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RCA DTA800 Digital to Analog TV Converter Box - Page 2

post #31 of 380
2/25/08 at 1:34pm
Woen: thanks for the report. Sounds like the RCA DTA800B is frustrating in terms of not allowing manual input of a channel, the Insignia/Zenith has somewhat more functional options. How user-friendly is the Insignia/Zenith remote?
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post #32 of 380
2/25/08 at 2:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by w0en View Post

Direct RF channel broadcast entry results in the unit moving to the closest match of the entered numbers.

Are you trying to manually enter in the physical or virtual channel numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by w0en View Post

Both the composite and the RF channels outputs look good, almost DVD quality, certainly better than an NTSC analog signal, although without an S-Video option some "crawl" can sometimes be noticed on dots, herringbone patterns and colored stripes in closeups, not an uncommon problem with composite video.

I sometimes get the same issue with my Samsung DTB-H260F, hooked to an analog Sony TV via component video.
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post #33 of 380
2/25/08 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by seatacboy View Post

Woen: thanks for the report. Sounds like the RCA DTA800B is frustrating in terms of not allowing manual input of a channel, the Insignia/Zenith has somewhat more functional options. How user-friendly is the Insignia/Zenith remote?

I have not tested the RCA unit, but I do have the Zenith DTT900 converter. It's simple, easy to work with and works very well. Here's a link that will provide inside photos, outside photos, user guide, and more. I think you find that the Zenith/Insignia easy to use.

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/...QKE00710\\\\\\'

You won't find S-Video or RF pass through on the Zenith box, BUT if all you want is a basic converter that works very well, the Zenith does the trick.

Sincerely,

Bob Diaz
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post #34 of 380
2/25/08 at 5:19pm
those photos at least are very out dated.
neither Zenith nor Insignia units based on
LG chips have the SmartAntenna anymore.
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post #35 of 380
2/25/08 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packeteers View Post

those photos at least are very out dated.
neither Zenith nor Insignia units based on LG chips have the SmartAntenna anymore.

That's because those photos are Beta test versions; prototypes used in the preliminary Federal certification process.

Avio
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post #36 of 380
2/25/08 at 10:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by seatacboy View Post

Woen: thanks for the report. Sounds like the RCA DTA800B is frustrating in terms of not allowing manual input of a channel, the Insignia/Zenith has somewhat more functional options. How user-friendly is the Insignia/Zenith remote?

The remote on the Insignia has quite a few buttons. It has a signal button to quickly check signal, a recall for the last channel, favorite button and a zoom for changing aspect ratio 4 ways. The unit has 45 TV control codes built in to turn your TV off/on.

Volume control controls sound output to TV same as on the LG based Directv boxes I have been using up until now, so you set the TV volume to a higher level and control it that way. It has a mute button that shuts off the sound but no option to then go to CC automatically like some newer TV's do - on the RCA the remote contols the TV's volume directly.
The remote is slightly shorter and not as wide as the RCA box remote.
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post #37 of 380
2/25/08 at 11:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whidbey View Post

Are you trying to manually enter in the physical or virtual channel numbers?



I sometimes get the same issue with my Samsung DTB-H260F, hooked to an analog Sony TV via component video.

I'm entering the actual RF channel numbers, ie; if I put in 46 which is virtual 47 it goes to virtual channel 4 which is in it's previously memorized scanlist . On one of my TV's (Samsung) that same action will find an unscanned RF channel and add it in, changing it to the virtual number obtained from the PSIP.

That's a problem caused by combining two signals on composite that S-Video generally solves by separating them. Can't say I have seen it on component input, myself. I also have a Samsung SIR-451 hooked in with component leads to a Sony RP unit on another set but haven't noticed that effect. YMMV
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post #38 of 380
2/26/08 at 2:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by w0en View Post

Picked up an 800B model

Does this box have digital closed captioning features? Or does it only pass through analog closed caption features to your TV, which may be automatic? Have you tested whether that works by turning on your TV's closed caption features?

(The box sounds like it is difficult to work with, however, so it may not be ideal anyway.)

Dana
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post #39 of 380
2/26/08 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmulvany View Post

Does this box have digital closed captioning features? Or does it only pass through analog closed caption features to your TV, which may be automatic? Have you tested whether that works by turning on your TV's closed caption features?

(The box sounds like it is difficult to work with, however, so it may not be ideal anyway.)

Dana

It does have digital CC, but I have problems on digital CC of a particular channel. I suspect all boxes have the same problems, because I have tested 3 RCA boxes. It also pass through analog closed caption features to your TV.
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post #40 of 380
2/26/08 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksburg98 View Post

It also pass through analog closed caption features to your TV.

All boxes should do this. Since the analog CC is stored in the picture, the information will be passd through unless the box intentionally filters it out.
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post #41 of 380
2/26/08 at 8:30pm
My experiences with the DTA800B:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...1&postcount=71

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...9&postcount=82

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...2&postcount=83

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...3&postcount=84

Hope this is of assistance.
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post #42 of 380
2/26/08 at 8:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksburg98 View Post

It does have digital CC, but I have problems on digital CC of a particular channel. I suspect all boxes have the same problems, because I have tested 3 RCA boxes. It also pass through analog closed caption features to your TV.

The problem with digital CC is probably due to the station on that channel not transmitting digital captions, which is NOT the fault of the converter boxes (particularly if digital captions are showing up from other channels). Unfortunately, a lot of TV stations are still not broadcasting both digital and analog captions on digital channels as required by law. The FCC has not been enforcing this, however, until people complain in writing to the station, still don't get a satisfactory resolution within 45 days, and then complain to the FCC. Most people don't know that and don't see a complaint all the way through to the FCC, so the FCC's official position is that there are few problems with digital captions and thus there isn't a need for them to take action.

Bottom line---write a complaint by snail mail or fax to the station that isn't transmitting digital captions and tell them they need to broadcast both digital and analog captions on all digital channels. If they don't resolve the problem within 45 days, complain to the FCC.

Please mention the network of the affiliate that isn't transmitting the digital captions.
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post #43 of 380
2/26/08 at 9:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by w0en View Post

Picked up an 800B model (there has been reported an A model that uses an older chipset) at a Walmart on Saturday. I had picked up an Insignia box at BB on Monday so I have the two to compare. I haven't had much time to play with it this weekend, hope to have more time during the week. Initial reactions are that this box has a very, very basic feature set compared to the Insignia box. Not to say it doesn't work very well at the most basic level for it's intended audience as I have been using it tonight. Looks like it has only two global aspect ratio settings available only from the menu and no way to switch on the fly with the remote without going to the menus. Remote has large buttons. Channel information display box is very large. I don't have a smart antenna so I have no way to check that feature out. I remember seeing a deep scan option for the smart antenna that I can't find any more. I have not found a way to add non automatically scanned channels and it appears to refuse to take a direct UHF channel input that isn't already in the scanned list. I just checked again and it refuses any kind of a direct RF channel entry that I can tell, scanned in previously or not. When the scanned in channel is too weak it drops down to the next channel it can pick up. It appears to "hang up" when it misses a channel (can't decode it and complains about signal strength) in the list and won't take a new direct entry until you push the channel up/down to a channel it can decode/receive. I'm hoping to get time to make an A/B/C comparison against the Insignia/Zenith box and the older generation HD Directv boxes I have been using up until now. Both coupon boxes appear to do a better job with multipath. My LG based tuners (Sony HD200, Zenith 520, LSS-3200A and my Hisense USDTV box) can't get my main locals at the same time I pick up my out of DMA stations when I am pointed at them. Both coupon boxes reliably pick up all the locals on the back side of the antenna when pointed at the out of DMA stations. None of the older chipset based boxes will pick up more than a couple of the stations this way. The box suffers from the common engineering/programming design assumption malady that antenna rotors don't exist and all consumers get all their viewable channels from the same static direction at the same time and that all channels are on the air 24/7. I have a couple that go off the air at midnight from smaller markets, so don't run a channel scan after that time. I have found no way to get it to keep all channels found, each scan erases previous channels and starts fresh. Direct RF channel broadcast entry results in the unit moving to the closest match of the entered numbers. I lost 4 southern DMA channels on a scan trying to pick up a NW channel. My main channels are at 2 degrees. Both the composite and the RF channels outputs look good, almost DVD quality, certainly better than an NTSC analog signal, although without an S-Video option some "crawl" can sometimes be noticed on dots, herringbone patterns and colored stripes in closeups, not an uncommon problem with composite video. My test set is a very low mileage late 90's 27" RCA with the built in Gemstar Guide plus+ used by Thomson on most of their RCA/GE's of that era. It has both Composite and RF inputs for quick comparison and I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. RF and Composite signals are output simultaneously for viewing/recording at the same time. I have some older VCR's that I would like to test out with some recording next, when I get some time. The unit has no RF pass through when off.


This matches my experience. The most annoying problem is the inability to manually add RF channels, and to update and retain new captures. No RF passthrough is also annoying, but to be expected.

That said, the absolute performance of the unit is outstanding. It is easily superior to my Samsung SIR-T451, and the Samsung 260 I tested. And setup is a snap. If all that is desired is to recive local SDTV, this unit more than meets the requirements. I plan to keep it as a DTV DX'ing scanner box.
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post #44 of 380
2/27/08 at 9:27am
PinkSplice: At the risk of sounding a bit naieve, do I understand correctly that the DTA 800 does not allow a "new" RF channel scan beyond the initial setup? How would the DTA 800 work if you brought it to someone else's house (different location) - would it allow a new RF channel scan at the different location - presumably erasing the "old" channel scan?
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post #45 of 380
2/27/08 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PinkSplice View Post

The most annoying problem is the inability to manually add RF channels, and to update and retain new captures.

I'm wondering if you guys are making a big deal out of nothing.
Isn't this box supposed to be the SmartAntenna version, so if
you HAD a SmartAntenna, manually adding channels would be
pointless? I guess what I'm getting at is if I mated this B-Box
with a SmartAntenna, why would I still need manual abilities?
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post #46 of 380
2/27/08 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packeteers View Post

I'm wondering if you guys are making a big deal out of nothing.
Isn't this box supposed to be the SmartAntenna version, so if
you HAD a SmartAntenna, manually adding channels would be
pointless? I guess what I'm getting at is if I mated this B-Box
with a SmartAntenna, why would I still need manual abilities?

We're out of DMA viewers/TV DXers. I can pick up my locals at 41 miles with a 2-Bay outside and they are all from one direction. Believe it or not I don't watch much TV for the content, mainly out of market news. I've got cable for other stuff, this is just a hobby for me. Don't expect an electronically steered crossed dipole antenna to pick up anything close to what an XG91/CM4228 and CM7777 will do, it's not in the physics. We need big ugly antennas with a low WAF to do this. The smartantenna design is for metro/suburban viewers like the round plastic saucer and wing antennas are, low profile and inconspicuous to those that didn't grow up with a TV antenna on every house in the neighborhood, the bigger, the better. As they have been so hard to get a hold of there isn't a lot of performance data in the real world on the forums out there, regarding range and ability. I would expect them to work good beyond the range where inside antenna are no longer an option. I'm planning on getting one when they are more available to play with myself, that's why I wanted the RCA box.
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post #47 of 380
2/27/08 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmulvany View Post

The problem with digital CC is probably due to the station on that channel not transmitting digital captions, which is NOT the fault of the converter boxes (particularly if digital captions are showing up from other channels). Unfortunately, a lot of TV stations are still not broadcasting both digital and analog captions on digital channels as required by law. The FCC has not been enforcing this, however, until people complain in writing to the station, still don't get a satisfactory resolution within 45 days, and then complain to the FCC. Most people don't know that and don't see a complaint all the way through to the FCC, so the FCC's official position is that there are few problems with digital captions and thus there isn't a need for them to take action.

Bottom line---write a complaint by snail mail or fax to the station that isn't transmitting digital captions and tell them they need to broadcast both digital and analog captions on all digital channels. If they don't resolve the problem within 45 days, complain to the FCC.

Please mention the network of the affiliate that isn't transmitting the digital captions.

I believe the digital CC problem is due to the performance of the Broadcom processor. I change the background of the caption to solid black instead of semi-transparency. It worked most of time on that particular channel now. The channel ,6.1 ,is actually PBS and it works when I just open the box. I suspect the processor is not able to catch up with the workload of a semi-transparency background.
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post #48 of 380
2/27/08 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by w0en View Post

I'm planning on getting one when they are more available to play with myself, that's why I wanted the RCA box.

why bother? you're 50 miles from anywhere.
so why waste $80 on a flying saucer that
was never designed for your situation

you only avoided my question; why would anyone
need to manually program in stations, if they were
depending on SmartAntenna for all their fine tuning?
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post #49 of 380
2/27/08 at 10:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packeteers View Post

why bother? you're 50 miles from anywhere.
so why waste $80 on a flying saucer that
was never designed for your situation

you only avoided my question; why would anyone
need to manually program in stations, if they were
depending on SmartAntenna for all their fine tuning?

In case you were serious

Quote:
Originally Posted by Packeteers View Post

Isn't this box supposed to be the SmartAntenna version, so if
you HAD a SmartAntenna, manually adding channels would be
pointless? I guess what I'm getting at is if I mated this B-Box
with a SmartAntenna, why would I still need manual abilities?

You answered your own question.
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post #50 of 380
2/27/08 at 11:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packeteers View Post

I'm wondering if you guys are making a big deal out of nothing.
Isn't this box supposed to be the SmartAntenna version, so if
you HAD a SmartAntenna, manually adding channels would be
pointless? I guess what I'm getting at is if I mated this B-Box
with a SmartAntenna, why would I still need manual abilities?

I've had the Sylvania 6900DTE and DTA-5000 for quite a while now.
It takes about 20 min for a full Smart Antenna scan (16 compass headings).

Since multipath can vary from hour to hour and day to day, I would like to
see a "refresh Smart Antenna settings" for just the current channel....

BTW: For VHF band, it uses two crossed dipoles...with loading coils to adjust VSWR/resonance.
For UHF band, it uses two-element Yagi antennas directed at each of four compass headings...
with loading coils/traps to adjust VSWR/resonance...plus low gain Preamps.

In side-by-side tests, it performed about the same as a 4-Bay antenna w. Preamp.
[Any antenna trying to cover 2:1 UHF band is going to have terrible VSWR].

So it's better than it's small size would imply....although no contest vs CM-4228.

=====================================
I'm looking forward to looking inside the RCA & GE Smart Antennas....
And will pass on the Broadcom/Pause-TV Quad-Loop plus VHF Rabbit Ears....
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post #51 of 380
2/28/08 at 7:59am
holl, I was going to PM this, but I figured since many urban/suburban consumers considering the DTA800B may spring for a DTA5000, that maybe I should ask this question here so others searching for answers may benefit.

after owning your SmartAntenna for a while now, do you notice Birds gravitating toward it's large flat surface any more then they do a typical stick antenna? we have a lot of common sparrows and pigeons here, even during the winter, and I'd like to keep them off my Antenna.

I would use Plastic spikes - no metal, to make sure they don't interfere with antenna reception. I could affix them to the top of the antennas plastic chassis with silicon, and perhaps out on to the antennas 4 poles as well. Do you have any thoughts on this matter?

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post #52 of 380
2/28/08 at 9:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

I've had the Sylvania 6900DTE and DTA-5000 for quite a while now.
It takes about 20 min for a full Smart Antenna scan (16 compass headings).

Since multipath can vary from hour to hour and day to day, I would like to
see a "refresh Smart Antenna settings" for just the current channel....

BTW: For VHF band, it uses two crossed dipoles...with loading coils to adjust VSWR/resonance.
For UHF band, it uses two-element Yagi antennas directed at each of four compass headings...
with loading coils/traps to adjust VSWR/resonance...plus low gain Preamps.

In side-by-side tests, it performed about the same as a 4-Bay antenna w. Preamp.
[Any antenna trying to cover 2:1 UHF band is going to have terrible VSWR].

So it's better than it's small size would imply....although no contest vs CM-4228.

=====================================
I'm looking forward to looking inside the RCA & GE Smart Antennas....
And will pass on the Broadcom/Pause-TV Quad-Loop plus VHF Rabbit Ears....

From your description, RCA DTA800B does not have a real time feedback system to steer the antenna. I may have to reconsider the other set top box if that is the case. I go to Broadcom's website, but I can not find information about how its chip steers the antenna.
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post #53 of 380
2/28/08 at 9:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packeteers View Post

why bother? you're 50 miles from anywhere.
so why waste $80 on a flying saucer that
was never designed for your situation

you only avoided my question; why would anyone
need to manually program in stations, if they were
depending on SmartAntenna for all their fine tuning?

Same reasons I already own two coupon boxes and haven't received any coupons yet, curiosity and experimentation. Reading the post above from someone that has actually played with a Smartantenna and compares it to an amped 4-Bay only makes me more curious. On my main TV's for viewing (the ones the wife watches) I get great signals on all the network stations with an unamplified 4-Bay, split once at less than 20 feet. For the next year, we are in a unique situation with both Megawatt analog and digital stations on the air, lots of high power adjacent and co-channel interferance potential. What happens next February, nobody is 100% certain. I want to have a baseline experience for comparison purposes. My expectations are things will get even better for DTV reception, especially on the weaker stations presently on the next channel over from a high powered analog.

The FCC coverage patterns don't assume 100% 24/7 coverage for many stations for all areas. Some viewers live in less than ideal pickup areas because of topography or vegetation. I have relatives with a lake cabin in this catagory that I will have to work on this summer. Some viewers will only get sporatic coverage for certain stations under good atmospheric conditions. The ability to add stations manually to their scan without losing existing channels may be important to them. While I can easily get all the major stations at my location, there are some LP stations with alternative programming that will flash cut to digital at low power next Feb. Having them in the scan would be a plus for me. As mentioned in a post above and also in the RCA 800B documentation a "deep scan" can take 20-50 minutes.

All things considered, my intent is not to discredit this box, it works great for me here as designed with a regular antenna to watch the stations most people in this area watch 100% of the time. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone that can get all their desired channels in one scan and wouldn't need the capability to ever add channels manually.
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post #54 of 380
2/28/08 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packeteers View Post

holl, I was going to PM this, but I figured since many urban/suburban consumers considering the DTA800B may spring for a DTA5000, that maybe I should ask this question here so others searching for answers may benefit.

after owning your SmartAntenna for a while now, do you notice Birds gravitating toward it's large flat surface any more then they do a typical stick antenna? we have a lot of common sparrows and pigeons here, even during the winter, and I'd like to keep them off my Antenna.

I would use Plastic spikes - no metal, to make sure they don't interfere with antenna reception. I could affix them to the top of the antennas plastic chassis with silicon, and perhaps out on to the antennas 4 poles as well. Do you have any thoughts on this matter?


I never left the DTA-5000 outside, so I don't know whether our
big crows could get a grip on one of the dipoles---it would take
a rather large claw. Plastic pieces look like a good plan...

blacksburg98:
The old Sylvania 6900DTE scans and doesn't update settings.

Until someone tests the new boxes, we can only hope for better algorithms.
I have not seen such a test for the RCA DTA-800A or B.

FYI: I posted links to Smart Antenna test report et. al. in
CECB SD-STB COMPARISON THREAD:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post13015675
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post #55 of 380
2/28/08 at 6:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by seatacboy View Post

PinkSplice: At the risk of sounding a bit naieve, do I understand correctly that the DTA 800 does not allow a "new" RF channel scan beyond the initial setup? How would the DTA 800 work if you brought it to someone else's house (different location) - would it allow a new RF channel scan at the different location - presumably erasing the "old" channel scan?

You can *always* do a rescan. The previous channels will be wiped out. What we are bitching about is the inability to manually enter channels.
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post #56 of 380
2/28/08 at 11:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

blacksburg98:
The old Sylvania 6900DTE scans and doesn't update settings.

Until someone tests the new boxes, we can only hope for better algorithms.
I have not seen such a test for the RCA DTA-800A or B.

MaxMedia MMDTVB03 may has some good features on smart antenna. Its power consumption is 8.5W when smart antenna is used. 6W if smart antenna is not used. The only explanation is that TI TVP9007 is processing the signals and giving feedback to the smart antenna. Broadcom's chip seems to be a dumb "smart antenna" interface.

from maxmedia's website,
We are glad that Maxmedia chose TI's TVP9007 HDTV processor for their converter box design and are happy to see it achieve NTIA certificaton," said Li Zhang, business development manager for Texas Instruments. "We have enjoyed working with MaxMedia to help enable solutions for this important broadcasting change."

Among the features that Maxmedia touts are a robust OSD, S-Video, Composite output as well as a smart antenna solution that promises better picture quality and channel reception stability by using an advanced technology to lock onto OTA (Off the Air) signals.

We will be sure until someone has tested maxmedia box.
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post #57 of 380
2/29/08 at 10:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksburg98 View Post

The only explanation is that TI TVP9007 is processing the signals and giving feedback to the smart antenna.

but you don't know that for a fact. it could just be wasting energy.

obviously if that box was regularly rescanning the UHF for optimal tuning,
that would be awesome, so there would be no need to do a painful 20 minute rescan,
or hope for some manual scan by channel feature.
but all this may be wishful thinking, at this point

for what it's worth, I asked Maxmedia the question;
http://maxmedia-usa.com/index.php?op...id=11&id=15#15
hopefully someone there with half a brain responds.
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post #58 of 380
3/2/08 at 7:43am
While waiting to receive my $40 coupons, I decided to buy an RCA DTA800 at Wal*Mart to see if OTA DTV is even a viable option at my condo. Purchased on Friday, this unit is labeled as a DTA800, not as a DTA800A or DTA800B.

For the past few years, I've used Limited Cable Service due to poor analog OTA reception at my condo unit: the bottom floor unit in a complex of three-story buildings.

The DTA800 is connected to a four-year-old KLH Digital 20" standard-def TV and a six-year-old Recoton amplified indoor antenna. I've eceive some, but not all, local Seattle DMA DTV channels.

This is a very difficult reception spot, similar to being in a basement on a hillside facing away from the major TV transmitters. I may try different antennas in the north-facing window of my condo unit.

While the RCA's control functionality definitely seems "dumbed down", the set has delivered more channels than I expected. The remote control itself is very user-friendly. In my condo unit, the very highest signal strength I've been able to capture was 60-62% on KCPQ 13.1. Most of the channels received (KWPX, KBTC, KUNS) have been coming in at about 25-30% signal strength; KIRO 7.1 and KMYQ 22.1 is coming in at about 15-20% and remains viewable most of the time, but with occasional pixellation, blocking and breakup. Needless to say, I'm hoping for improvement from a better antenna.

My initial impressions of the RCA DTA800 are mildly positive. SD PQ has been very good on some channels. On occasion the audio has frozen up after having several channel changes or getting "hung" on a station with too much signal interference or reception problems. The big-button remote is a treat and was easy to set up as a universal to control my off-brand KLH TV.

While I will soon test a Zenith/Insignia box as well as a different antenna, in all likelihood I'll need to retain cable for the foreseeable future to receive my major network channels. A CECB remains useful to receive some of the subchannels (such as mHz Worldview) which simply aren't being retransmitted by my cable TV system.
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post #59 of 380
3/2/08 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by seatacboy View Post

Purchased on Friday, this unit is labeled as a DTA800, not as a DTA800A or DTA800B.

did this unit have a SmartAntenna jack or not?
the B's do, the A's don't.

if there was no indication on the box about the B
or the SmartAntenna jack, are you able to open
the box in Walmart to check? or is it sealed up.
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post #60 of 380
3/2/08 at 3:27pm
Is there an "A" or "B" in the serial number???
Does the IPG look any different from previous DTA-800B posts?

Perhaps you can remove the cover to jot down big chip and "tin-can" tuner part numbers....
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