Black Diamond from Screen Innovations? - Page 51

Dude! I think you have the screen on backwards!!!

And if your a Rewards Silver Plat Member its 45 Day Return Policy...

I have learned that in this hobby, you often pay a big premium for incremental improvements. This stinks but it is a fact of life.

From what I can tell from your pictures, the BD did make a real difference in the dark and very dark pictures. It made a differnce with the blinds open too, but that does not translate into a watchable picture.

To be honest, the differences in those pictures, are to me, pretty significant from an on screen contrast perspective. This is the kind of difference some people would be happy to pay for.

I wonder whether you might be better off with a smaller sized .8 BD screen.

Try zooming in a bit and see how much of a difference a smaller image size makes.

It's only a 100 inch screen. Going much smaller defeats the purpose of having front projection so I'm not going to do that. That's too much to give up to have the privilege of owning an over hyped screen.

If I changed screens I would get one that didn't have the sparklies/graininess and hot spotting that the BDIIs have.

You could sell your screen but I suspect that you would take a beating on the price.

In your room, you are going to need a screen with gain (that and good window treatments). Most screens with gain have sparklies/graininess. Generally, the higher the gain, the more sparklies/graininess. The Dalite High Power (which I own) doesn't have these issues but it does have its own set of limitations. I think that High Power would also get washed out with your blinds open as in your first set of pictures. In the other two (dark and darker) I bet that the High Power would be brighter but would have less contrast (blacks would be blacker on your BD). But, for things like sports, I bet the HP would be better overall. For movies with the lights off and the room dark, I bet the BD would be better. A High Power would be much less expensive.

SI's problem is that their videos are designed to show their screens in the best circumstances with lights properly placed. They are not inaccurate. But, they are misleading because of the claims of ligth rejection and the like. I think that Fraisa's pictures accurately show his setup, but they are by no means a torture test for any screen. Shine a flashlight on a BD it is unwatchable, just like any other screen out there.

That said, I am still impressed by the .8 BD screen.

The SI videos are deceptive, they are like infomercials. All that's missing is Billy Mays (R.I.P.) in a cocaine induced frenzy yelling: Wait!!! There's More!!! Buy your BDII today and throw away your expensive masking system forever!!!

A company reputable like Stewart Filmscreen would never have videos like these.

Actually, they post Photos in ALL their magazine ads that do exactly the same thing.....all the time.

But Guys....this is Business. You don't / won't get far illustrating your weak points. You highlight your strengths. Consumers have been lamenting what "They are NOT told" prior to purchasing something "special" since the first pair of Moccasins traded for a sharp knife resulted in a severed finger.

The BD screens do in fact do a far FAR better job than a standard Gray....and appreciably better than a Fire Hawk, Gray Wolf, or almost anything else in that category. That promotional hype and illustrations that do not show anything but ideal circumstances are used.....that's the way it is / must be at the Corporate decision making level...all the way down to where the Dealer who must stay in business.

This must sound peculiar coming from me, someone who exalts "other" ambient light solutions, but they / I do share a common goal. Making for better viewing experiences in ambient light levels than what people can...or normally should have a right to expect. Yes...my images try their darnedest to show things exactly as they are....and I always send a Man to do a Man's job "PJ wise" as far as illuminating a specific screen, but all in all, it's all the same.

Put your best foot forward and keep the one with a hole in the sole behind you.

All this would be moot if the Screen's in question did not cost enough that they should have Ignition Keys. But they do, and because of that, and because there are some things that potentially will affect the End User's satisfaction index that are not clearly stated or presented with complete accuracy, a Thread like this can serve a good purpose.

This is a Forum dedicated to "discussion", and when a Thread is obviously posted up to promote something, even by a AVS Sponsor, it can be expected to garner some adversity.

But also keep in mind that there are / have been a LOT more people expounding upon the virtues of the BD line-up than there have been calls for somebody to "Get a Rope".

Myself, I like having Mfg Screens around that cost a Poop-load if they purport to do something extraordinary. Makes what I do seem all the more valid an option.

OK....so give fraisa a chance here to re-post some /more accurate depictions before all ya all start loading Firewood around the Stake. I think you'll still see some impressive images.

This is why someone who is considering a SI Screen needs to have there dealer do a home visit,
So the dealer see's the room and conditions
The dealer right away would recommend what type of screen to offer.
I like the fact that you can get an SI Screen from Best Buy,
But if it was me and i was buying a screen like this it would be thru a Dealer...

I saw this screen at BB with a JVC projector and was not impressed at all. I was curious to compare the BD to my small HP screen with my Old 720p DLP projector so I asked for a demo. It was better than the HP in the blacks but the brights suffered even in a dark room. Unfortunately the sales person was as knowledgeable as could be and had no idea what gain the screen was. After the unimpressive demo I asked the price and left with tears in my eyes from laughing so hard! I guess in the proper environment with a bright projector (not a JVC strong point I understand) it could be cool, but for those of us with real world income, this would not be the best bang for the buck.

Ya some BB Mag stores have an older Generation of SI Screen in the .8 gain. the BD I,

The Current Gen of BD II has extensive improvements on the .8 gain screen.

I too have seen an old gen .8 at the bb store in Ann Arbor Mi and i can clearly tell its the older Gen..

And i have a very very anal eye when it comes to the New vs the Old...

What did they change? I have some large .8 samples that say BD II. Is there a revision past those? I'd be interested to see if there is and if it addresses what I don't like about it.

BB guy said it real fast so it would not sound so bad $2500.

Sounds like the setup was quote poor... I have a Pioneer FPJ-1 (which is a JVS RS-2) and a BD II 0.8 and the picture quality is stunning, especially in a dark room. Yes, it does handle room light quite well, but with the light off, the picture is like "watching life thru a window"... (my wifes comment... and no, she has no doesn't know anything about HT, but she can tell bad from good).

Ya the BB in Ann Arbour had the BD I .8 gain...
Thats the first genereation
Second GEN is BD II
So when you go to a BB Mag Store you need to find out if its BD I or BD II...
I can tell soon as i look at it ...
There is no Rev past BD II

According to Blake from SI, the latest is 3rd generation, but it still says BD II. It reduces the sparkles and better picture quality then 2nd generation.

you are correct...

How do I know which generation I have, out if curiosity? I purchased a BDII at the start of 2010; is there any way to know?

OK fraisa,

135''s diagonal shown in both muted and some pretty intense light...including overhead "floods", not Spots.

This first series was taken at 3 different levels of ambient light, w/no attempt to mitigate such lighting. Even the overhead Floods.



This next series was all taken in the same lighting, but done so as to show the difference "Zoomed Framing" can make as far as the exposure. In the "Long Shot" w/Iris wide open, you get an exacting view of both the level of the Room's lighting as well as an accurate view of the Screen's reflective light output. Obvious is the image's overall improvement when the camera's metering is focused on the screen's framed content alone.


I wish I could say the image looked as good in the long shot as it does when "framed' but that would not be.....an accurate statement. In the long shots, the camera is 'averaging out" the light sources, and giving preference to the brightest areas.

These last collages are all framed "Dark Room" shots intended to show Contrast and image quality. Pertinent in that if a screen is gonna look good in ambient light it must also excel in controlled lighting.







Please note the last shot in the lower right...the "Reconstructing the Arm' one. See the number of visible individual "Bone Bands"? I've been taking / viewing Screen shots for years and so far have never seen anyone...with any PJ or camera, be able to catch that level of detail. PJ Contrast and resolution combined with screen gain/color all must balance to get that sort of detail.

Ok...so these shots are up....let's see you post something similar. Choose yer poision. BD .08 or 1.4 - 1.8. Pick the Generation.

For comparative purposes only, of course.

Awww....gotta toss in these last ones too.

First 135" in obscene direct lighting:







Same screen at 80 degrees off axis (in the dark)



Now if you ca show any BD screen that can handle such "direct lighting" in such close proximity...and directly forward of the Screen, I'm certain there will be no more "calling out".


And lastly...the Biggun....225" diagonal w/Side spots and only 700 lumens (JVC RS-2 @ 27' throw). To die for stuff....





Belly up to the bar.....

I saw this about the 1.4 version but has it been reported on the .8 version also?

What kind of screens/paints are these?

[quote=MississippiMan;19612927]



Please note the last shot in the lower right...the "Reconstructing the Arm' one. See the number of visible individual "Bone Bands"? I've been taking / viewing Screen shots for years and so far have never seen anyone...with any PJ or camera, be able to catch that level of detail. PJ Contrast and resolution combined with screen gain/color all must balance to get that sort of detail.

Ok...so these shots are up....let's see you post something similar. Choose yer poision. BD .08 or 1.4 - 1.8. Pick the Generation.

For comparative purposes only, of course. [quote]
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I posted this pic last year BDII 1.4 gain JVC (RS10) lights off what are we comparing?

Hey Kevin 3000
been a while
Hows it going..

[quote=Kevin 3000;19614705]
WOW!!!

That sure looks better than Mississipiman's screen shot! Either you have a better screen, or you have a better camera!

Anyone had a professional calibrate their system with an off the screen high end (i.e. PR650 or better) meter?

Just Curious why you would ask this hear?

[quote=myz350;19617625]
THats one benifit of a Black Diamond Screen and a Camera thats better than mine...
Think i am going to put a new Digital Camera on the santa list
Kev thanks for coming to da Party

Those "Close Up Zoom" shots don't say anything but that the Camera is helping things look better through interpolating pixels and augmenting contrast.
My shots are all taken in conditions and circumstances that are NOT intended to help make things look better than they are...but EXACTLY how they appear.

frasia, I asked if you'd reciprocate. If you do not, (...and you have not...)then that speaks volumes.

You/none of you want to get into a "Eye Candy" war on this subject with me. I've made screen shots that look as good as or better than "35 mm quality Studio rushes" off of "every" screen I've ever constructed, and with low lumen 720p units. That's easy....and I'm bettin' you/all you know just how easy it is. This Thread and it's Screen/s is supposed to be about "AMBIENT LIGHT PERFORMANCE", not "Zoomed In Portraits" That is why Screen shots taken optimally offer NO real approximation as to how good the image under real conditions are. Add the room into the equation or you can only call the whole thing just an exercise in camera wizardry.

Do you, any of us watch the Screen from 6' away or closer? That's exactly what your images portend to show. Well...of course with the smaller sizes of the BD screens being shown, perhaps you could....but consider this;

Not a single shot I have posted is on a screen under 120" diagonal, and many are in excess of 130"s All were taken in a good deal of ambient light. The shot above sure was not.

I did not intend for this to become a pissin' contest. I actually made my suggestions to help frasia show what the BD could (...or could not?) do. I posted my own images after there was no response. The response that generated is in keeping with what has unfortunately become the norm.

I actually thought it would turn out differently. I know the BD Screens can perform....but how well? Truth or Dare....either way it's something you should address, or stop promoting.

Send me a PM. I'm not one here to promote one thing over another.

Hey Miss,
I wont be posting anything for a few days
i am just swamped with other things.
A couple of big projects on the go....

So ya its going to be a couple of days before I get the time to post something

Will say this ,
after looking at your pics my room is no where near as bright as yours ,
When i turn my overhead spots off...

I really apprietiate your help and comments regarding how to better screen shots...


Also just want to let you know i have huge Respect for your setup and what you have accomplished with a paint based solution....

Again its going to be a few days
Fraisa

Thank you frasia,

I really did feel that your intentions were above board, and getting too adverse a response. Honestly, it's the response I might get from others who do not/can not see the purpose of my posts that i worried about more.

I can wait...I know it'll come. These days it does not good to leave anything unclear, as to some people's tendency to jump and bite on anything that is seemingly "out of sorts".

In keeping with your post, I'll refrain from adding any more content, and look forward to your images.