RGB Full Range and Sony XBR4 - Page 3

No, the PS3 never outputs BTB using RGB (It actually did after the first update to include this option but changed on subsequent updates).

If you calibrated your TV properly or if your TV only handles standard range, setting RGB to FULL will crush the ends of your black and white ranges.

Sorry, no.

I remember a ways back seeing people discussing a specific issue with certain Samsung DLPs where they expect a FULL range PC style signal when they get RGB information. I don't remember the details but yours may be one of the oddball TVs that the FULL setting is there for. You might want to search through the Samsung owners threads in the rear projection forum to find out if your TV is one of those and exactly what the behavior was.

My post earlier already proved that XMB is encoded in the full color space. If you are using limited range RGB TVs, obviously you can't test what I wrote, but I encourage everyone else with newer TVs that have the options of RGB full and limited (or HDMI Black Level NORMAL and LOW on Samsung LCD) to understand what I wrote. Because you sound like you have the older type of TV, that is ALSO WHY your colors appear to be correct as RGB limited is the correct setting on your PS3.

By the way, newer HDTVs aren't "oddball" TVs. I believe that word is a little offensive to many newer HDTV owners here, me included. These TVs are just newer, not oddball.

Do you have the option of HDMI black level "NORMAL" and "LOW" in your TV options?

No, I don't have this option on mine. I did turn the dynamic black option off though.

At this point, without proof (from either one of us), we are both in the wrong.

I hear you basically stating that the PS3 has a RGB FULL setting so it can be used on a dedicated computer display...
...yet, you claim the XBR4/5 does not qualify as a computer display for a PS3 (even though the XBR4/5 has a RGB FULL setting of its own)...
...yet, you claim the XBR4/5 does qualify as a computer display if you hook an actual computer up to it (and that is why the XBR4/5 has its own RGB FULL setting)....
....help me understand this (maybe I am just being a n00b here, but this logic does not make sense to me).

The way I understand it is that:

SD-DVD uses BT.601 (may be converted to BT.709 when upscaled) and Blu-Ray uses BT.709. Both are in the YCbCr 16 to 235 color space. See wikipedia.org. Also verified by Amirm (the former Microsoft HD-DVD contact on these forums).

PS3 games and XMB are rendered in a computer graphics adapter supplied by nVIDIA (RSX) in the 0 to 255 *computer* RGB Full color space (most likely mapped to the RGB limited color space if using a RGB limited display - older non-XBR4/5 displays and non-computer displays). This would seem like common sense to me, but I will need to research for proof, so I am admitting I may be wrong.

EDIT: Here is some info straight from the source -- SONY --
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2007/...ming-tomorrow/

and here:
http://manuals.playstation.net/docum...fullrange.html


And you still are dodging my question. Do YOU have an XBR4 or XBR5 or a HDTV display with a RGB FULL setting that you have tested your claims on?

Do you yourself have proof of your claims?

What about the option with the contrast one? Should that be turned to full or limited too? I have the Sammy LCD. Same as the 360 kiosks.

Please stop. You proved nothing and "oddball" just means "not the norm".

These newer TVs with this special mode have it so to make them work better as a computer monitor. However, if you have the TV in this special mode and the PS3 in this mode you will get the EXACT SAME RESULTS as with the TV in normal mode and the PS3 in limited mode.

If the XMB and games were actually using the extended range, everyone using "limited" would have details in the picture missing. They don't.

also games and xmb utilize "deep color" so if your display supports it use it

Not for nothing, but I know exactly how to prove this and I really don't need to because I understand what is going on. If you refuse to believe it and need proof, feel free to spend all the time (and cost) you want to go through the process.

The XBR4/XBR5 have that feature to make them work better as a computer monitor. It's a good feature if you want to connect a PC to it. My Sony doesn't have it. It does accept the full range (so I can see BTB and WTW) but it always expects the standard color space (ie 16 = black). If I set RGB to FULL, I do see the black get blacker and the white get brighter (because the TV can display the full range), but the colors are off because it assumes a standard color space and is calibrated as such.

The PS3 graphic adapter can put out whatever you want. With HDMI it's all digital so there's no DACs involved, thus the difference between a value of 16 being black and 0 being black is simply up to the software. The PS3 software is geared to output to televisions, because that is what they expect most people to be using it with. Would you make games where graphic details would disappear on most peoples TVs? Remember that the RGB FULL option didn't even exist in the original software. Thus the software assumes 16 is black and uses that range. The RGB FULL setting just maps that limited range to the full range (thus a 16 becomes a 0) for PC monitors (or certain TVs) that always assume 0 is black and have no way to change it.

This gets a little more complicated when outputting analog signals because there's an extra step involved and usually ends up putting more restrictions on what you can and can't do. That's why the RGB setting only affects HDMI output.

Just as a side note, the RGB setting should really have 3 options:
LIMITED: force all values into the 16-235 range
STRETCH: map 16-235 values to 0-255
FULL: Use and pass the full 0-255 range (you could then see BTB and WTW)
Right now what they call "FULL" is really "STRETCH" and there is no real "FULL" mode.

Awesome response. Now we are getting somewhere!

I asked this RGB FULL/LIMITED question on another forum and was essentially told something similiar.

Games and the XMB are most likely natively encoded in the RGBA color space (may depend on the game), but will output based on the settings you change in the PS3.

This makes sense then that PS3/Display set to FULL is the same as PS3/Display set to Limited.

So the next question is...if games/xmb/movies currently do not *natively* support x.v.color, RGB FULL, deep color, etc., then we all really should be using the RGB Limited for XMB/Games and YCbCr for movies (and all the other stuff turned off).

Should "Super White" be turned on when using YCbCr for movies? I dont think any movies support Super White either.

For those of you that really care about picture quality, keep in mind that using full 0-255 can definitely cause the top end your grayscale to shift badly. The warm mode on most HDTVs is factory set for 16-235 (approximately). By using 0-255 you can run out of red somewhere around 235 which you can only correct by turning your main contrast down or going into your service menu and adjusting your sub picture or sub contrast until 255 lines up with where you run out of red. At that point you'd have to check your grayscale and make sure it still lines up correctly, and if not then you'd have to perform another grayscale using a calibration pattern while outputting 0-255.

I just use the standard 16-235 since I am more concerned about Blu-Ray movie quality then the possibility of a slight amount of banding when playing games.

[quote=slumpey326;12420221]
Auto

Is warm1 or warm2 factory set to 16 to 235?

All the color temperature settings should be. I don't think many HDTV manufacturers expect full RGB to be input into these sets by many customers (unless there is a VGA input and it would only apply to that input).

Even with a 16-235 signal you still have to adjust your contrast in warm mode so that 235 lines up with where you run out of red, even if you still are not properly clipping above 235 using a gray ramp pattern.

Keep in mind that with a 0-255 signal you are most likely going to have to lower your contrast or you will probably white clip somewhere between 235 and 255. You'd have to display a ramp pattern with values from 235 to 255 to make sure you are getting the full range. Inputting a full 0-255 can actually cause you to clip off the higher end of white if you don't calibrate properly. Obviously your brightness has to be set correctly so you don't clip black either (crushed blacks). After all that, your grayscale still has to be taken into consideration.

Also inputting 0-255 only really makes sense if your HDTV has atleast 255 digital steps between full off and full on for each color after calibration. If a HDTV has fewer steps then that, you can still end up with the same banding you'd get using 16-235. Setting brightness and contrast on digital set is really just lining up 16/235 or 0/255 with the full off and full on steps (or mainly full on for red if you are using a warm color temperature AKA D65).

--PS3 Settings--

RGB Full Range (HDMI) = Limited ***Full would *stretch* the 16 to 235 limited color space to 0 to 255. Stretching is changing the source in my opinion and that is bad. Apparently the PS3 was designed with the assumption that the majority of users will be using TVs and most all TVs are designed for the 16 to 235 color space.

Y Pb / Cb Pr / Cr Super-White (HDMI) = OFF or ON ***ON is only for x.v.Color sources from what I have read (see link below...this is how I understood it), but ON seems to pass YCbCr BTB 0 to 15 and WTW 236 to 255 when calibrating. It has no effect in SD-DVD/Blu-Ray movies since they are YCbCr 16 to 235:
http://manuals.playstation.net/docum...uperwhite.html

BD / DVD Video Output Format (HDMI) = Automatic ***SD-DVD/Blu-Ray are encoded natively in the "Y Pb / Cb Pr / Cr" 16 to 235 color space. Not sure if there are RGB encoded discs out there, so let the PS3 determine with the automatic setting.

BD 1080p 24 Hz Output (HDMI) = Automatic ***XBR4 and XBR5 displays will run 24p sources at 24FPS*5 or 120Hz as long as M.E. is set to OFF and Cinemotion is set to OFF or Auto2. I like Automatic settings (assuming they work), so let the PS3 decide if your display supports 24 FPS content.

--XBR4/XBR5 settings--

Motion Enhancer = Off ***Unless you want interpolated frames instead of copied frames to get to 120 FPS or 120Hz. Interpolated frames are new frames created by using math to guess what the frame should look like. This can minimize jumpiness and judder, but it can also cause some strange side effects and artifacts.

Cinemotion = Off or Auto2 ***Auto2 will disable M.E. for film sources and also extract 24 FPS film frames from film that has been converted to 30 FPS video using 3-2 pull down (i.e. SD-DVD). Cinemotion extracts the 24 FPS film by using reverse 3-2 pull down. If you watch non-Blu-Ray film content, then leave this on Auto2. Otherwise, turn it Off.

RGB Dynamic Range = Auto ***Let the display decide if it is receiving limited 16 to 235 or full 0 to 255. Full may come into play if the PS3 starts offering RGB FULL 0 to 255, YCbCr 0 to 255, x.v.Color, Deep Color, etc. sources via games and/or Blu-Ray.

Color Matrix = Auto ***ITU601 is for SD-sources and ITU-709 is for HD sources. Let the TV decide. Hopefully the PS3 is reporting this correctly to the TV. The former Microsoft HD-DVD rep on this forum (Amirm) said that many upconverting SD-DVD players dont bother to convert from 601 to 709 and most HD displays assume all HD content is 709, so the end result is incorrect colors (601 source being played on a 709 display). If the XBR is detecting which format is being sent and the PS3 is not properly converting, then it is possible that upconverted SD-DVD is displaying at 601 on the XBR when using the auto setting. Hopefully the PS3 is taking the 601 source and properly converting it to 709 and then the XBR is seeing 709 and showing this as the end result.

Keep in mind the above is all my opinion based on my research thus far. I am still learning, but it sounds like there are no current sources that support x.v.Color, Deep Color, YCbCr 0 to 255 & RGB FULL 0 to 255 (unless you are using a computer, but we are talking about the PS3 in this thread). So at this point, I am thinking you can turn off all these types of bells and whistles.

EDITED - Fixed incorrect/missing info

Actually when super white is enabled it allows 236-255 to transmitted over HDMI when sending Y Cr Cb for movies. If you leave super white disabled, the PS3 will automatically clip 236-255 as opposed to calibrating your TV to clip 236-255 through your TVs user menu. Enabling super white is useful for calibrating your contrast setting with test patterns that contain whiter then white info. If your contrast is set correctly, you can enable or disable it and there should be no difference.


Actually upconverted SD should always be converted to 709. The only time you should change this from auto is if you know for a fact that your source is incorrectly sending 601 material in 720p/1080i/1080p. HD should always be 709. An incorrect source can not report being 601 to your TV. Your TV will always assume it's receiving 709 when it's a HD signal. As such auto in this case means your TV will use the 709 color space for HD unless you manually change it.

Played around with Super White tonight and I agree with what you are saying. Super White is allowing YCbCr BTB 0 to 15 and WTW 236 to 255. Leaving it ON is good for calibration, but it appears to have no effect in current Blu-Ray movies (that I can see). This would make sense since Blu-Ray is encoded in YCbCr 16 to 235 anyways. I bet we will only see this take effect in the movies themselves if/when x.v.Color content is released. The PS3 manual makes one think that Super White is a x.v.Color feature only.

So you are saying the PS3 should take 601 SD-DVD and properly convert it to 709 when upscaling to HD. I wonder how we could find out if it is really doing this? The former Microsoft HD-DVD rep on this forum (Amirm) said that many upconverting SD-DVD players dont bother to convert from 601 to 709 and most HD displays assume all HD content is 709, so the end result is incorrect colors (601 source being played on a 709 display). If the XBR is detecting which format is being sent and the PS3 is not properly converting, then it is possible that upconverted SD-DVD is displaying at 601 when using the auto setting on the XBR. Hopefully the PS3 is taking the 601 source and properly converting it to 709 and then the XBR is seeing 709 and showing this as the end result.

Yes, and yes.

As far as movies to test Superwhite with, I don't know. Perhaps a good question to ask in the Blu-Ray software forum. Someone there will probably know.

Don't hold your breath on x.v color. Blu-Ray nor HD-DVD support any extended color spaces. Technically, the PS3 can pass it and games could take advantage of it, but nothing does now and who knows at what point someone will think it's important enough to include. The developers are still trying to figure out how to do standard graphics with the PS3.

It shouldn't have any effect on either DVDs or Blu-Rays if they are encoded and mastered properly. Technically with DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray 0-16 and 236-255 are off limits and no material should be encoded using those ranges. However BTB and WTW are very useful for calibration purposes. Most people that calibrate would rather have BTB and WTW sent to the TV and clip it themselves rather then have the source clip. The standard is 0-255 being sent over HDMI/DVI with 0-15 and 236-255 being toe and head room which is a hold over from analog.


Yes the PS3 should convert 601 dvd to 709 when outputting a HD signal. I don't use the PS3 as a DVD player, so I'm not sure exactly what it does. The TV cannot detect which color space is being sent to it as far as I know. The TV will just default to 709 for HD signals and 601 for SD signals when set to auto. Also unless you've gone in and altered the color decoder settings in the service menu, most likely the colors are way off anyway. I know that the colors were way off on my 70" XBR2 SXRD until I corrected them. You will only get accurate colors after calibration with Sony TVs (and just about every other manufacturer for that matter). Unfortunately the goal for every manufacturer seems to be to stand out on the showroom floor. The consequence of this is that most TVs look like garbage until they have had most of the extra processing disabled in the user menu and been properly calibrated.

Can you recommend a good method to calibrate color? I have no idea how to do this....should I get some sort of calibration Blu-Ray disc?

You'd have to inquire in the calibration forum what people recommend for calibrating Blu-Ray. As far as I know, no one has released a good calibration disc for Blu-Ray yet.

There are atleast 2 choices for HD-DVD. One is Digital Video Essentials HD which is a HD-DVD/DVD combo disc. the other is one released on avs for free just recently http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496. Both of those have 709 color patterns for adjusting your color decoder. However if you go with the free one from AVS, you do have to have red, green and blue color filters to use it. The Digital Video Essentials disc comes with the red, green and blue filters.

Someone did release some 1080p test patterns for the PS3, but you'd have to move them there with a memory stick or other means. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=792832. Whether they are 100% accurate is another question, but they are sure to get you closer then you are now.

If you wait a few weeks, the free AVS version is supposed to be released on a Blu-Ray compatible ISO. So keep an eye on http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496.

WOW what a difference turning off FULL makes. When I had it on when playing Uncharted, everything was so dark. The blacks were crushed and the HDR lighting wasn't displaying at full capacity. It was there, but wasn't bright enough.

When I turned it to limited, everything looked great. The lighting looked beautiful and the blacks weren't crushed.

And for the record, here's what my settings looked like on my TV:

Contrast-90
Brightness-50
Color-cool 1

If you set the PS3 to full without recalibrating afterwards, most HDTVs will crush black, crush white and most likely clip both so that you can't see detail in either.

To my surprise, I did the same. My A3000 has an RGB full setting. Since I thought the PS3 games are RGB and the PS3 can do Full and so can my tv, I had everything set to FULL. I changed the PS3 to limited and WOW is right. Changing the tv from full to limited to auto, doesn't do anything.