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Auto Lip Sync

post #1 of 10
Thread Starter 
I searched, I swear I did....

Does anyone know if there currently are, or will ever be, any HDM players that will feature Auto Lip Sync?

I purchased the Denon 3808 and it says it includes this feature, but the player also needs to support it correct?

Thanks in advance.
post #2 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by khwiggins2 View Post

I searched, I swear I did....

Does anyone know if there currently are, or will ever be, any HDM players that will feature Auto Lip Sync?

I purchased the Denon 3808 and it says it includes this feature, but the player also needs to support it correct?

Thanks in advance.

Don't think the player matters. It's really the TV and the AVR that matters.
post #3 of 10
Unfortunately it is not possible to correct lip-sync error automatically because there is no watermark in the video and audio signals to define when they were EVER in sync!

The "automatic lip-sync correction" feature of HDMI 1.3 is definitely a misnomer if there ever was one.

All it means is that with 1.3 a display can tell a receiver (through EDID handshaking) the fixed video delay it will cause.

Of course that won't solve the problem any better than manually setting the delay on a non-HDMI 1.3 receiver.

In fact it is often "worse" since some programs have lagging audio and in those cases your display's video delay can help offset it. For example I use a DD540 and normally vary between 100 and 125 ms delay with about half of that due to my plasma and the other half in the arriving signal but occasionally I find perfect sync at 25 ms which means I am using about 40 ms of my plasma's delay to offset a signal that arrived with 40 ms lagging audio.

That's happened so much this year that I wonder if TV stations are deliberately transmitting audio delayed since so many consumers now have flat screens that delay the video.

Of course lip-sync error starts at image capture and continues through post and both broadcasting and DVD encoding so there are many opportunities for small lip-sync errors to creep in and of course they are cumulative and vary all over the place.

The only manufacturers that seem to understand lip-sync changes from program to program and DVD to DVD and must be adjusted subjectively at the start of each new program are the three manufacturers of dedicated lip-sync correction delay bioxes featured in the following review:


Their most important feature is that they allow fine tuning the delay while watching whothout image disruption. That's the most important feature and something I have never seen an av recei9ver's lip-sync feature do. They all seem to think it is a set-once-and-forget parameter due entirely to the display's fixed dely and it definitely is not.

The meuns they overlay the screen with makes it totally impossible to tweak the delay for perfect lip-sync since it can take awhile at the start of each new program or DVD as tyou wait for appropriate talking heads to be able to make the adjustment.

Without that ability - to adjust while watching - you will never achieeve perfect sync but another problem most receivers have is insufficient delay. SOme have as litle as 80 ms whioch is seldom enough - even for SD - whereas all three products in the review have 600 ms or more. (Still 300 ms at 96 KHz sampling).
post #4 of 10
Sorry, I hit a CR when spell checking and it submitted my post before I inserted the review:


http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=3011

Also, I apologize for the last half still misspelled.
post #5 of 10
It's also a misnomer because the entire audio track is what's out of sync, not just the dialogue. It's not as if the voices don't match but the music and sound effects are spot-on.
post #6 of 10
TNT-HD suffers very bad from this. Try watching an entire episode of Law and Order on there.
post #7 of 10
I was wondering about the whole lip sync hdmi 1.3 thing as well. I see the lip sync option in my onkyo 705 menu, but not anywhere in my sony 52XBR 4 menus. Are all hdmi 1.3 displays capable of the lip sync feature described in the 1.3 spec. Is my XBR4 atuomatically syncing with my 705 if i turn the option on in the 705 menu or do you need to activate this in the TV as well. IMO the lip synch feature in my 705 makes things worse when turned on. When i first got my new reciever a couple months ago i was anal about syncing up whatever i was watching. Now i just leave it at what i have found to be an acceptable setting. Cable seems to be a much worse offender then my Blu ray or HD DVD player. To tell you the truth i have not noticed any lip sync issues with my HDM players.
post #8 of 10
Thread Starter 
Is this more of an issue for longer cable runs? Especially for long HDMI runs between receiver and display? I'm currently using a 2m cable and since switching to bitstream capable players, haven't noticed any lipsync issues. I am however, considering a future purchase of a projector since my 72" RPTV is starting to get too small.
post #9 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by khwiggins2 View Post

Is this more of an issue for longer cable runs?

No.
post #10 of 10
There are a number of different ways to deal with audio/video sync problems, but this thread refers to the Automatic Lipsync feature introduced in the HDMI 1.3 spec. In actual fact, this did fix one problem I had. I bought a new Philips TV with a bunch of great video processing features like 240Hz, noise reduction, artifact reduction, dynamic contrast, active control, all things that I paid extra for but couldn't use. In case it isn't clear, that's because when you introduce video processing you slow down the video image causing the picture to lag behind the audio. Human beings are pretty forgiving when what we see happens BEFORE what we hear because light travels faster than sound. Lightening before thunder for example. But when the sound comes first it throws us. So when I finally got a new receiver for Christmas, I was able to start using these features. Now, AUTOMATIC lip-sync (really audio sync - not just dialog) works because the HDTV can tell the receiver exactly how much delay is being introduced. So if the audio and video start off in sync, then this process can put them back into sync. And I needed that. However, far too often by the time we get a movie or TV show it is already out of sync. Automatic synchronization will not (CAN NOT) fix that problem. Unfortunately, it's happening more and more often. lots of videos are captured by people who mean well but don't know what they're doing, or don't take the time to do it right. Worse, digital cable and satellite providers have little quality control for sync issues. And as more channels are introduced and more compression is incorporated into the process, these problems just get worse. Why the show would be out of sync and the commercials NOT, that I can't explain. But I know that half of what I watch on Shaw Direct is at least 100msec out of sync and often way more. The only way to fix that problem is by eyeballing it. You need to get a receiver that will let you see enough of the picture that you can watch the lips move while you slip the audio. And it has to adjust the audio in real time so that you can be assured that the delay you're introducing will STAY that duration after you exit that screen. I have a decent Yamaha receiver and a pretty high-end Sony and both support both automatic lipsync and manual sync. Unfortunately, at least for the present, you're likely to need to adjust at the beginning of just about every show and every movie, until content providers get this problem sorted out. Meanwhile there is just no automatic way of fixing audio/video sync. At least in the old days there was a clapperboard at the beginning of every take of every film. Digital filmmakers have become very lazy in this regard because unlike the old days when audio and video where recorded on different devices, they are both recorded together now. But there are still plenty of ways to screw it up. Sorry this explanation was so long, but I'm an audio engineer and I've been explaining this exact thing to people for years. And so far whenever I try to shorten the explanation I just confuse people. Anyway, to summarize, I've found that once I got my HDTV set up the way I like it, I've left it alone. So I figured out the delay for processing, and that number seldom changes. So automatic lip-sync, even if it works correctly, is mostly useless for most people. You need instead to get a receiver like I described above, with at least half a second of delay, and hopefully more. Then you need to get used to spending a little time re-jigging the sync pretty regularly. Still, it's better than having to put up with out-of-sync TV. smile.gif
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