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RGB Full Range and Sony XBR4 - Page 6

post #151 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_j_johnson View Post

Good post Codelogic.

So, if I set my display and the PS3 to RGB Full 0 to 255, then how come SD-DVD and Blu-Ray movies using YCbCr 16 to 235 dont require a recalibration of the display? They look exactly the same as when setting the display and the PS3 to RGB Limited 16 to 235.

EDIT: Is it possible the RGB Full/Limited setting has no effect on video content using YCbCr?

Mike, my observation was with reference to games and possibly the XMB only. It's very possible that video is handled in a different way.
post #152 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Except there is no extra content. "Full" scales the limited range to the full range. The original source material doesn't change.

There is no scaling/remapping at all -- rgb full passes the full 24bit srgb image to the display at 0-255. If the display can show 0-15 information and 236-255 you will not have black crush.

For limited displays, 0 is remapped to 16 and 255 is remapped to 235 so there is no 'black' crush.

However, on limited displays there is "color" crush as 0-255 is forced to fit within 16-235. Some displays will readily show this crush and others will not. This will be more of a 'dynamic range' issue rather than a black/white level issue. Some people may not even notice it.

My current DLP has a much bigger color gamut than my previous hdtv, and it was very apparent when switching games to full.

BD/DVD movies stay at YCbCr setting, and no recalibration is necessary as only games are effected. (Don't use rgb for movies.)

As a graphics professional I create/produce images to the highest calibrated rgb monitor/gfx card standard available at the time, and customers with substandard displays that cannot see detail due to black crush or limited color dynamic range (gamut) simply must upgrade.

Game developers are no different, they are going to output/render in the highest colorspace available to them at the time, that look good on their rgb monitors. Could you imagine if they had to render for the lowest common denominator TVs out there? Do you think they master DVDs/broadcast TV to a 'regular' TV as well?

Basically, what CodeLogic already said.
post #153 of 438
I just wanted to say that even though I agree with CodeLogic and Jond0, I appreciate the feedback from everyone else including Jay_Davis.

For now, I will be using RGB FULL on my XBR4 and PS3 for games and YCbCr for movies.

...unless Sony would like to respond with more info.
post #154 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_j_johnson View Post

I just wanted to say that even though I agree with CodeLogic and Jond0, I appreciate the feedback from everyone else including Jay_Davis.

For now, I will be using RGB FULL on my XBR4 and PS3 for games and YCbCr for movies.

...unless Sony would like to respond with more info.

"Only fools don't use full" haha couldn't resist.

But seriously on my KDS-50a3000 full is the way to go. I set the PS3 to FULL and the KDS-50a3000 to AUTO.

post #155 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by saylor View Post

"Only fools don't use full" haha couldn't resist.

But seriously on my KDS-50a3000 full is the way to go. I set the PS3 to FULL and the KDS-50a3000 to AUTO.



um...really? MAny have tried this with games like Uncharted and the settings are not correct. RGB full makes everything darker and almost unwatcheable in dark scenes. I have the 60 in version of your set.
post #156 of 438
All I know is that I have to force RGB FULL on my XBR4. Auto does not seem to work.
post #157 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

um...really? MAny have tried this with games like Uncharted and the settings are not correct. RGB full makes everything darker and almost unwatcheable in dark scenes. I have the 60 in version of your set.

I wasn't being rude ... Just stating what works for me.
post #158 of 438
Does anyone know if my KDSR60XBR1 supports full RGB? Or if I *have* to use limited mode?
post #159 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ_Rage View Post

Does anyone know if my KDSR60XBR1 supports full RGB? Or if I *have* to use limited mode?

I was under the impression that RGB FULL is a HDMI 1.3 feature, but I may be wrong.

I think if your display does not have a RGB FULL/LIMITED/AUTO setting, then it is safe to assume it is a RGB LIMITED only display.
post #160 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by saylor View Post

I wasn't being rude ... Just stating what works for me.

Please don't read into my words, I wasn't thinking you were rude but I apologize if my response sounded anything but curious and sincere.
Many of us are trying to figure out the RGB thing and it is weird the results we get when both SOny products are capable of full RGB and should sync well, but they don't and we get black crush and unwatchable/unplayable dark scenes with both set to RGB full.
post #161 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Please don't read into my words, I wasn't thinking you were rude but I apologize if my response sounded anything but curious and sincere.
Many of us are trying to figure out the RGB thing and it is weird the results we get when both SOny products are capable of full RGB and should sync well, but they don't and we get black crush and unwatchable/unplayable dark scenes with both set to RGB full.

All I know is ... I am setting my PS3 to RGB FULL and my KDS-50a3000 to AUTO.

I am using "Alluringreality Settings" Link below:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12247850

I think it looks great ... It does not seem to crush my blacks, and if it does it is ever so slightly. When I set the PS3 to LIMITED and the KDS-50a3000 to AUTO it makes the colors fade and seems to almost get a film or haze over the image.

When I set the PS3 to FULL and the KDS-50a3000 to FULL it makes the picture like I have it set to limited, all hazy,lifeless,colorless etc ...

Anyway, I am very happy with the image I am getting using the settings I have posted and RGB FULL on PS3 and my KDS-50a3000.
post #162 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

um...really? MAny have tried this with games like Uncharted and the settings are not correct. RGB full makes everything darker and almost unwatcheable in dark scenes. I have the 60 in version of your set.

Don't confuse them with facts, they've completely convinced themselves otherwise.
post #163 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Don't confuse them with facts, they've completely convinced themselves otherwise.

LMAO
post #164 of 438
To be fair, this is a messy issue because Sony doesn't publish enough info. These stupid settings can (and sometimes do) behave differently depending on exactly what you are outputting (games, movies, still images, etc...) and can be affected by other settings. That, on top of the lack of information about what TVs do from their manufacturers, make this much more complicated than it needs to be.
post #165 of 438
i don't know about you Sony owners, but Samsung LCD's also have the option of switching between full and limited (labeled "HDMI Black level - low/normal"). when i set both my PS3 and samsung to Full, i see increased banding (a good place to notice this is when its day time and you're viewing the default xmb theme). when both are set to limited, its still there, but less noticeable. i recall when this setting was first introduced (1.80 i believe) sspears here at avsforum said that its best to set it to limited, unless you want increased banding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

So I just tested RGB @ full and you want to leave it as limit, unless you like to increase banding.

RGB @ Limit - Levels stay where they are. Y 1, CbCr 128 will be RGB 1, 1, 1 when done.
RGB @ Full - Levels get compressed. Y 1, CbCr 128 will be RGB 16, 16, 16 when done. (Best guess based on looking at image)
Full is different than the usual expansion where Y 16, CbCr 128 becomes RGB 0, 0, 0.

The best video quality is:

Output - YCbCr
RGB - Limit
Super White - On

BTB is still passed when RGB is set to limit, just bring brightness up to see it. Then turn brightness back down where it belongs. When you set brightness based on RGB limit and then switch to RGB full, you will see the BTB stripe. This is because you just remapped Y 7, CbCr 128 (the BTB stripe) to a much higher value

mind you, this was back when 1.80 was released. but even now, when switching between full and limited, i do notice increased banding.
post #166 of 438
I have a sony kdf-e42a10 (2 yr old rear projection lcd) I've tried RGB full a month or so ago and it looks good but blacks were crushed. Does my tv support RGB full? I see that some of you are saying that you have an option on your tv to switch to auto/full, I haven't found this option on my tv so I'm wondering if my tv just doesn't support RGB full.
post #167 of 438
excellent thread. Does what is being said for the XBR4 also apply to the JVC-RS1 projector?
post #168 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by ad74 View Post

I set mine to limited, when I had it set on full it created a black crush.

You got black crush when you set it to full? That doesn't make sense from what I think others are describing. Maybe it isn't clear what full and limited means. Could someone explain in technical detail what each is doing?

Scott
post #169 of 438
I have a xbr2
I had the ps3 set to full for a while and had dvd/bds forcing YCbCr for movies with super white engaged. I noticed that the blacks on games were crushed but I wan't going to f with the brightness everytime I watched a movie, I was happy enough with it and my movies looked great.
I recently added bias lights to my set up and used the free bd calibration disc from avs, which had me lower my brightness a couple of notches. I have a picture save as my wallpaper and in it there is a black blanket that always showed up as uniformly black. On a whim I changed back to limited and at first I hardly noticed any difference tothe richness of my colors (thanks to the other calibrations) but I was like whoa I can see all kinds of folds, lint and details on the blanket. I popped in burnout and my jaw dropped as I can now actually see the grooves in my tires.
from this point on I am rgb limited with super whites for movies.
I suspect that color pallet in the games are not made with rgb full in mind so in the end really good callibration can give better results than the rgb full.
post #170 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by coneyparleg View Post

I have a xbr2
I had the ps3 set to full for a while and had dvd/bds forcing YCbCr for movies with super white engaged. I noticed that the blacks on games were crushed but I wan't going to f with the brightness everytime I watched a movie, I was happy enough with it and my movies looked great.
I recently added bias lights to my set up and used the free bd calibration disc from avs, which had me lower my brightness a couple of notches. I have a picture save as my wallpaper and in it there is a black blanket that always showed up as uniformly black. On a whim I changed back to limited and at first I hardly noticed any difference tothe richness of my colors (thanks to the other calibrations) but I was like whoa I can see all kinds of folds, lint and details on the blanket. I popped in burnout and my jaw dropped as I can now actually see the grooves in my tires.
from this point on I am rgb limited with super whites for movies.
I suspect that color pallet in the games are not made with rgb full in mind so in the end really good callibration can give better results than the rgb full.

Agreed ... I had my Sony KDS-50a3000 set to auto and PS3 to FULL I thought it looked awesome ... Man I was wrong calibrated the PS3 on limited and it looks worlds better.
post #171 of 438
Yeah me too!^^^

Funny story but for some reason if you choose FULL and set your HDMI output to YCbCr for movies. there is two completely different black levels and i too got tired of changing brightness back and forth so i left it at LIMITED instead and just calibrated that with DVE now both PS3 games and Blu-ray/DVD share the same black level.

It's bad enough that when you try and calibrate using RGB mode with BD/DVD playback it doesn't pass BTB so it's hard to calibrate. but when you set the mode to YCbCr for and have super white enabled BTB shows up.. go figure.

I hope sony fixes the RGB FULL issue where i shouldn't have to turn my brightness up to accomadate for the black crush it gives me, and it sucks because if you turn your brightness up for FULL mode you completely ruin DVD/BD playback.

it's my understanding that RGB FULL isn't displaying or remapping it's values correctly, hence the black crush and me having to turn brightness up to accomodate.

Will this be fixed in an firmware update? i hope so,because whilw FULL technically seems the way to go, in reality it's not being output right.

Fix it Sony!
post #172 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfingMatt27 View Post

it's my understanding that RGB FULL isn't displaying or remapping it's values correctly, hence the black crush and me having to turn brightness up to accomodate.

Will this be fixed in an firmware update? i hope so,because whilw FULL technically seems the way to go, in reality it's not being output right.

Fix it Sony!

I don't have these problems, so I doubt it will be fixed in a firmware update.

Brandon
post #173 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

I don't have these problems, so I doubt it will be fixed in a firmware update.

Brandon

So you are using RGB FULL and have no black crush ?? Weird
post #174 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by saylor View Post

So you are using RGB FULL and have no black crush ?? Weird

When I used RGB Limited I had black crush with DVD playback on my HTPC over DVI/HDMI. When I changed it to RGB Full the black crush went away, but other color things happened that I haven't isolated yet.

You are talking about a firmware update. Is there a way that you know of to download and update the firmware on the XBR4?

Scott
post #175 of 438
It's funny how brightness is so much brighter using HDMI over component.. with component before i had to turn brightness up fairly much compared to my other sources, but with HDMI it's the opposite and i have to turn brightness down a few notches.
post #176 of 438
I know this is a Sony thread, but the PS3 FAQ brought me here and the forum moderators seem to be awfully sensitive about starting new threads... so, here's my question.

I have a Samsung HLN5065 DLP. It only has a DVI input, which I've been told only accepts RGB. So on my PS3 I should force RGB, right? I think right now it's set to Auto. Ok, so next question... what kind of RGB (full or limited) does a Samsung DLP accept? Is it 0-255 or 16-235?
My current settings are Auto, Limited, and Superwhite On. But from what I've read, maybe it should be RGB, full or limited?, and then superwhite shouldn't be an option because Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr would be disabled, right?
I really don't understand any of this... I did try RGB and Full at one point, and thought the picture looked dark, but maybe I just needed to recalibrate.
If someone could just give me the magic answer for this tv, I'd be forever grateful.
(P.S. I can't do any playing or testing atm because my color wheel is dead and awaiting replacement).
post #177 of 438
considering DVI does not support YCbCr, in your case, "Auto" should be using RGB regardless, so you don't really have to force it. and you're right, you should not be concerned about Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr super-white at all.

now, to use Full or Limited... in your case, it doesn't really matter as long as you calibrate accordingly. you will be forced to use RGB for both blu-ray/dvd and games, so your TV settings (brightness, contrast, color etc.) should work for both. most people that have TV's with HDMI are forced to use one over the other (in most cases, its Limited) in order to match the levels of YCbCr so they can use the same settings for both blu-ray/dvd and games.
post #178 of 438
Got a PS3 this week. Been playing around with the various settings. I did the "test" to see if my TV (Vizio 47" LCD) supports RGB...test says it does...ive seen posts on various forums that also say it does...but it does not look good.

This is what I ended up with for my settings...

Output - YCbCr
RGB - Limit
Super White - On

I then used the calibration disk linked in this thread to re-calibrate my HDTV settings.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

I tried all the other combinations but most of them looked bad and/or did not render the BTB test patterns.

BR Movies looks really nice.

I only have one game for the PS3...burnout paradise...so have not spent much time seeing how video games look. I can say that Burnout Paradise on my XBOX 360 over VGA looks much better than on the PS3...not sure if I have something setup wrong or if thats just the way it is.
post #179 of 438
I have ps3 paired with the 46 xbr4

After 6 hours of reading all calibration and ps3 related thread, i've decided to keep them on

Output - Auto
RGB - Full on both ps3 and tv
Super White - On

can't be happier
post #180 of 438
^ i recommend you force output to Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr instead of using "Auto", just in case..
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