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Forget XP/Vista Get The A3!! - Page 2

post #31 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanD View Post

IIRC, the Toshiba players telecine to 1080i60 by default and then use the Reon or similar processor (if fitted) to return to progressive. It's a roundabout method, but I can understand that it would be the easiest way to handle 24fps, 30fps and 60i content consistently especially when you have to incorporate menus and IME as well.

Several Blu-ray players do the same thing as well.

Quote:
I'm guessing that the forced 24p facility disables all telecining post-processing, but could have interesting effects on menus and 30fps/60i material.

Many of the "1080p" players always telecine to 1080i and IVTC back to 1080p if you enable 1080p output.

Quote:
It's a real shambles, but the consequence of permitting interlaced material in what should be a progressive-only format IMO.

Let's leave interlaced content to DVD and stick with 24p for film.

That's exactly what they do, the content on the disc is 24p, period (except for things like Planet Earth, which was shot on video). The players interlace it on output.
post #32 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theron2 View Post

THX for the heads up arfster and stanger
a shame that Transformers has no lossless track guess due to the limitations of HD-DVD

Troy DC is 3.5 hours long, has top notch picture quality, a TrueHD lossless track and a ton of extras on the HD DVD. Paramount could have put a TrueHD track if they wanted to, but DD+ can be done so well that I guess they didn't see the need.

It sounds INCREDIBLE by the way.
post #33 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post

Exactly. Why would you buy an "HD DVD" player if it can't output the 1080p content that's ON the disk??

Read this: http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoff...061080iv1080p/

If you have a 1080p HDTV then it'll likely take the 1080i signal and deinterlace for you. You'll be watching 1080p.
post #34 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post

If you have a 1080p HDTV then it'll likely take the 1080i signal and deinterlace for you. You'll be watching 1080p.

And if I have a 1080p HDTV and I can feed it 1080p, then there's one less conversion/compensation in the video chain.
post #35 of 60
1080p (on disk) --> 1080i (transport) --> 1080p (display) is a non-issue for film-based material (mathematically exact and computationally simple, assuming correct implementation, of course).

That aside, the Toshiba player would have been a nobrainer if it could only work as an MCE extender.
post #36 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post

Troy DC is 3.5 hours long, has top notch picture quality, a TrueHD lossless track and a ton of extras on the HD DVD. Paramount could have put a TrueHD track if they wanted to, but DD+ can be done so well that I guess they didn't see the need.

It sounds INCREDIBLE by the way.

Agreed, the sound track on TF was the best I've heard DD. If they did it this way on all of the titles there would be no need for True HD imo. And no need to update your AVR.

This player, if any of you guys get a chance to pick one up test it for your self it's only a C note. The overall PQ is just mind boggling with this China made player. PDVD suffers from aliasing and banding issues and compatibility. The SA does not suffer from this unlike our software players, performance wise this thing plays back flawless without issues.

As for the interlaced issue, I tested movies in the PC last night and took some snaps of certain scenes. The player looks and plays better! Colors are very well balanced with no red push and the A3 has no BTB WTW issue either this was tested by another poster in the HD threads compared to the A2.

I know you guys are hard core HTPC'rs but yesterday the HTPC didn't even get fired up until I started testing last night. It not only gives my hardware a break but the player is a lot more quite than my tower with less heat build up in my room too. I just see positives with this this thing atm probably because it's my first cheapest SA I have ever owned.

As mentioned if you own a progressive LCD with a good internal de interlacing you will not see any difference. The LX seems to do a superb job of this. I'm also running the signal on this TV @ 120Hz clear frame so horizontal pans are very smooth and movie like.

The way midnight explains it it's almost better to get the none progressive player due to the fact of IVTC being introduced. Seems like the SA has to work harder just to get a progressive signal out to your progressive TV. And if your TV can de interlace a proper signal I think your better off letting the TV do it anyway.
post #37 of 60
This is Home Theater Computers forum so this thread is MEANINGLESS

As for the stand alone player crowd thinking its better???? Well I dont have to put a player in a room.

I have two HTPC in the house and I can play over 200 movies at a touch of a finger and send the video to any of 8 rooms.

You stand alone player people get up, search through your DVD collection, pick a movie, put it in and FINALLY you watch a movie IN ONLY ONE ROOM.

Now who has the better setup?!?!

Quote:


The PQ and overal performance blows away any OS's out there for ease of use PQ and play back.

blows away!?!? LOL prove it!! Subjective crap in a science site

Simply UNPROVABLE fanboy BS again. Lets pick 25 people at any time sit them down and do a blind test. Guess what they CAN NOT tell the difference. Btw, I dont care if you can tell the difference (you never did a blind test in your life though), no one cares about you. Its the general public that matters not the "silly debate" stuff of 1080i vs 1080p, HD audio and so on, that stuff is actually meaningless because its ALL GREAT.
post #38 of 60
Thread Starter 
Wow I've never been called a fanboy, penngray I've always respected your opinions, and calling names and shouting out is not like you. And I think this thread is very educational for those sitting on the fence. midnightwatcher & stanger89 posted some very useful info. People chime in asking whether to invest in PC or SA for just watching movies and the consensuses is get a SA. So I think this thread is relevant.
Edit:
Sorry, forgot stranger89 added some very useful info also thank you.
post #39 of 60
Forget FP & Vista altogether, stay with 2k!

http://www.blimptv.net/mostpopularV1.html
post #40 of 60
Here's a note I wrote to Toshiba the other day:

"Hi, my name is .....................

Will you be introducing an HD DVD player that has a high quality, continuous zoom feature?

Thanks."



Toshiba's reply:

"Dear .............,

Thanks for writing!

We appreciate your interest in Toshiba. There are currently no players with that feature or any hint that it will be a feature in the future models.
......................
Rick
Toshiba Customer Service"

(By their answer, one would think that no dvd player had ever had that feature.)

If there was presently available a good dual-format stand-alone player that had an excellent continuous zoom feature, I would not spend another second considering building a HTPC.

But if for whatever reason one does indeed decide to build an HTPC, with the LG dual-format ROM / BD writer on board, when the price of BD writable media drops, one will then likely be able to do at least one of the more important things that HTPCs have been doing for years.
post #41 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Forget FP & Vista altogether, stay with 2k!

http://www.blimptv.net/mostpopularV1.html


Ah man thanks for that link this thread needed a good laugh. CEMENT is just precious! Never saw that one coming!
post #42 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerX View Post

Not a limitation of HD-DVD. Just the choice of the studio when producing the soundtrack for the release. You should take a listen to the podcast from the AVS home page:


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post12094513


THX for the link but i didn´t hear a proof that it´s NOT due to space limitations of the HD-DVD, they say it´s the choice of the studio and that they are more flexible with DD+ (whatever that means in their eyes)
flexible in what way? my guess is BECAUSE of the space limitations of HD-DVD they have to be "flexible" and make decisions what they put on the disc and what to leave out:
the movie is very long: 144 minutes
they want to put x amount of specials on it
and x amount of audio tracks

and they have to squezze everything into 30GB...of course it´s a limitation and i really don´t think it´s a peak bandwidth issue, because many bluray discs have uncompressed PCM tracks on it and use the same video codec as Transformers so you could say video bandwidth is likely to be rougly the same but the audio bandwidth is much higher because PCM is uncompressed and TrueHD/DTS MA are compressed PCM tracks...and both formats (HD-DVD and Bluray) use the same interface (HDMI) so imo it just CAN NOT be a bandwidth issue not to use TrueHD
sorry but i REALLY can´t think of any other reason not to use True HD on the most anticipated HD release of the last couple of weeks/month except space shortage on the disc

Transformers should be THE showcase for HD, the visuals are extraordinary and the audio should be the best that is possible...and it isn´t!
don´t get me wrong, i´m not saying the DD+ track is bad no, it´s one of the best i´ve ever heard BUT it´s not the best possible quality so WTF? if it´s not the space issue what IS the reason for that decision?

btw THX for the CEMENT vid, it was hilarious
post #43 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theron2 View Post

the movie is very long: 144 minutes
they want to put x amount of specials on it
and x amount of audio tracks

and they have to squezze everything into 30GB...


I looked at the disc on my PC, and there were several gigabytes free, plenty for a lossless track. However, peak bandwidth was all used, because they had to leave space after video for English, French, and Spanish DD+ tracks, as well as a director's commentary and another I've forgotten. Essentially they chose to make space for several lame dubbed tracks on one disc, rather than lossless.

The movie was awful btw. I've seen better scriptwriting and acting from free street performances.

More generally, 144 minutes isn't a problem for HDDVD. Even with IME and lossless, you're only at 25 Gigabytes.
post #44 of 60
Quote:


Wow I've never been called a fanboy, penngray I've always respected your opinions, and calling names and shouting out is not like you.


Sorry about that, Im havent been myself and I got caught up in the whole "War" debate stuff. I even caught myself doing that crap. Sorry about that! A deep breath should have been taking before leaving that forum and coming back here.
post #45 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Yes it does. You're taking 1080p24 and telecining it into 1080i60. If the content on the disc were 1080p60, you'd have a point.

+1

As long as Hz >= 2x fps it just doesn't matter - assuming the deinterlacing is not doing something horribly wrong.
post #46 of 60
i guess it´s just the unlucky choice of words arfster "However, peak bandwidth was all used, because they had to leave space after video for English, French..." as you mentioned yourself in an earlier post peak bandwitdh has nothing to do with the space on the disc, so the real problem lies in the bandwidth of the HDMI connection that can´t handle a lossless audiotrack AND high bitrate video???
how is it possible with bluray and PCM? the only way the bluray releasers could do this would be to reduce video bitrate but i don´t recall a bluray movie with PCM that had a bad picture (low bitrate) Crank for example looks outstanding and has PCM 6.1
so i still can´t see where the problem is for the Transformers HD-DVD, maybe i´m missing something? or i´m just dense
btw yes i agree that the movie itself (storywise, dialog and acting performances) was pretty horrible, the only thing that it has going is it´s presentation and this should be the best possible and in my book that includes a lossless track
post #47 of 60
Theron,

Bandwidth = bandwidth of the HD DVD datastream. HDMI has no problems with this stuff-- it can handle full bitrate 1920x1080p + 24bit 96kHz 7.1 channel sound without trouble.
post #48 of 60
aah THX, that explains alot

so it is always a compromise on HD-DVD to go for optimal pic with lossy sound or "still good but not as good as possible" pic and lossless sound? that sucks big time
seems Bluray can handle more bandwidth? otherwise they couldn´t use PCM imo
does anybody have a link to the max possible bandwidth of both HD formats?
post #49 of 60
I won't say it's "always a compromise", since if you ask the players involved both the picture and sound on HD DVD is stellar.

It might just mean the HD DVD compression team may have to work a little harder because the Blu-ray specs leave a little more wiggle room.

I've personally not seen either disk format outdo the other in terms of picture/audio quality (yet), but it's possible the spec difference could make a difference in the future.
post #50 of 60
1080i output is no good when your 1080p display often deinterlaces poorly, as mine does.
post #51 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Sorry about that, Im havent been myself and I got caught up in the whole "War" debate stuff. I even caught myself doing that crap. Sorry about that! A deep breath should have been taking before leaving that forum and coming back here.

No... my apologies for getting to excited about SA's it's my first unit and I should have never titled the header in that manner. I know we are all passionate about our HTPC's and it will never be replaced in my book either.
END.

Why I'm leaning toward HD DVD:

If HD DVD does go all the way, we as PC'rs/Average Joe will have everything to benefit, BW compatibility and also dl'ing and storing from the net. Although I'm purple from a standing point and speaking as an end user of fair use, this seems to be the better for everybody in the end especially for us PC'rs! imo.

Sorry for the one sided red rant!

Dollars & $ense:

Microsoft and Intel cited the following consumer and industry requirements of any successful next-generation optical format for high definition, which is reflected by what HD DVD delivers today:
Managed Copy: A first for DVDs. Managed Copy is a guaranteed feature within HD DVD that gives consumers the freedom to make copies of their discs to a hard drive or home server, including Media Center PCs using Intel Viiv technology, and enjoy them in every room of the house over their home networks. HD DVD discs also will allow copies of the movie to be played on portable devices.
Future-proof compatibility. Using proven HD DVD hybrid disc technology, a single disc can store both high-definition and standard-definition versions of a film, allowing consumers to immediately enjoy the standard-definition movies stored on these discs on today's DVD players, while HD movies can be replayed later on the HD DVD platform. This is an opportunity for consumers to buy discs at launch that future proof their collections in other words, helping assure customers that the discs they buy will remain viewable in the future.
Proven low-cost, high-volume manufacturing. HD DVD discs use essentially the same manufacturing equipment as existing DVDs, meaning that production of HD DVD can ramp up easily and with lower costs.
Superior capacity. HD DVD-ROM discs will offer dual-layer 30GB discs at launch, compared with BD-ROM discs, which will be limited to 25GB.
Superior interactivity. HD DVD discs will offer greater interactivity using iHD technology, allowing for enhanced content, navigation and value-added functionality for high-definition films. For example, HD DVDs can offer advanced picture-in-picture capability so that other video, such as a director's commentary, could play on top of the movie.
Superior format for notebook PCs. The compatibility of HD DVD with standard DVD facilitates and simplifies development of slim disc drives for integration in notebook PCs, one of the fastest-growing segments of the PC market.
As longtime leaders in the development of new industry specifications, Intel and Microsoft believe a single optical disc format is an ideal solution that would drive rapid consumer adoption. Although the companies have determined that HD DVD is the only viable solution at this time, each remains committed to working toward one format that meets consumer and industry requirements.
About the HD DVD Promotion Group
The HD DVD Promotion Group aims to exchange views and thoughts to help promote the HD DVD format based contents and products into the marketplace and share its promotional activity among members to encourage the broad acceptance of HD DVD on a world wide basis among members of the group, related industries and the public.
About Intel
Intel, the world's largest chip maker, is also a leading manufacturer of computer, networking and communications products. Additional information about Intel is available at http://www.intel.com/pressroom.
About Microsoft
Founded in 1975, Microsoft (Nasdaq MSFT) is the worldwide leader in software, services and solutions that help people and businesses realize their full potential.
Microsoft is a registered trademark of Microsoft Corp. in the United States and/or other countries.
The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.
Note to editors: If you are interested in viewing additional information on Microsoft, please visit the Microsoft® Web page at http://www.microsoft.com/presspass on Microsoft's corporate information pages. Web links, telephone numbers and titles were correct at time of publication, but may since have changed. For additional assistance, journalists and analysts may contact Microsoft's Rapid Response Team or other appropriate contacts listed at http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/contactpr.mspx.
post #52 of 60
Don't get me wrong, I agree with some (not all) of this. But let's try not to bring the format war into this "room". I'm sick of it on the HDTV Software Forum side (the mods are too, apparently, given that they just shut the place down because of it), and if it starts being pervasive here too I, for one, am out of here.
post #53 of 60
The real point is that at this time the software players available to play high definition content are not mature. Nor do the allow any high def-audio... I have 2 HTPCs and I considered them experiments or maybe more correctly works in progress. They are filled with promise but for the most part they just don't match up to stand alone players, or integrated tuners, or tuners in STBs. Sure it may be convenient for some folks to play their software from a server, but it takes some work to get them on the server and you still have the compromised playback.

I watch the video card topics, and the PowerDVDUltra topics daily and I update when there is a significant advantage to do so. But right now in my opinion the display drivers and the players are betaware at best and they really are blown away by the quality on stand alones. Beyond all that you never even know when you buy a new title and bring it home if PowerDVD will actually play it.
post #54 of 60
I agree, gtgray. HTPC is still experimental. If I had a dedicated theater, I'd go with a stand alone player that decodes HD audio and a receiver that can play it. But even that is not 100% assured.
post #55 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

This is Home Theater Computers forum so this thread is MEANINGLESS

As for the stand alone player crowd thinking its better???? Well I dont have to put a player in a room.

I have two HTPC in the house and I can play over 200 movies at a touch of a finger and send the video to any of 8 rooms.

You stand alone player people get up, search through your DVD collection, pick a movie, put it in and FINALLY you watch a movie IN ONLY ONE ROOM.

Now who has the better setup?!?!



blows away!?!? LOL prove it!! Subjective crap in a science site

Simply UNPROVABLE fanboy BS again. Lets pick 25 people at any time sit them down and do a blind test. Guess what they CAN NOT tell the difference. Btw, I dont care if you can tell the difference (you never did a blind test in your life though), no one cares about you. Its the general public that matters not the "silly debate" stuff of 1080i vs 1080p, HD audio and so on, that stuff is actually meaningless because its ALL GREAT.

Remind us again how much your setup cost...
post #56 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post

And if I have a 1080p HDTV and I can feed it 1080p, then there's one less conversion/compensation in the video chain.

What if the HDTV deinterlaces better than the player?
post #57 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post

What if the HDTV deinterlaces better than the player?

Better interlacing in the TV than a custom built..I put my heart and soul in it...I pleaded to the Nvidia gods to make it work...worshipped Microsoft so that it wouldn't miss a recording....HTPC???

That's blasphemy in this forum...
post #58 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibael View Post

Don't get me wrong, I agree with some (not all) of this. But let's try not to bring the format war into this "room". I'm sick of it on the HDTV Software Forum side (the mods are too, apparently, given that they just shut the place down because of it), and if it starts being pervasive here too I, for one, am out of here.


I believe we here at the HTPC forums are mature enough to handle these topics you are proof of that with the conversation about disk space. But I agree this thread I started is pure blasphemy, but in essence a good thing too. I'm still enjoying the SA experience, compared to playback in the PC because it just won't play certain titles without having to resort to ripping tools. The hardware specs of course for SA is complete so at least you can enjoy the benefit of getting the full spectrum of the sound tracks.

PDVD's latest update has caused Elemtent 5 to give back refunds due to the lack of HDD playback that was silently slipped in with the latest patch that denied playback off the HDD. It doesn't look good for the PC enthusiast to get into HD DVD playback for the PC at this point and time due to so so many restrictions and poor software support.
post #59 of 60
Quote:


Remind us again how much your setup cost...


Does cost matter?? If you want to compare notes, I have no problem. I have more then a million in DEBTS

I dont know your point but I do know that you can not see the difference between 1080i vs 1080p on a good TV.
post #60 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Does cost matter?? If you want to compare notes, I have no problem. I have more then a million in DEBTS

I dont know your point but I do know that you can not see the difference between 1080i vs 1080p on a good TV.

Umm, my point is - of course cost matters. You've got this unbelievably expensive system up and running, congratulations btw. The OP's point was that if you want to watch HD-DVD, just buy a standalone player.

Are you always so quick to whip out your e-wang? I have more than that in debt too... so what?
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