesman. Just buy a TV, plug it in, and watch. All TV's these days look nice. Your choice on the Samsung is good. Just BUY IT!
post #14 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by swedeneeds2buyaT View Post

Geeze, I would have to be your salesman. Just buy a TV, plug it in, and watch. All TV's these days look nice. Your choice on the Samsung is good. Just BUY IT!

Uh... I don't know about him, but personally if I am going to spend $3000+ on a TV, I am going to be very picky and make sure that I make the right choice. We are not talking about $1000 Costco Visio's here.
post #15 of 76
I totally agree, when spending this kind of bread it's best to take your time and know what you're taking home.
post #16 of 76
Thread Starter 
swedeneeds2buyaT is my co-worker. I think he's trying to say I've been spending too much time researching TVs. Funny guy, huh? Even though every time I look, he's on some snowmobile forum, and I don't say nothing.

I called Samsung again. This time I asked for an expert. (not sure that's what I got) But, I was able to confirm that the 71 series does NOT do 5:5 pulldown. He said that the AMP 120hz was meant to solve motion blur problems. Maybe so. However, I really didn't see those problems when I viewed mostly 60hz sets. So, I've given up on getting a TV with true 24fps judder-free playback. I'll settle for current standards.

So, I went to another store that had the 5265. Again, the blacks looked great. But, this was on an SD feed, which I didn't see before. I was not impressed with the quality. I know, I know... most won't look that good in SD. But, the Sony's were better. Looking at specs, the Samsungs don't have a comb filter like Sony's do. Maybe this is why there's a big difference in SD.

I was looking at another post here, which compares the XBR4 to the 71: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ght=xbr4+vs+71

I scanned through a lot (and there's A LOT!) of posts about these TVs. Unfortunately, not much about the auto motion or 120hz (So, if you're looking for more about those features, don't bother looking at that thread). But, what's nice is that they included pictures of the tvs, which let you really examine the quality. When I first starting looking at HDTVs, my eyes were impressed mostly by a 46" Sony v2500. It had excellent sharpness/detail and brightness. Then, I saw the 46" Samsung 65 series. I was awed by the deep black. When I looked at these pics, I believe the Sony had clearly better detail. Not only that, it was nearly as deep of a black. With a little more research, I found that the KDL-xxW3000's were nearly identical to the XBR4s, minus the 120hz. Also, the W3000s don't have the glass bezel and it is 16000:1 contrast vs XBR4's 18000:1. (but they both have 2000:1 true contrast.). And it's much cheaper. Basically the W3000 is to the XBR4 as the 65 is to the 71.

I sort of changed my mind at this point and was leaning towards the W3000. The dynamic contrast was higher than that of the 65 on paper after all. However, I'm not sure if this holds true just by the numbers. So, after checking prices, I decided to go to CC and check them out. They were far apart, but I think the Sony's black level was very good and just slightly less than the Samsung's. But, the detail still looks more accurate and sharp to me. Plus, the Sony's cheaper (there).

By the way, I was watching the 120hz on the 5271 a little more closely. This time, without some obnoxious salesman pushing how 120hz is a MUST HAVE. I noticed that the AMP seemed very inconsistent. Sometimes, you'd notice it, then it'd look like it slowed down and turned off. It wasn't a jerky transition from "on" to "off", but like someone was slowly turning a knob that controlled the effect's affectiveness up and down smoothly. Very strange. I decided then that I preferred the regular motion of the original frames. I think more FPS is nice, but not when they're simulated.

It's sitting in my living room in a giant box just waiting for me to set it up tomorrow. My co-worker is right that most newer TVs are pretty good. And the Sony W3000's/XBR4s and the Samsungs 65/71s are all awesome. But, for me this is a huge purchase. Plus he doesn't like movies, so who cares what he thinks about TVs. And my point here is that you'll prolly be happy with any TV you put a little time into researching. The research helps make me not wonder about that other TV. I feel really confident that I'll love this TV for years. Happy TV hunting to all.
post #17 of 76
hi swede ..

i'm facing the same dilemma as yourself and after some time researching (mostly this board & thru-out the Net), I've selected the LN-T5265F and Sony 52W3000. Not interested any longer w/ the 120hz feature; CNet (fwiw) tested the Toshiba 52LX177 and could not decern any diff. btw it and 60hz's it tested alongside. also said blacks were better on the Sharp 52d64u .. also
a possibility, maybe(?).

I'd like to have the bucks (& calibrating knowledge) to set them up side-by-side and see which is best. Local stores don't have the Samsung, but seen the Sony and am impressed. Would like to view each and see how they handle motion scenes .. just normal ones w/o alot of artifacting or other lingo. Something you see on a "normal" set in recent years.

also, fwiw .. good deals at B&H on Sony and Beach for Samsung.

Happy Hunting .. oh, btw .. thanks for starting this thread.
post #18 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel'son View Post

hi swede ..

i'm facing the same dilemma as yourself and after some time researching (mostly this board & thru-out the Net), I've selected the LN-T5265F and Sony 52W3000. Not interested any longer w/ the 120hz feature; CNet (fwiw) tested the Toshiba 52LX177 and could not decern any diff. btw it and 60hz's it tested alongside. also said blacks were better on the Sharp 52d64u .. also
a possibility, maybe(?).

I'd like to have the bucks (& calibrating knowledge) to set them up side-by-side and see which is best. Local stores don't have the Samsung, but seen the Sony and am impressed. Would like to view each and see how they handle motion scenes .. just normal ones w/o alot of artifacting or other lingo. Something you see on a "normal" set in recent years.

also, fwiw .. good deals at B&H on Sony and Beach for Samsung.

Happy Hunting .. oh, btw .. thanks for starting this thread.

Just as a heads up, UltimateAV/Cnet liked Sony's implementation. The Sony XBR does 120hz even with motion flow turned "off" (which is how I use it). Toshiba implements 120hz differently than the Sony. Toshiba takes a 24fps signal and does 3:2 pulldown to arrive at 60hz and then doubles it to get 120hz. The Sony takes a 24fps signal and does 5:5 to arrive at 120z, a completely different animal. The XBR is uncanny at removing judder. Not trying to change your mind, just thought you shoud know. Everyone I know who owns the "W" series is happy with it.
post #19 of 76
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrstevens421 View Post

The Sony takes a 24fps signal and does 5:5 to arrive at 120z, a completely different animal. The XBR is uncanny at removing judder. Not trying to change your mind, just thought you shoud know. Everyone I know who owns the "W" series is happy with it.

Yes, I've read that the XBR4s do the 5:5 pulldown on various posts here. But, I couldn't confirm that on Sony's website. The W series has "24P True Cinema", which uses 3:2 pulldown. XBR4 also has "24P True Cinema". Sony's site does not say whether this is a 5:5 or 3:2 version. Once I get this puppy hooked up. I'll post what I think of the movie playback. If it wasn't so much more expensive, I'd probably would've gone with the XBR4.

Also, I think the Samsung 120hz is the same way. You can shut the Auto-Motion off, but it's still 120hz. It just doesn't try to create unique frames.
post #20 of 76
I'm pretty sure the Samsung does 5:5 as well. The Sony's 120hz status was confirmed by someone in the owners thread and some sources at Cnet and the Perfect Vision.

Check out this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post11964329

"The new XBR sets will not only display 24p as 5:5, but they will also take 60i, convert it to 24p, then display it at 120hz 5:5. The downside of the latter is that it takes a few frames to lock on the cadence of the signal, so it is better to feed 24p if possible. Be sure to check out the "theatre" viewing mode as well. SPE helped out with that and it works well. It is designed to emulate the picture on a professional display".
post #21 of 76
Thread Starter 
I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong. But, someone from Samsung said theirs do not do 5:5. Although, these customer support people are usually just reading from scripts, maybe they're wrong.

Why can't Sony or Samsung actually provide this information online? I tend to believe that if it has a really great feature that people want, that they would advertise it.
post #22 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by swede78 View Post

I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong. But, someone from Samsung said theirs do not do 5:5. Although, these customer support people are usually just reading from scripts, maybe they're wrong.

Why can't Sony or Samsung actually provide this information online? I tend to believe that if it has a really great feature that people want, that they would advertise it.

It's like pulling teeth, I wasn't able to confirm 5:5 support on the Samsung either, but it was rumored. Considering I own a XBR4 it was worth it for me to do a little digging (hence talking to Sony engineers in Japan). Some people even went as far as contacting Cnet who confirmed 5:5 after talking to Sony techs. Then the report from the Perfect Vision popped up in conjuction with a post on the insiders thread that supported the same info, so it's safe to say that the Sonys 120hz status is pretty much official. This info should be made available for everyone. I feel as if I just finished a covert mission.
post #23 of 76
swede,

you select the 52W3000 .. if so, why? desciding point(s) on model vs. Samsung "65? any other preferences to Sony model, good feelie ..etc?

local or online retailer?

Thanks.
post #24 of 76
Not to distract from the technical discussion, but I finally saw a 120hz display earlier today (40" Samsung I believe). My jaw dropped at how great it looked. It's a big a leap in terms of fluidity as the jump to HD was from SD in terms of detail. It's truly incredible, although I can see how some may feel it detracts from the "film-like" feel.

So I guess I'm saying: hell yes get the 120hz if you can.
post #25 of 76
I spent literally a couple hours looking at TVs last night between CC, BB, and Sears. I was looking at the Samsung DLPs, Sony SXRDs, and the new Sony/Sammy LCDs. At every store, I always came back to the 71 series Samsung. I messed with the settings many times to check the difference with 120hz, and I was astounded at how awesome it made the picture look. It makes the image look so 3D almost like it is live TV. Personally, I love that -- I can't imagine what it must do to games.

The new Sony SXRDs claim to have 120hz, but they definitely did not have the same affect on the image as the 71F and the XBR4. Overall, I liked the 71F more than the XBR4 if for nothing else than the fact that the PS3 style menu is HORRIBLE (what is Sony doing?).

I went to the store yesterday planning on buying a 50" Rear Projection for ~1500-2000, now I'm dead set on finding the best deal possible on the 46" 71F. It IS worth it IMO, and I don't want to be constantly rethinking my purchase. The 71F (or 81 if you can afford it) is THE TV to own right now.
post #26 of 76
It really just depends on how much motion blur bothers you. If you're watching a lot of sports, the extra $800 maybe worth it to you. I have a 4665f, and to be honest the only time I notice motion blur is on fast paced dark scenes. For example, on MHD (music HD), when they pan across the audience at a concert under usually very low light, you get some motion blur with people waving their arms and such. Sports look fine to me, but again, it's all a matter of perspective.

As for "future proofing," a couple of years down the line you'll be disappointed that you didn't wait for LED backlighting technology to mature anyway. The fact is, if a set looks good to you now, it will look the same 5 years from now.
post #27 of 76
In the 52" realm, $800 is a chunk of change (to me) when comparing the '65 vs '71. I feel, that in the next 8 months, the 60hz sets will drop below the $2k mark (incl. shipping and/or taxes). That's when I'll probably purchase the Samsung '65.

After viewing some 60z vs 120z, I believe those who appreciate the later most are the gamers (xbox, etc.) .. I'm a older fellow who's not party to this newest phase of entertainment. I would just like a nice set that'll "display" images in the normal fashion. The "live-like" images a previous poster mentioned, I think, are more the 1080i part of the set at work. Fast moving is probably the benefit of 120hz, but some are reporting its not discernable to the untrained eye.

I have 'untrained' eyes and they'll probably get worser in time. If I'm still kickin' in next 15-20yrs, I'll look at the LED's, space aliens & artificial life.
post #28 of 76
Arg, I was pretty set on a 65 for gaming and sports but a salesman at BB swore up and down I needed a 71 for gaming and sports. So now I'm back to square one. The 71 at 46" is out of my budget and Im scared of pikcing up the 65 and being overwhelmed by motion blur.
post #29 of 76
BB sales recv commission; don't think CC sales do.

That may calm yr frustration. check more B&Ms.

Many on Sharp D64U board have no problem w/ blur & that's 60hz running.

Ask on other "65F board if gaming is sacrificied.
post #30 of 76
I've been looking and looking but can't seem to find a definitive answer. My choice is between the 40" 71 or the 65 and it will ONLY be for games. I've read that the 120hz is actually bad for games, but I've also seen its good since it reduces blur. Does anyone know for sure? What is really better for video games, 120hz or 60hz?
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