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An average guy's thoughts

post #1 of 65
10/26/07 at 9:06am
Thread Starter 
I consider myself an average consumer when it comes to electronics, gadgets, and the new and improved. My friends would beg to differ. I have seen a lot of pictures of the setup of some of the members here and most of them are amazing. I jumped into high def DVD with the A2, only because I found it for $199 back in July. If in July the $199 player was a BR than I would have purchased that.
I have seen a lot of talk about the average consumer, what they understand and what they will buy. I believe that marketing has a lot to do with it, but price is a factor as well. Both of those are obvious. How are you going to buy something if you don't know it exists? If you can't afford it, you can't (shouldn't) get it. My point in all of this is that Price was the factor for me. I had an HD TV, HD Satellite but I wanted more. So the first player that was in my budget I jumped on. The format made no difference. Do I wish I had a duel player? Of course! Do I plan on getting a BR player? Yes, once I can justify the price for my budget.
In my opinion this relates directly to the software sales at 2:1 in favor of BR. I have only purchased a few HD titles because to me the price is too much. The ones I have purchased have only been because of sales or pricing errors. If money was no object I would have both players and any DVD I wanted, but that is not reality. So I got what I could, the most affordable high def player but I do not purchase movies. I just use the online rental companies for my HD titles. Maybe if I could have initially afforded a BR player I could afford BR titles. Therefore this could be the reason that (if everything I have read is correct) even though HDDVD is leading in player sales it is behind in software sales. I hope soon enough I will be able to have both formats and not be bothered by what I can and can't get in high def. I am not a fan of one format over another, just an average guy trying to enjoy high def.
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post #2 of 65
10/26/07 at 9:22am
Good comments! I am still on the fence; but I am so tempted to pick up an A2 or A3 at the pricing they are now. Trouble is that I rarely rent anymore and the store that I do rent at is not into HDM yet.

If HDM was at $15 or less regularly then I would start picking up 3-4 a month. Then again, there are a whack of movies that I would love to have on HDM that are Blu-Ray only at this point (George Romero's Dawn Of The Dead for starters!).

I am waiting to see how the new Samsung dual format player works out. Get me a full featured dual format player than meets Blu-Ray 1.1, full HD-DVD and a great DVD upscaler for around $500 and count me in!

Until then I just can't see snagging two players and having to keep both of them up to date with firmware updates.

It is all about the movies for me so dual format is where I should go. I see Blu-Ray being supported for the long run as Sony has a history of supporting formats they are involved in even if they fail (not saying that Blu-Ray is going to fail but Sony supported Beta and other formats long after others had stopped).

The more I look at this "war" the more convinced I am that both formats are going to co-exist for a long time and that being format "neutral" is the way to go. For many having a PS3 (or a standalone Blu-Ray player) plus a HD-DVD player will be the way to go.

Either I will pick up an A3, a PS3 (if enough great games finally come out for it) or preferably I will pick up a dual player. Man, if Oppo ever comes out with one that has the upscaling of the 981 and at a price point around $500 that would be awesome!
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post #3 of 65
10/26/07 at 9:25am
So how many people had both a VHS and a Betamax machine?
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post #4 of 65
10/26/07 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

So how many people had both a VHS and a Betamax machine?

That's a good point, I don't think there were many...
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post #5 of 65
10/26/07 at 9:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iontyre View Post

That's a good point, I don't think there were many...

Not at $1000 to $1200 - the price of the decks for a long time.
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post #6 of 65
10/26/07 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Not at $1000 to $1200 - the price of the decks for a long time.

What is interesting is that our first VCR as a family cost around $800 and got used more for taping movies off the TV etc than renting. Most people I knew at that time got VHS for the great recording time. It wasn't like it is now where people own so many movies and rent on a weekly basis.
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post #7 of 65
10/26/07 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Not at $1000 to $1200 - the price of the decks for a long time.

Translate those prices to todays $ and I wonder what we have.

I also wonder how many in this forum are actually old enough to really remember the VHS/Beta war.
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post #8 of 65
10/26/07 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Heytow View Post

Translate those prices to todays $ and I wonder what we have.

I do not believe inflation would be 500% or more.

Quote:


I also wonder how many in this forum are actually old enough to really remember the VHS/Beta war.

Probably more than you realize. It lasted for well over 10 years.
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post #9 of 65
10/26/07 at 9:46am
I remember the last great war. The food shortages, the nightly terrors.

Mom didn't know if we'd make it out alive.

I visit the statues in DC yearly. The horror...the horror.
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post #10 of 65
10/26/07 at 9:46am
Transformers couldn't even win a week's sales for HD DVD and in every other area of the world Blu-ray is miles ahead.

I don't see anything that points to both formats being around for a long time.
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post #11 of 65
10/26/07 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post

Transformers couldn't even win a week's sales for HD DVD and in every other area of the world Blu-ray is miles ahead.

I don't see anything that points to both formats being around for a long time.


How many links would you like? I believe i can provide at least 5 and probably closer to 10 that say that the format war will be a stalemate.
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post #12 of 65
10/26/07 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post

Transformers couldn't even win a week's sales for HD DVD and in every other area of the world Blu-ray is miles ahead.

I don't see anything that points to both formats being around for a long time.

Geez Doby would you give it a rest already.
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post #13 of 65
10/26/07 at 10:14am
Although I don't consider someone who is a member and frequents the AVS forum a "average" consumer I agree with most of the post. Software prices and content are very important in this format war.

I think this format is a bit different than Beta vs VHS. If this battle goes on for 10 years neither will win. I knew quite a few people who owned both VHS and Beta players including my family during the 10 year battle. In fact my parents still have movies and players for both formats.
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post #14 of 65
10/26/07 at 10:58am
Price is very important. But, when you are talking about a war where each format has certain studios, available titles is most important to ME.

I chose HD DVD mostly because I could care less about 95% of the movies on BD. I wouldn't take a copy of Spiderman, PotC, etc series if they were free, and they gave me a million dollars. Then you throw in Imports like BotW, Running Scared, etc for HD DVD, it really is a pretty easy choice.

Price
Available Content
Propaganda Fee Approach
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post #15 of 65
10/26/07 at 11:11am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowlt4 View Post

Although I don't consider someone who is a member and frequents the AVS forum a "average" consumer I agree with most of the post. Software prices and content are very important in this format war.

I think this format is a bit different than Beta vs VHS. If this battle goes on for 10 years neither will win. I knew quite a few people who owned both VHS and Beta players including my family during the 10 year battle. In fact my parents still have movies and players for both formats.

I know. I have become less average knowledge wise after becoming a member here. I was not around for the VHS/Beta contest so I am unable to compare that to this. I do however understand what will persuade me to make a purchase now and in the future. I guess I do consider myself above average now as far as knowledge (not being egotistical) and understanding, but as far as spending power and eagerness I do feel that I fall into the average category. Although I could be completely wrong.
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post #16 of 65
10/26/07 at 11:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha21 View Post

Price is very important. But, when you are talking about a war where each format has certain studios, available titles is most important to ME.

I chose HD DVD mostly because I could care less about 95% of the movies on BD. I wouldn't take a copy of Spiderman, PotC, etc series if they were free, and they gave me a million dollars. Then you throw in Imports like BotW, Running Scared, etc for HD DVD, it really is a pretty easy choice.

Price
Available Content
Propaganda Fee Approach

I completly understand. Honestly that is one reason I consederd myself average. When I purchased my first high def player I had no clue what movies/studios supported which format. Except for Sony of course. I just saw that I could get one for a price I could afford. I knew there would be some movies that I couldn't watch in HD but there would be many I could. To me I considerd it as somewhat taking a leap, and hoping more movies I enjoy will be available. I am a movie fan, ranging from all types independent on the studio that releases them. So whether it is Spiderman, Transformers, What Dreams May Come, or Lucky # Slevin I will watch and enjoy.
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post #17 of 65
10/26/07 at 11:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy416 View Post

I consider myself an average consumer when it comes to electronics, gadgets, and the new and improved. My friends would beg to differ. I have seen a lot of pictures of the setup of some of the members here and most of them are amazing. I jumped into high def DVD with the A2, only because I found it for $199 back in July. If in July the $199 player was a BR than I would have purchased that.
I have seen a lot of talk about the average consumer, what they understand and what they will buy. I believe that marketing has a lot to do with it, but price is a factor as well. Both of those are obvious. How are you going to buy something if you don't know it exists? If you can't afford it, you can't (shouldn't) get it. My point in all of this is that Price was the factor for me. I had an HD TV, HD Satellite but I wanted more. So the first player that was in my budget I jumped on. The format made no difference. Do I wish I had a duel player? Of course! Do I plan on getting a BR player? Yes, once I can justify the price for my budget.
In my opinion this relates directly to the software sales at 2:1 in favor of BR. I have only purchased a few HD titles because to me the price is too much. The ones I have purchased have only been because of sales or pricing errors. If money was no object I would have both players and any DVD I wanted, but that is not reality. So I got what I could, the most affordable high def player but I do not purchase movies. I just use the online rental companies for my HD titles. Maybe if I could have initially afforded a BR player I could afford BR titles. Therefore this could be the reason that (if everything I have read is correct) even though HDDVD is leading in player sales it is behind in software sales. I hope soon enough I will be able to have both formats and not be bothered by what I can and can't get in high def. I am not a fan of one format over another, just an average guy trying to enjoy high def.

Good points newguy...pricing is a huge factor...many here think it's not, but it is..especially on the software side.

You pointed out that you "wanted more" as far as high def so ya jumped in....the thing is, does the truly average shopper who has multiple players and a bunch of discs feel that passion too like you did/do or will they be content and pass both formats by regardless if it's $199 or maybe less?

We will see....
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post #18 of 65
10/26/07 at 11:28am
You may be waiting a while. A "great" upscaling player like the XA30 is still over $500, and it only does one HDM format.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoo View Post

...Get me a full featured dual format player than meets Blu-Ray 1.1, full HD-DVD and a great DVD upscaler for around $500 and count me in!...
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post #19 of 65
10/26/07 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Heytow View Post

Translate those prices to todays $ and I wonder what we have.

I also wonder how many in this forum are actually old enough to really remember the VHS/Beta war.

$1k from 1980 is ~$2583 today. It would have cost you over $5K in today's dollars to own both back then. VCR's hit $300 in '85(8 years into the format war) which is $581 today. I think you will see a lot of dual/neutral owners soon as it will be not cost prohibitive. I have an A2 because I snagged it on a $200 deal. I will have BD too as soon as I can get one at $200 or less.
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post #20 of 65
10/26/07 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy416 View Post

I consider myself an average consumer when it comes to electronics, gadgets, and the new and improved. My friends would beg to differ. I have seen a lot of pictures of the setup of some of the members here and most of them are amazing. I jumped into high def DVD with the A2, only because I found it for $199 back in July. If in July the $199 player was a BR than I would have purchased that.
I have seen a lot of talk about the average consumer, what they understand and what they will buy. I believe that marketing has a lot to do with it, but price is a factor as well. Both of those are obvious. How are you going to buy something if you don't know it exists? If you can't afford it, you can't (shouldn't) get it. My point in all of this is that Price was the factor for me. I had an HD TV, HD Satellite but I wanted more. So the first player that was in my budget I jumped on. The format made no difference. Do I wish I had a duel player? Of course! Do I plan on getting a BR player? Yes, once I can justify the price for my budget.
In my opinion this relates directly to the software sales at 2:1 in favor of BR. I have only purchased a few HD titles because to me the price is too much. The ones I have purchased have only been because of sales or pricing errors. If money was no object I would have both players and any DVD I wanted, but that is not reality. So I got what I could, the most affordable high def player but I do not purchase movies. I just use the online rental companies for my HD titles. Maybe if I could have initially afforded a BR player I could afford BR titles. Therefore this could be the reason that (if everything I have read is correct) even though HDDVD is leading in player sales it is behind in software sales. I hope soon enough I will be able to have both formats and not be bothered by what I can and can't get in high def. I am not a fan of one format over another, just an average guy trying to enjoy high def.

One thing you may want to consider is the cost of the player will eventually be small vs the cost of your eventual movie library. To date HD-DVD has not had any software side sales like BD has (BOGO offers) and other than their bundling of freebies with your player purchase that BD quickly matched there is no indication they will.
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post #21 of 65
10/26/07 at 11:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Shumway View Post

Good points newguy...pricing is a huge factor...many here think it's not, but it is..especially on the software side.

You pointed out that you "wanted more" as far as high def so ya jumped in....the thing is, does the truly average shopper who has multiple players and a bunch of discs feel that passion too like you did/do or will they be content and pass both formats by regardless if it's $199 or maybe less?

We will see....

I think age could be a larger variable in this than it may seem. From not being involved with previous wars and maybe getting their first TV and setup, it maybe easier to jump in than to convert a current setup and mindset. My parents who have seen these types of battles before have HD programming but are reluctant to jump into high def DVD's; they want to wait until things are sorted out. If the average shopper is purchasing a new TV (almost all now are HD) they may not own numerous DVD players, and even if they do the players are probably not equipped with the newest connections. They may want to upgrade that as well. Like you said, we will see. I think that with most things, the more people here about something, and see that something, and see other people with that something, they will want that something.
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post #22 of 65
10/26/07 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy416 View Post

I consider myself an average consumer when it comes to electronics, gadgets, and the new and improved. My friends would beg to differ. I have seen a lot of pictures of the setup of some of the members here and most of them are amazing. I jumped into high def DVD with the A2, only because I found it for $199 back in July. If in July the $199 player was a BR than I would have purchased that.
I have seen a lot of talk about the average consumer, what they understand and what they will buy. I believe that marketing has a lot to do with it, but price is a factor as well. Both of those are obvious. How are you going to buy something if you don't know it exists? If you can't afford it, you can't (shouldn't) get it. My point in all of this is that Price was the factor for me. I had an HD TV, HD Satellite but I wanted more. So the first player that was in my budget I jumped on. The format made no difference. Do I wish I had a duel player? Of course! Do I plan on getting a BR player? Yes, once I can justify the price for my budget.
In my opinion this relates directly to the software sales at 2:1 in favor of BR. I have only purchased a few HD titles because to me the price is too much. The ones I have purchased have only been because of sales or pricing errors. If money was no object I would have both players and any DVD I wanted, but that is not reality. So I got what I could, the most affordable high def player but I do not purchase movies. I just use the online rental companies for my HD titles. Maybe if I could have initially afforded a BR player I could afford BR titles. Therefore this could be the reason that (if everything I have read is correct) even though HDDVD is leading in player sales it is behind in software sales. I hope soon enough I will be able to have both formats and not be bothered by what I can and can't get in high def. I am not a fan of one format over another, just an average guy trying to enjoy high def.

Thank you for your comments.

I have always said that the more accessible format is the better format. Both formats look great on 42 inch HDTVs and sound great on $200 HTiBs - both of which are way above average.

The one with cheaper HW prices and cheaper SW prices will be the better format to me. The one that MR. Average Consumer feels is worth buying is the that will win. Right now its neither. HD DVD is near with HW, and BR is near with BOGO (but most of that ended).
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post #23 of 65
10/26/07 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarpon View Post

$1k from 1980 is ~$2583 today. It would have cost you over $5K in today's dollars to own both back then. VCR's hit $300 in '85(8 years into the format war) which is $581 today. I think you will see a lot of dual/neutral owners soon as it will be not cost prohibitive. I have an A2 because I snagged it on a $200 deal. I will have BD too as soon as I can get one at $200 or less.

Can you provide a link to that $300 priced VCR in 1985 please.
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post #24 of 65
10/26/07 at 12:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamus View Post

One thing you may want to consider is the cost of the player will eventually be small vs the cost of your eventual movie library. To date HD-DVD has not had any software side sales like BD has (BOGO offers) and other than their bundling of freebies with your player purchase that BD quickly matched there is no indication they will.

You are correct, and an excellent point. I do have quit a few DVD's my collection but, most of them just collect dust now. But the value of my collection does outweigh the value of my DVD player. I used to purchase DVD's all of the time, now it is extremely rare. I would justify the price of the DVD with the rental cost and determine it was not much more just to own it. Now with the online rentals the price per rental for me is nominal and my calculated savings with the purchase has diminished. Not to mention realizing that I really didn't watch each DVD more than once, honestly some are still in the wrapper.
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post #25 of 65
10/26/07 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Can you provide a link to that $300 priced VCR in 1985 please.


Hope this helps...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...v25/ai_4273781
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post #26 of 65
10/26/07 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Shumway View Post

Hope this helps...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...v25/ai_4273781

Quote:


But last year 22% of all VCRs sold for less than $300 while 56% cost between $300 and $499. Despite the introduction of higher-end stereo VCRs and camcorders, only 8% of purchases were for VCRs costing more than $700.

OK - that fits - 22% below $300 . . . 78% above $300

So you really believe that J6P is going to buy 2 players - one of each? One for $198 and the other for $488? = almost $700 to be able to see whatever HD movie he wants.

Nope - just looked - no pigs flying today.
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post #27 of 65
10/26/07 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy416 View Post

I think age could be a larger variable in this than it may seem. From not being involved with previous wars and maybe getting their first TV and setup, it maybe easier to jump in than to convert a current setup and mindset. My parents who have seen these types of battles before have HD programming but are reluctant to jump into high def DVD's; they want to wait until things are sorted out. If the average shopper is purchasing a new TV (almost all now are HD) they may not own numerous DVD players, and even if they do the players are probably not equipped with the newest connections. They may want to upgrade that as well. Like you said, we will see. I think that with most things, the more people here about something, and see that something, and see other people with that something, they will want that something.

Sorry, I disagree about the age idea. I am well over 50 and have both formats (have had them for over a year). I think it's going to be price that does it, pure and simple. Players and media both. What those price points are is anybody's guess. And if we don't reach that magic price point relatively soon both formats will be long gone.
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post #28 of 65
10/26/07 at 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

OK - that fits - 22% below $300 . . . 78% above $300

So you really believe that J6P is going to buy 2 players - one of each? One for $198 and the other for $488? = almost $700 to be able to see whatever HD movie he wants.

Nope - just looked - no pigs flying today.

Who me??? Hey I'm just the messenger..you asked for a link and I found one...
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post #29 of 65
10/26/07 at 12:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stewa View Post

Sorry, I disagree about the age idea. I am well over 50 and have both formats (have had them for over a year). I think it's going to be price that does it, pure and simple. Players and media both. What those price points are is anybody's guess. And if we don't reach that magic price point relatively soon both formats will be long gone.

Price is number one in my opinion as well. The age variable is a theory that I haven't seen here before, jsut thought I would throw it out there.
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post #30 of 65
10/26/07 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

OK - that fits - 22% below $300 . . . 78% above $300

So you really believe that J6P is going to buy 2 players - one of each? One for $198 and the other for $488? = almost $700 to be able to see whatever HD movie he wants.

Nope - just looked - no pigs flying today.

By soon I mean holidays '08 and I would say it would be enthusiasts at that point and j6p later. You should be able to own both or a dual by the end 08 for under $400.
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