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Dali Helicon 400 Mk2 Vs. Focal JM.Lab 1027 Be

post #1 of 16
10/26/07 at 9:28am
Thread Starter 
I am totally torn here. I appreciate anyone imparting some insight. I have auditioned Helicon 400 Mk2 and Focal JM.Lab 1027 Be separately (I couldn't find a dealer carrying both brands). First was Helicon. It was good. It paired with Plinus 9200 and Rega Saturn. I played some songs like 100 years by Five for Fighting and some classical like 1812 overture and Four seasons. I felt it had nice imaging. The bass was a bit lack of focus. It seemed like it was a few steps behind. Overall, tune was quite close to reality but a tad dry.

A few days later, I went to another dealer. I first listened to Focal Jm.Lab 918. It paired with Esoteric SA60 and Burmester Int Amp. A solid performer all around but nothing really jumped out to catch you. The sales said let's listen to 1027 otherwise I would feel short-changed. So we went to another room, this one was 1027 paired with Burmester CD and Burmester AMP. I listened and I said "wow". CD player didn't have as much detail as Esoteric but overall sound was sweet, very sweet. BTW, it was Diana Krall. I felt like she was singing in front of me. I remember someone said that Focal's soundstage is relatively small when compared to others. It seemed like that way or may be the room wasn't that wide.

Long story short, I don't know which way I want to go. Yes, Dali MSPR is $1300 cheaper than Focal. My original budget was $4000, so it is really being stretched here. But I don't want to put price as my #1 factor. I want to make a reasonable balanced decision.

What would you do? Thanks again.
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post #2 of 16
10/26/07 at 10:42am
Are you sure you listened to the Helicon mkII. I do not believe dealers have even recieved them yet?

And if you did, then they were probably brand spankin new and had not received the 100 hour break-in that they require.
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post #3 of 16
10/26/07 at 12:45pm
you are going to have to go back and listen a couple more times. There are nuances that you will pick up on that you will be able to use to leverage a personal decision out of this. You really want to make sure you get the right one. Of course, if the dealers are nice, see if you can get them to do an in-home audition and perhaps A/B them in your home. Also, what electronics do you intend to run these speakers on? Perhaps it would be best for you to pair the speakers up with the electronics you intend to purchase specifically for the speakers -- you want to ensure good system synergy after all.
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post #4 of 16
10/26/07 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason530 View Post

I am totally torn here. I appreciate anyone imparting some insight. I have auditioned Helicon 400 Mk2 and Focal JM.Lab 1027 Be separately (I couldn't find a dealer carrying both brands). First was Helicon. It was good. It paired with Plinus 9200 and Rega Saturn. I played some songs like 100 years by Five for Fighting and some classical like 1812 overture and Four seasons. I felt it had nice imaging. The bass was a bit lack of focus. It seemed like it was a few steps behind. Overall, tune was quite close to reality but a tad dry.

A few days later, I went to another dealer. I first listened to Focal Jm.Lab 918. It paired with Esoteric SA60 and Burmester Int Amp. A solid performer all around but nothing really jumped out to catch you. The sales said let's listen to 1027 otherwise I would feel short-changed. So we went to another room, this one was 1027 paired with Burmester CD and Burmester AMP. I listened and I said "wow". CD player didn't have as much detail as Esoteric but overall sound was sweet, very sweet. BTW, it was Diana Krall. I felt like she was singing in front of me. I remember someone said that Focal's soundstage is relatively small when compared to others. It seemed like that way or may be the room wasn't that wide.

Long story short, I don't know which way I want to go. Yes, Dali MSPR is $1300 cheaper than Focal. My original budget was $4000, so it is really being stretched here. But I don't want to put price as my #1 factor. I want to make a reasonable balanced decision.

What would you do? Thanks again.

After reading your post, I think you do know which speaker you want after one audition when you wrote, "So we went to another room, this one was 1027 paired with Burmester CD and Burmester AMP. I listened and I said "wow". CD player didn't have as much detail as Esoteric but overall sound was sweet, very sweet." It sounds like these speakers really caught your attention and ears? This is a good thing.

There are so many variables when auditioning speakers. Equipment, room acoustics, sonic memory and the list goes on. Obviously the best case scenario is to bring them home and give them an audition in your own home with your own equipment. Sometimes that is idealistic.

The JM product you liked (1027 Be) I think lists at $7,500 and the Dali Helcon 400 version 1 lists at $4,970 and the MKII at $6,300 per pair.

http://www.audioexcellence.ca/featur...lectra1027.pdf

You also wrote that the difference in price was $1,300 which if my math is correct, that amount would be the difference between the Focal 1027 Be ($7,500) and the Helcon MKII $(6,300) which would probably mean you did listen to the newer Helicon speaker. I do not know if you adhere to the speaker break in theory, but Dali does recommend a 100 hour break in period. It's a valid question to ask how many hours they have on them at least in my world.

One thing that I would comment on is I've never heard anyone describe the Dali Helicon's as dry. I do not dispute what you heard, but just want to provide some input with my experience. I've had the Helicon 400's in my system for quite some time and they are very musical speakers and not dry in the least. Zissou who I respect immeasurably, wrote about the Dali 400's "They are supremely musical speakers but on the warm side of neutral. There's a little more bloom in the midbass and a slight euphonic colouration in the highs that doesn't quite sit well with me but they are a very seductive speaker. Don't think you'd go wrong with them unless you have some strong room nodes where they tend to overemphasize certain frequencies."

It does sound like you've found your speaker of choice comparing these two after one session. I'd go back and listen again and see if you think and feel the same and then decide from there. Both are excellent choices and much would be dependent upon personal tastes and cash flow.

Much luck,
Charles
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post #5 of 16
10/26/07 at 4:20pm
and bring a couple of your own cd's to listen to them with.
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post #6 of 16
10/26/07 at 4:57pm
I may be biased I admit since I have never heard the dali speakers but I am a very happy 1027Be owner. IMO they are fantastic and are capable of making fantastic music. I have heard them with several different combos, including my own and I they sounded great each time. But I agree that more listening is probably in order. Just know, given the right equipment, the JM's can sound insanely good. IE: pathos and dartzeel. They can also sound great with more modest gear(bryston is what I have now). Good luck and post what your final choice was.
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post #7 of 16
10/26/07 at 5:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

Good luck and post what your final choice was.

My bets on the JM's!!
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post #8 of 16
10/27/07 at 1:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Are you sure you listened to the Helicon mkII. I do not believe dealers have even recieved them yet?

And if you did, then they were probably brand spankin new and had not received the 100 hour break-in that they require.

Yes, at least according to the dealer. He said it was straight from RMAF, hence, it was broken in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mozvz View Post

After reading your post, I think you do know which speaker you want after one audition when you wrote, "So we went to another room, this one was 1027 paired with Burmester CD and Burmester AMP. I listened and I said "wow". CD player didn't have as much detail as Esoteric but overall sound was sweet, very sweet." It sounds like these speakers really caught your attention and ears? This is a good thing.

There are so many variables when auditioning speakers. Equipment, room acoustics, sonic memory and the list goes on. Obviously the best case scenario is to bring them home and give them an audition in your own home with your own equipment. Sometimes that is idealistic.

The JM product you liked (1027 Be) I think lists at $7,500 and the Dali Helcon 400 version 1 lists at $4,970 and the MKII at $6,300 per pair.

You also wrote that the difference in price was $1,300 which if my math is correct, that amount would be the difference between the Focal 1027 Be ($7,500) and the Helcon MKII $(6,300) which would probably mean you did listen to the newer Helicon speaker. I do not know if you adhere to the speaker break in theory, but Dali does recommend a 100 hour break in period. It's a valid question to ask how many hours they have on them at least in my world.

One thing that I would comment on is I've never heard anyone describe the Dali Helicon's as dry. I do not dispute what you heard, but just want to provide some input with my experience. I've had the Helicon 400's in my system for quite some time and they are very musical speakers and not dry in the least. Zissou who I respect immeasurably, wrote about the Dali 400's "They are supremely musical speakers but on the warm side of neutral. There's a little more bloom in the midbass and a slight euphonic colouration in the highs that doesn't quite sit well with me but they are a very seductive speaker. Don't think you'd go wrong with them unless you have some strong room nodes where they tend to overemphasize certain frequencies."

It does sound like you've found your speaker of choice comparing these two after one session. I'd go back and listen again and see if you think and feel the same and then decide from there. Both are excellent choices and much would be dependent upon personal tastes and cash flow.

Much luck,
Charles

Thanks for the analysis.

I will definitely use another opportunity to audition more. I agree that deep down I might have developed some sort of a bias already.

Also responding to other comments, I would like to do an in-home audition but Dali and JM Lab are from different dealers. That makes things difficult.
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post #9 of 16
10/27/07 at 4:42pm
Thread Starter 
Just want to provide a quick update: I have set up more audition next weekend. I am in San Francisco for the next couple of days. I went to Audio Vision for a quick session. The manager and I had an in-depth chat about Dali and Focal JM.Lab. It definitely provides me much more insight. I will provide somemore next week.
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post #10 of 16
10/27/07 at 10:08pm
FWIW - take your own source material (CD's, etc.) to sample with - preferably material you are very familiar with - and as much variety as possible - soft, loud, emphasizing various instruments, male vocals, female vocals. Listen for as long as possible too.

Take what the sales person is saying with a grain (or two) of salt - especially if they know your choices are something in their store versus something in another store!!
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post #11 of 16
10/28/07 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason530 View Post

Just want to provide a quick update: I have set up more audition next weekend. I am in San Francisco for the next couple of days. I went to Audio Vision for a quick session. The manager and I had an in-depth chat about Dali and Focal JM.Lab. It definitely provides me much more insight. I will provide somemore next week.

Glad to hear that you are taking your time and really making an informed choice. By doing it this way you will have long term satisfaction for sure. Looking forward to hearing what happens.
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post #12 of 16
10/28/07 at 11:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason530 View Post

I am totally torn here. I appreciate anyone imparting some insight. I have auditioned Helicon 400 Mk2 and Focal JM.Lab 1027 Be separately (I couldn't find a dealer carrying both brands). First was Helicon. It was good. It paired with Plinus 9200 and Rega Saturn. I played some songs like 100 years by Five for Fighting and some classical like 1812 overture and Four seasons. I felt it had nice imaging. The bass was a bit lack of focus. It seemed like it was a few steps behind. Overall, tune was quite close to reality but a tad dry.

What would you do? Thanks again.

Alright, so I carry both product lines and I recently received the new Helicon 400mkII so maybe I can help you here.

The Dalis Helicon 400mkIIs have a wide enveloping soundstage with very smooth highs. Ribbon tweeters have wide horizontal dispersion by design, so they really do a great job of creating a big sweet spot. The new mkII model has redesigned woofers and the boominess around 60hz is gone! Much better blended from top to bottom. Very easy in terms of placement (no toe in required). However, they do need some space from the back of the speaker to the back wall to blend everything properly. This new design is a true contender. The Helicons are typically warmer sounding than the other Dalis Ive heard/used. The Euphonia MS4s sound closer to the Electra 1027Be than the Helicon does.

Now the Focal Electra 1027Be is one heck of a speaker. The midrange is maybe slightly on the lean side, so as to not cause any congestion with the higher and lower frequencies. Everything just sounds clean and transparent. The bass is super tight and responsive, though doesnt seem to reach into the depths. The Be tweeter is the finest metal dome on the planet, with an ideal ratio of stiffness and weight. The speaker is front/bottom ported so the back wall isnt too much of a issue. The inverted tweeter acts more like a woofer than a tweeter, so you can achieve a wide soundstage with this as well.

One of the huge issues here is amplification. The Helicons can be driven on an Arcam receiver, the Electras need an amplifier (though both would benefit from good amps). I believe the 1027s can go into the 3 ohm region, so they need a good amp.

These are both superb products from great companies in terms of product quality and from a perspective of doing business with (this is important to customers as well). The ONLY way to decide is to listen to both and decide for yourself.
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post #13 of 16
10/28/07 at 11:21pm
One other thing.

Make sure you are listening to both speakers on transparent amplification like Bryston, Krell, Parasound, Sim, etc.

Avoid tubes and strange off brands because they might "affect" the actual sound of the speakers. Remember you want to compare speaker sound, not the speaker AND amp sound.
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post #14 of 16
10/29/07 at 1:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioArchitect View Post

Alright, so I carry both product lines and I recently received the new Helicon 400mkII so maybe I can help you here.

The Dalis Helicon 400mkIIs have a wide enveloping soundstage with very smooth highs. Ribbon tweeters have wide horizontal dispersion by design, so they really do a great job of creating a big sweet spot. The new mkII model has redesigned woofers and the boominess around 60hz is gone! Much better blended from top to bottom. Very easy in terms of placement (no toe in required). However, they do need some space from the back of the speaker to the back wall to blend everything properly. This new design is a true contender. The Helicons are typically warmer sounding than the other Dalis Ive heard/used. The Euphonia MS4s sound closer to the Electra 1027Be than the Helicon does.

Now the Focal Electra 1027Be is one heck of a speaker. The midrange is maybe slightly on the lean side, so as to not cause any congestion with the higher and lower frequencies. Everything just sounds clean and transparent. The bass is super tight and responsive, though doesnt seem to reach into the depths. The Be tweeter is the finest metal dome on the planet, with an ideal ratio of stiffness and weight. The speaker is front/bottom ported so the back wall isnt too much of a issue. The inverted tweeter acts more like a woofer than a tweeter, so you can achieve a wide soundstage with this as well.

One of the huge issues here is amplification. The Helicons can be driven on an Arcam receiver, the Electras need an amplifier (though both would benefit from good amps). I believe the 1027s can go into the 3 ohm region, so they need a good amp.

These are both superb products from great companies in terms of product quality and from a perspective of doing business with (this is important to customers as well). The ONLY way to decide is to listen to both and decide for yourself.

Thanks for the feedback. In some ways you have helped me, in other ways you haven't. In terms sound quality, both sound equally enticing to me. The issue is port. On the same day that I tested Focal JM, I tried Vienna Acoustics, which was a rear ported speakers. There was about at least 3 ft of distance from the wall if not more. Music sounded muffed. Switched back to Focal JM, it was like someone just pulled a piece of paper out of the speakers way. I am sure speaker's quality have many ways to do with that. But rear ported speakers do kind of give me a pause. Or course, I didn't sense any muffed sound when I tested the Helicon MKII.

By the way, I am using AMP for the speakers. I played HT set up for 5 years. I want to go back to a more traditional audio experience: A simple two speakers, AMP and CD players. It is for acoustic and vanity reason.

In short, more tests coming up. Thank you for the input.
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post #15 of 16
11/6/07 at 5:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason530 View Post

Thanks for the feedback. In some ways you have helped me, in other ways you haven't. In terms sound quality, both sound equally enticing to me. The issue is port. On the same day that I tested Focal JM, I tried Vienna Acoustics, which was a rear ported speakers. There was about at least 3 ft of distance from the wall if not more. Music sounded muffed. Switched back to Focal JM, it was like someone just pulled a piece of paper out of the speakers way. I am sure speaker's quality have many ways to do with that. But rear ported speakers do kind of give me a pause. Or course, I didn't sense any muffed sound when I tested the Helicon MKII.

By the way, I am using AMP for the speakers. I played HT set up for 5 years. I want to go back to a more traditional audio experience: A simple two speakers, AMP and CD players. It is for acoustic and vanity reason.

In short, more tests coming up. Thank you for the input.

Mason, do you have any more feedback? Have you made any decisions?
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post #16 of 16
11/6/07 at 9:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Mason, do you have any more feedback? Have you made any decisions?

I did go back to audition Helicon 400 MK2. I haven't done that for Focal JM Lab. For sure, I can confirm that I like the bass and its warmth. I need to audition Focal JM before reporting the final verdict. I tested with 4 different integrated amps. For sure, this test has made me second guessing my initial choice of amps - Plinius 9200. I found it lack of detail at higher frequency. That was compared against lesser amps like Primare I30, Cambrige 840 and better amp like Mastersound 845.

In some way, I do feel that I am getting closer to a decision for a set of speakers. At the end, it is a matter of balance between dream and reality - price and preference.

The thing is that I have a lot of time on my side. The new set up is supposed to go into the new house. However, it is being closed much later than expected. Thus, I am in transition at this time. Definitely, it is not the time to place a new piece in where I live now. Of course, the dealer said it doesn't matter.

Next stop is audition between Simaudio-Dali and Simaudio Focal JM.
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