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RGB Full Range and Sony XBR4 - Page 4

post #91 of 438
Sorry to beat a dead horse on this (and I am not trying to offend anyone...just trying to get to the bottom of this), but I asked about RGB FULL at the Beyond3D forum (very knowledgeable folks there just like here) and was told that essentially if your display supports it, then turn it on. You think this guy is correct? Here is the conversation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pux View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeljamesjohnson
AVSForum members are convinced that the PS3 simply stretches the RGB Limited "16 to 235" color space to "0 to 255" when turning on RGB Full on both the display and the PS3. They claim the PS3 still sends a "16 to 235" signal no matter what. At least this is the way I understood it. I have several questions...

1. Do you think XMB and PS3 games use sRGB?

Yes.
The native format (or framebuffer format) for XMB and Game is sRGB.
And sRGB is identical with full-range RGB in PS3.
So you had better turn on "full-range RGB" if you have a receiver that also suppors full-range RGB, and you get lossless singnal.
The reason why limited-range RGB (that offers degraded signal) is default is that limited-range RGB is defined as default format in HDMI specification.
Even more full-range RGB is not valid format before HDMI1.3 (except DVI compatible output)


Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeljamesjohnson
2. Do you think the XMB and PS3 game sources will really take advantage of RGB 0 to 15 and 236 to 255 when turning on RGB FULL? Maybe it is not a source thing, but instead the way the RSX renders and ouputs the color space?

XMB and Game always render in sRGB regardless of what range you choose.
HDMI Tx stretches to limited-range RGB if limited-range RGB is set.


Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeljamesjohnson
3. Are there any RGB or YCbCr "Deep Color" sources yet and if so, how do you turn this feature ON/OFF in the PS3? This is a color depth feature, and I dont see any settings. My XBR4 supports 10bit color sources rather than just 8bit. The HDMI.org site advertises that this is a PS3 feature.

It is auto-configured if your receiver supports deep color.
There are few deep color source though, deep color & limited-range RGB provieds almost the same quality as 8bit full-range RGB.
The only REAL deep color source I Know is "Foldingf@Home".


Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeljamesjohnson
4. Do any YCbCr sources (SD-DVD/Blu-Ray) take advantage of x.v.Color (aka xvYCC)? This is a color gamut setting that extends YCbCr from 16 to 235 to 0 to 255 kinda like the RGB LIMITED vs. FULL setting. My XBR4 and Onkyo receiver both have x.v.Color settings I can turn on. HDMI.org says that this is a PS3 feature.

It is auto-configured, if "Super White" is set and your receiver supports xv.Color.
But both DVD and BD have not support xv.Color yet.
AVCHD is only xv.Color source at present I suppose.
XMB and Game never send YCbCr, that means, neither send xv.Color.

Just for reference, the framebuffer format of BD/DVD Player is YCbCr, but
the one of XMB Media Player is full-range RGB.

One more thing, xv.Color extends gamut but color-range is still the same as the one of YCbCr, while full-range RGB extends color-range but gamut is the same as the one of limited-range RGB.


Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeljamesjohnson
5. Is "Super White" the only PS3 x.v.Color setting? I cannot find any others. The setting only seems to help in calibration on Blu-Ray discs. It passes BTB 0 to 15 and WTW 236 to 255 info when calibrating. It does not seem to effect the actual movie itself.

Yes.
And because again, DVD and BD have not supported xv.Color yet though,
they usually contain Super White signal.
but unfortunately many LCD TVs can not handle Super White signal.
Try legacy CRT TV, or long for Organic EL

Sorry for my poor english.
Thanks.
post #92 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_j_johnson View Post

Sorry to beat a dead horse on this (and I am not trying to offend anyone...just trying to get to the bottom of this), but I asked about RGB FULL at the Beyond3D forum (very knowledgeable folks there just like here) and was told that essentially if your display supports it, then turn it on. You think this guy is correct? Here is the conversation...

Yes, that sounds correct. I've been saying this for a while, but PS3 supports it in games and in the XMB, so if your TV supports it, you should use it.

The OP who initially asked the question has the XBR4, same as me. In the XBR4 there is a setting to set the RGB dynamic range to "full". The TV and the PS3 communicate well, so if the TV is set to automatic it should still be able to pick up on it. But if you set the TV to full and the PS3 to limited, blacks will be off, and vice versa, creating black crush.

Brandon
post #93 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

Yes, that sounds correct. I've been saying this for a while, but PS3 supports it in games and in the XMB, so if your TV supports it, you should use it.

The OP who initially asked the question has the XBR4, same as me. In the XBR4 there is a setting to set the RGB dynamic range to "full". The TV and the PS3 communicate well, so if the TV is set to automatic it should still be able to pick up on it. But if you set the TV to full and the PS3 to limited, blacks will be off, and vice versa, creating black crush.

Brandon

Actually, it all looks the same. Limited on a limited HDTV, and full rgb on a full rgb TV looks the same to me. There is no difference.
post #94 of 438
(I don't have a Sony tv, but here is my experience with this setting) I recently got a PS3 and I posted a thread with some questions. One of the questions was about the Uncharted demo and other demos I downloaded and how washed out they looked. I asked whether something could be done about this as well, but unfortunately I got no answers. The Uncharted demo looked bad and I couldn't understad how everyone was saying that it has some of the best graphics on the PS3. The colors didn't popped, everything was foggy and I couldn't get it to look well with the settings on my set. I was really starting to be dissappointed in the PS3. Then I saw this thread and switched the RGB limited to full, just to see how it would look. To my surprise the change was pretty substantial. Now the colors really pop, the fog is gone and I can see the beautiful graphics.
post #95 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trat View Post

Actually, it all looks the same. Limited on a limited HDTV, and full rgb on a full rgb TV looks the same to me. There is no difference.

That's interesting. My experience has shown there is a difference.

Brandon
post #96 of 438
Hey Brandon, for some reason I have to force RGB to FULL rather than AUTO on my XBR4 or else it will not work. Have you tried this on your display to see if you notice a difference?
post #97 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

Yes, that sounds correct. I've been saying this for a while, but PS3 supports it in games and in the XMB, so if your TV supports it, you should use it.

NO. NO. NO. NO.

I'm no longer going to explain it or argue with anyone. Feel free to read all the earlier posts in various threads. At this point if you insist on setting it to full you don't deserve to see a better picture. If you're really lucky, your TV will adjust and you'll get the same picture. But most of you won't.
post #98 of 438
Hey Jay...

So is post #91 above incorrect?
post #99 of 438
On the XBR4 and PS3, I have this for the best PQ for my eyes:

RGB. Limited in both locations.
BD/DVD output: Y/C/R
post #100 of 438
Jay_Davis and RobertR1 have said exactly what I have found to be true. I have a Sony A3000. It has RGB full setting. I tried using Full on the PS3 and the A3000 and it isn't right. Even though it seems it should be right technically, it makes the screen way too dark with incorrect blacks/contrast. I would like to know why we have the setting and what purpose it serves. It seems it should work on tv monitors as it does on FP LCD's. Maybe it does for game mode?
post #101 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

NO. NO. NO. NO.

I'm no longer going to explain it or argue with anyone. Feel free to read all the earlier posts in various threads. At this point if you insist on setting it to full you don't deserve to see a better picture. If you're really lucky, your TV will adjust and you'll get the same picture. But most of you won't.

Feel free to withhold the explanation, as it isn't necessary. I supposed I could respond to your comments with "YES. YES...." etc, but that's not necessary. If you wish to believe and imply that what's happening on my TV with those settings and Pux's post above is incorrect, be my guest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_j_johnson View Post

Hey Brandon, for some reason I have to force RGB to FULL rather than AUTO on my XBR4 or else it will not work. Have you tried this on your display to see if you notice a difference?

Yup you're right, when I set mine to "automatic" with the PS3 set to "full" it was off.

For everybody else, feel free to ignore my comments and just go with the concensus around here that "full" is very very bad. I don't want to ruffle any feathers with real-world results and conflicting information.

Brandon
post #102 of 438
Quote:
Actually, it all looks the same. Limited on a limited HDTV, and full rgb on a full rgb TV looks the same to me. There is no difference.

After a correct calibration full should look exactly like limited does after calibration (though either can introduce banding, see below). When you calibrate, you set 0 (full) or 16 (limited) to match black on your TV. You then set 235 (limited) or 255 (full) to match peak white on your TV. After you have done that, 0 (full) and 16 (limited) should look just as black, and 235 (limited) and 255 (full) should be the same exact white. With digital TVs, you are limited by the black level and peak white level that your set is capable of. Setting contrast and brightness maps the black of the source to black on your TV and the peak white of your source to the peak white of your TV. Unless your TV has some odd quirk, after calibration full and limited should be identical (again except for possible banding, see below).

If you use full for video sources, you can introduce banding because 16-235 is stretched and remapped to 0-255.

If you use limited for RGB sources, you can introduce banding because 0-255 is compressed and remapped to 16-235.

What this means is:
1) Calibration is important whichever one you select.
2) if you are primarily into Blu-Rays, playing DVDs or streaming media then you want to use limited for optimal quality
3) if you primarily are concerned about video games, full may be a better choice, especially if you are seeing banding using limited when playing games.
4)If you aren't going to calibrate, neither full or limited are going to provide a perfect experience, though one may look "better" to you.

Unless you have a HDTV that can display better then 8 bits, your set is most likely going to cause banding no matter what you do because everything is remapped to your display screen's capabilities. Even if you use full, after calibration your HDTV probably does not have 255 steps for each color anyway. Even with PC monitors, you really have to go out of your way to get an LCD that can display a full 8 bit signal, and HDTVs are even less concerned about displaying a full 0-255 PC signal. You may actually be trying to map a full 0-255 to your HDTV that may not have enough digital steps for each color to even display the entire 16-235 limited signal. Someday when all HDTVs are 10bit or better displays, this will be a bigger deal.
post #103 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperron View Post

After a correct calibration full should look exactly like limited does after calibration (though either can introduce banding, see below). When you calibrate, you set 0 (full) or 16 (limited) to match black on your TV. You then set 235 (limited) or 255 (full) to match peak white on your TV. After you have done that, 0 (full) and 16 (limited) should look just as black, and 235 (limited) and 255 (full) should be the same exact white. With digital TVs, you are limited by the black level and peak white level that your set is capable of. Setting contrast and brightness maps the black of the source to black on your TV and the peak white of your source to the peak white of your TV. Unless your TV has some odd quirk, after calibration full and limited should be identical (again except for possible banding, see below).

If you use full for video sources, you can introduce banding because 16-235 is stretched and remapped to 0-255.

If you use limited for RGB sources, you can introduce banding because 0-255 is compressed and remapped to 16-235.

What this means is:
1) Calibration is important whichever one you select.
2) if you are primarily into Blu-Rays, playing DVDs or streaming media then you want to use limited for optimal quality
3) if you primarily are concerned about video games, full may be a better choice, especially if you are seeing banding using limited when playing games.
4)If you aren't going to calibrate, neither full or limited are going to provide a perfect experience, though one may look "better" to you.

Unless you have a HDTV that can display better then 8 bits, your set is most likely going to cause banding no matter what you do because everything is remapped to your display screen's capabilities. Even if you use full, after calibration your HDTV probably does not have 255 steps for each color anyway. Even with PC monitors, you really have to go out of your way to get an LCD that can display a full 8 bit signal, and HDTVs are even less concerned about displaying a full 0-255 PC signal. You may actually be trying to map a full 0-255 to your HDTV that may not have enough digital steps for each color to even display the entire 16-235 limited signal. Someday when all HDTVs are 10bit or better displays, this will be a bigger deal.

You mentioned DVD's and BD's the PS3 and or that the tv should be set to limited. Games for the PS3 are on Blu Ray disc. If my set has an RGB full setting as does my PS3 when I set them there is NO banding issues on games. The issue is dark, almost unwatcheable gaming in dark scenes.
post #104 of 438
Quote:


You mentioned DVD's and BD's the PS3 and or that the tv should be set to limited. Games for the PS3 are on Blu Ray disc.

To be clearer, by Blu-Ray, I meant Blu-Ray movie and video content. Game content is rendered in RGB levels whether it's on a BD, DVD or downloaded.

Quote:


If my set has an RGB full setting as does my PS3 when I set them there is NO banding issues on games. The issue is dark, almost unwatcheable gaming in dark scenes.

It's a calibration issue. You are getting "black crush" because your TV's brightness setting is too low. You can either raise your brightness, setting it by eye, or even better use a proper test pattern to set it. The same exact thing is most likely happening to the whites on your TV too.
post #105 of 438
sperron is correct. in most cases, Limited is the correct setting. as he said, in some cases setting it to full can cause banding issues. you should be able to achieve essentially the same picture by calibrating your set (specifically brightness, aka black level) to the correct setting using the proper test pattern. i recommend you use a setup disc such as Avia, Digital Video Essentials, or at least the THX optimizer test found in the setup menu of all THX optimized films (signified by a THX logo on the DVD case). PS3 games output RGB regardless but you are given the option to use RGB or Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr for Blu-Ray/DVD movies (Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr with super-white enabled is the preferred setting). in most cases, setting RGB to limited will allow you to use the same TV settings for both blu-ray/dvd movies and ps3 games.

edit: didn't realize the XBR4/5's give you the option to switch (like my samsung as well).
post #106 of 438
Bravo Sperron! And since this is a thread specifically about the XBR4/5 which is a 10-bit panel with a RGB Full/Limited setting and the PS3 with a RGB Full/Limited setting, then I think we can finally agree on the following:

If you want the native colorspace for PS3 XMB/Games, then use RGB Full on both the XBR4/5 and the PS3. This will give you "sRGB 0 to 255." Always force YCbCr for SD-DVD/Blu-Ray video/film content.
***The side-effect will be that YCbCr SD-DVD/Blu-Ray video/film content will be stretched from "YCbCr 16 to 235" to "YCbCr 0 to 255".

If you want the native colorspace for SD-DVD/Blu-Ray, then use RGB Limited on both the XBR4/5 and the PS3 and force YCbCr for SD-DVD/Blu-Ray video/film playback. This will give you YCbCr 16 to 235.
***The side-effect will be that sRGB PS3 XMB/Games will be compressed from "sRGB 0 to 255" to "sRGB 16 to 235".
post #107 of 438
Mike_j, I'm not sure if you already knew this or not, but if you leave the PS3 set to "Automatic" it will use RGB for games/XMB and Y Pr/Cr Pb/Cb for BD/DVD. That way you don't have to force either one.

Brandon
post #108 of 438
i'm pretty sure that games/xmb use RGB regardless. you can only choose between RGB or y pb/cb pr/cr for BR/DVD. the only thing you can change is the range of RGB.

also, i thought RGB full/limited doesn't affect devices that output to y pb/cb pr/cr - so if you set BR/DVD to y pb/cb pr/cr, setting your display/ps3 to full or limited should not affect BR/DVD. or am i wrong here?
post #109 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

also, i thought RGB full/limited doesn't affect devices that output to y pb/cb pr/cr - so if you set BR/DVD to y pb/cb pr/cr, setting your display/ps3 to full or limited should not affect BR/DVD. or am i wrong here?

You are correct if you set it to Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr then RGB full/limited doesn't affect it. But you can force it to display RGB instead of Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr in the PS3 menu.

There are 3 options:

Automatic
RGB
Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr

Automatic is typically the best way to go. Is that what you were questioning?

Brandon
post #110 of 438
nvm. i just thought you meant something else in your first post.
post #111 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

Mike_j, I'm not sure if you already knew this or not, but if you leave the PS3 set to "Automatic" it will use RGB for games/XMB and Y Pr/Cr Pb/Cb for BD/DVD. That way you don't have to force either one.

Brandon

Good to know. Thanks!
post #112 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

For everybody else, feel free to ignore my comments and just go with the concensus around here that "full" is very very bad. I don't want to ruffle any feathers with real-world results and conflicting information.

What, ruffle feathers confusing the daylights out of people by giving them bad information? No, never.

On a TV that supports both ranges and is properly calibrated, IT WILL LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME IN EITHER MODE! The "full"setting provides NO BENEFIT AT ALL and is there ONLY to support displays that expect a full RGB range (which is primarily computer monitors) so people with those monitors can see everything the same way everyone else does.
post #113 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

What, ruffle feathers confusing the daylights out of people by giving them bad information? No, never.

On a TV that supports both ranges and is properly calibrated, IT WILL LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME IN EITHER MODE! The "full"setting provides NO BENEFIT AT ALL and is there ONLY to support displays that expect a full RGB range (which is primarily computer monitors) so people with those monitors can see everything the same way everyone else does.

Okay, once again I apologize for confusing people with bad information. Let me now give them good information which won't confuse them: Limited=good; full=bad.

The last word is yours.

Brandon
post #114 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

What, ruffle feathers confusing the daylights out of people by giving them bad information? No, never.

On a TV that supports both ranges and is properly calibrated, IT WILL LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME IN EITHER MODE! The "full"setting provides NO BENEFIT AT ALL and is there ONLY to support displays that expect a full RGB range (which is primarily computer monitors) so people with those monitors can see everything the same way everyone else does.

Hey Jay, (honest and friendly question)...

Is post #91 completely false? This guy on the Beyond3D forums seemed to be confident with his answers too, yet I have never seen anyone show some sort of test and/or proof....yet I have seen people debate like us (each claiming they know for a fact).

We know for a fact that SD-DVD and Blu-Ray use YCbCr 16 to 235 (this is a "Limited" range and documented in the spec for these formats), but no one seems to be able to show proof of what colorspace/range the PS3 nVIDIA RSX is rendering and outputing in for the XMB and games. Is it sRGB? Is it 0 to 255 (Full) or 16 to 235 (Limited)? Etc., etc.
post #115 of 438
^^I know beyond a reasonable doubt it is RGB for BD games and XMB, because my Denon 4308ci tells exactly what the HDMI output is for video and sound. Beyond that I am clueless and will stick with Auto setting on my Sony A3000 and limited on my PS3 display settings. For BD/DVD HDMI settings, I have the PS3 set to Auto. All works well and I don't get the black crush and loss of detail like I do if I set the PS3 to RGB. This is all without calibration. I know my tv is not the one in this thread, but it seems the results are the same with the difference being FP vs RP.
post #116 of 438
Couldn't this be easy enough to test by just making an image file that has white to black gradients in all 256 shades? and then seeing if the PS3 and specific tvs can display them all?
post #117 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by zBuff View Post

Couldn't this be easy enough to test by just making an image file that has white to black gradients in all 256 shades? and then seeing if the PS3 and specific tvs can display them all?

http://sr-388.net/images/patterns/Brightness.jpg

If you can still see the 12 block on your screen while your PS3 is in Full RGB mode, it works. But then again, it looks the same as Limited on a HDTV. The Full RGB option is only for being able to handle the PC monitor color space, so you should use it for that. If your TV has this option, its there for using it with a PC. In the end, it makes no difference when you use limited on a limited TV, or Full on a Full RGB TV.
post #118 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_j_johnson View Post

Hey Jay, (honest and friendly question)...

Is post #91 completely false? This guy on the Beyond3D forums seemed to be confident with his answers too, yet I have never seen anyone show some sort of test and/or proof....yet I have seen people debate like us (each claiming they know for a fact).

We know for a fact that SD-DVD and Blu-Ray use YCbCr 16 to 235 (this is a "Limited" range and documented in the spec for these formats), but no one seems to be able to show proof of what colorspace/range the PS3 nVIDIA RSX is rendering and outputing in for the XMB and games. Is it sRGB? Is it 0 to 255 (Full) or 16 to 235 (Limited)? Etc., etc.

You can get basic proof but using some test images like the one posted above. The only way for anyone to prove it beyond a shadow (or color) of a doubt would be to take test equipment themselves which both shows the output data from the PS3, allows you feed exactly what you want to the TV, and to measure the output of the TV. Then you have real hard proof. But unless you do that yourself, you are just trusting that someone else did it even if they say they went through all that trouble to "prove" it.

Remember too, I don't doubt that "full" may indeed look better on a particular person's tv (like bplewis24) even if it's not a PC monitor. But these are the exceptions. This can happen because of the way a TV is calibrated or because of some quirk in it's operation. For example, I remember some people saying that some particular Samsung DLPs expected full range RGB when in 1080p mode even though it expected normal range when receiving other signal formats. So there are exceptions. The problem is that there's no documentation with TVs that give this level of information, so it's all trial and error.
post #119 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

You can get basic proof but using some test images like the one posted above. The only way for anyone to prove it beyond a shadow (or color) of a doubt would be to take test equipment themselves which both shows the output data from the PS3, allows you feed exactly what you want to the TV, and to measure the output of the TV. Then you have real hard proof. But unless you do that yourself, you are just trusting that someone else did it even if they say they went through all that trouble to "prove" it.

Remember too, I don't doubt that "full" may indeed look better on a particular person's tv (like bplewis24) even if it's not a PC monitor. But these are the exceptions. This can happen because of the way a TV is calibrated or because of some quirk in it's operation. For example, I remember some people saying that some particular Samsung DLPs expected full range RGB when in 1080p mode even though it expected normal range when receiving other signal formats. So there are exceptions. The problem is that there's no documentation with TVs that give this level of information, so it's all trial and error.

One theory then is that the PS3 RSX could indeed be rendering and outputting 0 to 255 RGB Full for the XMB and games, but if the user has their display set to limited and the PS3 set to limited, then the range is most likely re-mapped to 16 to 235 RGB Limited. But in order to view the original natively in its lossless format, then you would want to use RGB Full on both the display and the PS3.

Second theory is that the source (i.e. XMB and games) maybe be natively encoded in limited, full or both?

Third theory could be a combination of the two above.

I have calibrated too (using the image posted above) in RGB Full mode on my XBR4 and PS3 and XMB. Games, SD-DVD & Blu-Ray all look just fine to me. Yet, when I switch to limited, nothing changes (meaning that I do not have to re-calibrate). This leads me to believe that there is re-mapping involved.

Personally, I think the only way we will get a definite answer is from a Sony insider.

If this ever happens, then I demand a mod put a sticky up in the PS3 forum! LOL!
post #120 of 438
I'm very noob to this whole thing and seem to get about 80% (maybe less) of what is tossed about in this thread. I am wondering though why XMB is referenced here so often? Are you using it as a color target or something ? I'm assuming XMB meanCross Media Bar?.. right? What is the XMB's importance ?

Following with interest as I have an XBR4
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