Black Diamond from Screen Innovations? - Page 59

Anybody knows the polarization extinction ratio of the Black Diamonds.

Or other screens? Must be above average like the bright room WINNER is.

i think what we have here is a disagreement on the "amount" of ambient light folks are trying to "show" the BD can handle.

daylight and incandescent are two entirely different animals.

what can work very well in large amounts of incandescent light can falter ungracefully when daylight is present.

the picture that msm continues to show of is (not sure of the projector make/model...) is a BD in broad daylight. this is a worst case scenario at best and most here would agree... if you a bought cheap PJ for viewing in this kind of light and then paid 3K for a BD...
you probably need to have your head examined.

what fraisa and k3k are trying to show is how well the BD can handle large amount of ambient incandescent light. one in a well controlled room and the other similiar to many family rooms.

now if fraisa and K3k were willing to show some screenshots of how the BD can handle daylight... then we'd have more rounded info to go by.
i don't think that either of their setups are setup to do that though.

and really, many would argue why should they given how much incandescent light they already show... certainly more that most would dare to.

lastly, since SI seems to be saying that the BD beats out other white screens in controlled viewing...
...then i say, "let the BD vs white screen controlled screenshot war begin!"

oops. it already has...

except that only fraisa and k3k are willing to show their cards.

Trust me on the to do list for 2011 is get screen shots of
BD in a room thats ambient light comes from Sunlight...
Even am thinking of taking a screen outside and putting an image on it during the day...

Till that day comes this is the best i can do....

Hey Blake,
Thought i remembered seeing a video of a resturant that had a
blackdiamond on there patio
Any chance of getting a screen shot of it
to really put this arguement to rest....?

i'm still waiting on that 5000 lumen 10,000:1 1080p PJ to show up on my doorstep

Fraisa,

The problem is your setting too low a standard as far as room lighting, then calling it a "Winner". Until images are taken that show obvious balance of color off walls/ Furniture, Draperies, etc, instead of the brownish or reddish cast hue low level Incandescent light presents, or the dull, suppressed colors of muted Sunlight under low ISO delivers, your not gonna convince anyone that a "Winner" has sprang forth from such mediocrity. Simply put, High Ambient Light means the "Room" is illuminated enough to let you see "the Room"...including colors, detail, and such.

You see, every time you switch to showing screenies to CGI or Sports Content, the light levels you set in the room are increased because you know they can be. But every "Film" shot shows "brown/yellow/ or Gray surroundings in the lower light levels you must step it down to so as to show any decent contrast at all. And while that might actually be a big improvement over a Matte White screen under the exact same lighting, it's just not anything earth shattering compared to the buy in cost. That's what has many so willing to call out the performance claims as of late. Mush has been claimed, even touted as fact and a "Winner", yet Where's The Beef?

It's pretty obvious....and nothing so bad as to have to slink away about. But just the same, no one is gonna wake up and listen to a Rooster whose crowing sounds like a Duck quacking either

But there must be a reference to go by, and so far SI-BD has not provided anything either consistent or accurate enough to pass muster beyond the determinations of those who need a BD so bad they MUST go down that road. Under that premise, yes...it works for them and they are happy.

I've been hoping that the recent opportunities you have had would do so...and a few shots have indeed shown well, but some....a majority in fact....not so much.

BTW, just got word repairs are done. AM appointment. Morning Sunlight through "Sliding Glass Doors". White Ceiling. NO DRAPES pulled.

Actually....I'm a little nervous.

Hey Miss
Sorry should have mentioned it above the pic.
Wasnt trying to say Hey Look at this amazing screen shot,
but that this is the only screen shot i have with side Real Non Artifical Light.....

Posted back on page 54 Daylight pics......

Will the Black Diamond lose its Bright Room CROWN to a teeny tiny excuse for a Projector Screen we shall soon see......

Help me out here I have this burning question -

Would someone be in direct violation of one`s own ethos by admitting to installing hundreds of screens thus by definition classed as a professional, thereby. as laid down by the DIY rules "Professionals in the Home Theater business may post here, but any promotion of products or services is prohibited" so if one`s promoting one`s products/services one`s posts of that nature should be deleted?

No need to argue semantics just read between the lines.

Mods may have to delete this if inappropriate....

Just after clarification....

One thing that appears not to be appreciated is that no light colored screen is capable of preserving contrast in a bright room. Why? Because a light colored screen will always appear to be light colored in a bright room. So, to show a football game (or something like that) looking good in a bright room really isn't a big deal and is NOT what the Black Diamond is really about. One of the reasons to get a Black Diamond is to display convincing looking blacks in rooms with a lot of light. It can do this because of its dark color. If all you want is a bright image and don't care about blacks, the Black Diamond is not for you. Get any old high gain screen and live with the greys. The Black Diamond is for people who don't want to live with the greys.

All we have managed to prove in the last ten pages is that images can be doctored to show anything in the best or worst possible light, and that it is still difficult to get a real world perspective on what a screen can do. You certinly can't determine that by reading forum posts.

I guess there is also a sidebar that everyone has a hidden agenda in these wars. When the day is over, you still find yourself taking a giant leap of faith on a very expensive and non-returnable screen.

Sigh.

To quash your theory on doctored images go get a DEMO and see what amazing wonders awaits you.

I know this has gotten emotional, and perhaps 'doctoring' was too strong a word, but there is a natural tendency to present material in a way that best supports your case. If you are arguing on the side of good light rejection, you are going to pick the best shot. If you are arguing against, you will pick the worst. In both cases, you will likely adjust lighting to support your cause. Just human nature.

The same is true in showroom demos. I am ready to believe that the screen choice can only be properly demoed in your own room, same as speakers. However, the speakers can usually be borrowed and auditioned at home. The screen cannot due to its complex assembly and size. Best you can do is purchase the small sample swatches and try to guess how that will scale up. Not ideal, but better than nothing.

I'm not scared off by the price of the BD, but there are real compromises in size and lack of AT. That tends to lead me toward screens that cost $1k less and which my best guess says will perform better in my application. Not trying to drag this off topic or hijack this thread, but I am someone who bought too cheap, too soon and am looking at upgrades.

jayn_j
List your room/goals and explore your options - not with me with others.

It may be worth noting that at CEDIA, many manufacturers (including JVC and SIM2) displayed their products on the showroom floor on Black Diamond screens. I infer that they did this because they wanted their products to look as good as possible in showroom conditions.

Performance with sunlight in room? Here is a link to the latest video posted by S.I., for those who have not seen it yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7rey...layer_embedded

This shows some pretty brutal lighting conditions. Note the several windows just to the right of the screen. Room colors are natural- so no "camera tricks" going on here. I think most screens would be unwatchable in conditions like these, but the BD is very watchable. Perfect? Nope... but good enough to allow a projection installation where it was unworkable before.


What must be realized is that there are people who 1) want a larger picture than that from a T.V., and 2) don't have or want a dedicated room. It is for these users that the BD was created.

Kudos to Rich H. for these 2 posts- here is the voice of reason and balance:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post19760192

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post19761602

RANT/

I'm doing my best to suppress the expletives that arise when reading the part I've bolded in your post.

I get soooo sick of this charge of bias and agenda that seems lazily tossed around in forums like these.

Most people who have been on this forum for quite a while have formed their opinions from whatever research and experience they've been able to gather. And, naturally, we come to conclusions based on our investigations.
This is not "bias" or "agenda"...it's basic rationality.

For instance: I can express my findings of what I do and don't like about a screen, e.g. Black Diamond, and explain why I chose to go with a Stewart ST-130 over something like the Black Diamond. To do so is not on some hidden agenda or reality-distorting bias...it's just laying out the rational for why one screen satisfies my specific situation over another type. Again...basic human reasoning, and I don't see how you are going to be able to show it isn't rational and is instead the result of some "agenda" or "bias." (And if "bias" is to be applied to the resulting conclusion of any rational line of inquiry, then that word pretty much loses all it's meaning).

That doesn't just go for me. Most of us are trying to get what we want by comprehending the facts as we can access them. If someone loves their Black Diamond screen, and especially if they've chosen it advisedly with some knowledge of it's strengths and weakness vs other screen types, more power to them. They aren't "biased" or haven an agenda. They are simply expressing the satisfaction they have and the reasons for their choice.

That someone may be extremely enthusiastic about something they have bought, or haven't yet bought, does not in the slightest suggest they are therefore enthusiastic for unjustified reasons.

Egads...if there is one meme I would wish to kill it's the lazy accusations of bias and agenda that crop up so often around here.

/RANT

Wish it was that clear. Throughout this entire site we run across people who make a living by selling this equipment. Their posts are always somewhat over the top for whatever it is they sell/install/manufacture. Not picking on SI particularly. We see it everywhere.

It kind of came to a head here, and I have to admit that, for me, the last tenish pages of this thread have been a real demotivator and has mostly confused me.

Hey jayn_j and any/everyone else besides BD owners / reps,


The primary reason I came onto this thread was not to show off...or up the BD products. No, what I have tried to do is encourage a few posters into posting realistic Screen shots that illustrate the "real" performance envelope of the BD line-up.** Yes, I'm posting shots of similar applications, but I'm not encouraging or even suggesting that someone consider them over BD items. People who are determined to spend/buy Mfg items seldom are swayed by the prospect of another alternative.

(**.....and initally that was happening but enough people said "That looks horrible" so that kinda quashed all that... ;( )

My efforts with fraisa and crew is one rooted in showing how to NOT post Screen shots that misinform or mislead, be it by intentional or inadvertent methods. Yeah...after a good start, it's falling into a competition of sorts, but whose really to blame? Mostly, everyone who comes on and calls Foul or BS, because that sort of thing encourages fraisa and others who believe in the BD concept to gird their Loins for battle.

I know that sort of response certainly has done /does likewise to me, because when you steadfastly believe in something, hand made or Mfg, and someone trashes it (...not just take it down a peg...) you either rise to the challenge or let those people destroy all you have worked to accomplish or present.

Whether my presence has helped to keep the Screenies be more honest, or resulted in desperate measures and ineffectual postings, that is in fact for the general Membership to decide.

Certainly, if the hyped sales rhetoric was absent, fewer chagrined Members would be posting. Hey...I advised someone against that as well.

But in the end, how everyone conducts themselves when posting is what makes a Thread useful or not. Having seen too many informative and valuable Threads get locked because of purposefully abusive and/or retribution-filled posts, that is about the most lousy thing I think I've encountered. Even when it's unintentional, it's still kinda tragic.

The frequent Posters on here will make it sink or swim. Although some might say it runs counter to my own specific intentions and interests, I did want to toss a Rope to the Posters, one not designed to hang themselves with, or provide such for others to do it for them, but help reasonably show exactly what is...and is not possible.

As stated earlier, a thread that is all sales hype is nothing more than a free ad. That does get people worked up, understandably. One that shows images that are basically bad...or obviously slanted toward showing good results via camera tricks...that's not so good either.

As we continue on, and after I post some examples I hope will set a high standard, everyone should try to judge things on the merit and "good" intentions, and post accordingly....but courteously. Or not bother to post at all, because I'm fairly certain very little more of the sort of discourse we've seen just lately will be tolerated.

Including longish, OT rants. As this post might almost qualify as such...I'll personally remove it tomorrow AM. Everyone who will want to read it will have...most who need to as well.

Lastly, a great gesture for several would be to review one's post and edit/delete them or any unreasonable content. Be your own judge...for it better to do such yourself than have it done for you.

MMan

Here are several shots taken in the highest lighting possible with the Theater shown. It's really quite bright, as the light on the Furniture shows, but effective Room Colors (Mid-shade Gray Walls, Ultra Dark Gray Ceiling, Very Dark Maroon w/Gold Trim Draperies.) suppress reflective light beyond the closet perimeter of each fixture.

But there is still the directed light and overall ambient light that the Cans and Sconces provide. You'll see only higher ambient light shots for now, later I will insert the Lower/No Light shots.
















Now some TV









For those who know...and especially for those who don't, observe the colors both on/off screen. Note the lack of any blooming or suppressed light due to excessive use of Camera technique. Only "Correct" technique is needed to be able to show what the eye sees. Or close enough that no one can acll out BS or deny that the images are extremely well balanced and that most all contrast provided by the PJ has been maintained on-screen.

This is the Dedicated Theater example w/high ambient light.

Next up this PM.....the Fireplace Theater. It will have a much darker SF 4.0 screen, more comparable "Shade-wise" to a BD-II 1.4 or a BD-1 0.8 because of the far more extreme need to combat reflected ambient light.


Hey....somebody pick fraisa up off the floor, will ya?

PJ: Epson 8350 set to "Natural" mode..........NOT Dynamic or Living Room!
Screen: 125" diagonal Silver Fire 2.0
DVD: OPPO BD-83

All DVDs were BluRay Editions.

Since some posters are dealers/installers does anyone have an opinion as to how it compares to other screens designed for light conditions like the DNP Supernova, Planar Xscreen, Sony DynaClear, or earlier SI products like the Mirage and Visage screens.

This is the Dedicated Theater example w/high ambient light.

Next up this PM.....the Fireplace Theater. It will have a much darker SF 4.0 screen, more comparable "Shade-wise" to a BD-II 1.4 or a BD-1 0.8 because of the far more extreme need to combat reflected ambient light.


Hey....somebody pick fraisa up off the floor, will ya?

PJ: Epson 8350 set to "Natural" mode..........NOT Dynamic or Living Room!
Screen: 125" diagonal Silver Fire 2.0
DVD: OPPO BD-83

All DVDs were BluRay Editions.[/quote]

Hey Miss
Great shots but lil dissapointed in the choice for ambient light..,..
Also the light in the above room is away from the screen
Awesome set up and great plaining....

Look at this pic


This is a Very high light setting...

This is a similar light setting to yours....


Again your shots are good but
have not scored the pin fall to win the title...
But we should let K3000 be the Guest Referee....

K3K? That'll be like having the Prez choose the winner of the next Republican Primary. He's just a little too biased.

The only difference really in my shots are the walls and the ceiling's ability to squash ambient light reflections.

Nice....

It does look like your lights are going the other direction than the screen(ceiling pots)
enableing a dark pocket infront of the screen,
where in my room even when i have spots and not floods the spots are still
putting light onto the screen area not letting any dark pocketing to develope infront of the screen...

any way to turn those so they point down?

alright guys...

i'm looking for screenshots of more torture tested daylight conditions such as this.

Put the screen on that dark wall between the windows and I bet it's not "that" bad.

msm,

room size is 25 x 55 with 18' ceiling height.

these incandescent light screenshots don't come close to 1/2 the daylight hitting the wall between the windows.

the incoming light from the side windows would wreak havoc on most any screen.

plus, i was trying to stay within the realm of possibility.

Those most recent ambient light shots (from both fellas) show the screen materials do indeed maintain some contrast in ambient light situations, which is an achievment in of itself.

However, while some might deem the images "watchable" under such conditions (you can see what's going on rather than being washed out to oblivion) I personally wouldn't consider any of the results even close to a "satisfying" image. They look like images projected by cheap digital projectors circa 2000 or so. Hardly a level of picture quality I would aspire to. So while kind of neat, the ambient light shots are a bit of an academic exercise, IMO.

Like i posted above ,
there is a resturant in texas that has a SI blackdiamond screen on the patio..
would love to see it on during the day and a screen shot posted of it....


Also it was mentioned above that at Cedia Many Companies where using the SI screen to show there product on...

K3K,

the video is very carefully selected by SI as propaganda to highlight the strengths of the BD.

unfortunately, for them, it is also a very poor choice... a cartoon with basically 3 flat colors.

BD's strongest suit is blue and it is closest to the window. the white area is farthest from the window. and black is placed between the blue and white giving it it's best possible showing.

and even worse selection is that the cartoon is as two dimensionally as possible.

it is by far the least impressive of SI's videos.

Black Diamond 1.4 110" 200 watts of Halogens on in room look at shadows to confirm - JVC RS10 -Dark Knight



DIY painted screen Epson 8350 set to "Natural" mode 125" diagonal Silver Fire 2.0 - Avatar (i think washedout)



Black Diamond 0.8 Epson 9700UB 113" Diagional Film????


An outright VICTORY and still the CHAMP of bright room conditions the title is retained by the BLACK DIAMOND 0.8..
A runners-up trophy is awarded to the Black Diamond 1.4 for more bright conditions around screen.

The challenge is still open can a Black Diamond be defeated in Btight Room Conditions. Serious contenders only.