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PS3 Version 2.0X Firmware - Master Thread - Page 7

post #181 of 214
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason One View Post

Ron, I have a slight correction for your instructions about BTB and WTW in the first post:


You suggest that Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr alone will enable BTB, and Super-White on will enable WTW.

However, they are not separated like that. I believe you'll find that Super-White is needed for both BTB and WTW. When Super-White is off, you will get neither BTB nor WTW. When it is on, you'll get both.

Thanks - I'll update the first post. I had assumed that superwhite would simply let the digital values above white (236-255) be output.
post #182 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Thanks - I'll update the first post. I had assumed that superwhite would simply let the digital values above white (236-255) be output.

Yeah, "Super-White" is kind of a misleading name.

Thanks, and good job on this thread by the way!
post #183 of 214
Okay, so I'm thinking of buying a 40GB PS3, specifically to watch Blu-Ray discs on my HD-ready Sony CRT (KV-40XBR800), which accepts 1080i via either DVI (studio RGB) or analog YPbPr, and displays it with full vertical resolution (alhough the aperture grill does limit the horizontal resolution to something like 853 columns). But before I spend my money, I'd like to get this BTB issue nailed down.

I gather that since firmware revision 1.81, the PS3 will not pass BTB over digital RGB, no matter how it's set up. Has anybody tried getting it to pass BTB over an analog component connection? I wouldn't really care about this if I owned a fixed-pixel display; however, as with all CRTs, my Sony's black point varies depending on the average picture level, and I have to calibrate it using a high-APL PLUGE pattern. This, in turn, means that when displaying a scene with a low APL, any clipping of BTB data could (at least theoretically) result in visible black crushing.

Assuming that BTB over analog YPbPr isn't possible, could I at least downgrade to the 1.80 firmware? Or does that only work with the 20GB/60GB models? (And for that matter, does Sony even make the old firmware available to its customers?)

Thanks very much!
post #184 of 214
You can not downgrade to a previous firmware on any model.
post #185 of 214
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Curtis View Post

Okay, so I'm thinking of buying a 40GB PS3, specifically to watch Blu-Ray discs on my HD-ready Sony CRT (KV-40XBR800), which accepts 1080i via either DVI (studio RGB) or analog YPbPr, and displays it with full vertical resolution (alhough the aperture grill does limit the horizontal resolution to something like 853 columns). But before I spend my money, I'd like to get this BTB issue nailed down.

I gather that since firmware revision 1.81, the PS3 will not pass BTB over digital RGB, no matter how it's set up. Has anybody tried getting it to pass BTB over an analog component connection? I wouldn't really care about this if I owned a fixed-pixel display; however, as with all CRTs, my Sony's black point varies depending on the average picture level, and I have to calibrate it using a high-APL PLUGE pattern. This, in turn, means that when displaying a scene with a low APL, any clipping of BTB data could (at least theoretically) result in visible black crushing.

Assuming that BTB over analog YPbPr isn't possible, could I at least downgrade to the 1.80 firmware? Or does that only work with the 20GB/60GB models? (And for that matter, does Sony even make the old firmware available to its customers?)

Thanks very much!

I can't answer your question of whether BTB is passed via analog component out of the PS3 (at 1080i) since I don't have one of the optional component video cables with which I could test it (I would guess that BTB is passed, but that's just a guess). However, I don't agree with your statement that "...any clipping of BTB data could (at least theoretically) result in visible black crushing." Since BTB (by definition) does not include any information that is intended to be displayed (except on test patterns), the failure to pass or display BTB cannot be considered black crush. Black Crush is when the range of darkest gray levels and black are compressed, frequently into a single shade of dark gray or black. BTB utility is for use with test patterns for calibration of a TV/monitor such that BTB is displayed as black (i.e., BTB is not visible on the display). The DVE test disc does include instruction for use the pluge test pattern to set black level for either the case where the monitor can display BTB or not.
post #186 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason One View Post

Ron, I have a slight correction for your instructions about BTB and WTW in the first post:


You suggest that Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr alone will enable BTB, and Super-White on will enable WTW.

However, they are not separated like that. I believe you'll find that Super-White is needed for both BTB and WTW. When Super-White is off, you will get neither BTB nor WTW. When it is on, you'll get both.

I wish I had read this yesterday. I spent over an hour with my PS3 and A3000 trying every combination I could find to produce BTB. The only one I never touched was the Super-White setting! I'll have to go back and fix that. Does anybody have any recommended settings for the A3000's regarding color spaces and the like with these settings from the PS3?

Tim
post #187 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpaxadpom View Post

AVchemE,
have you seen this press release http://www.siliconimage.com/news/pre...se.aspx?id=384 ?

tpaxadpom,
Thank you, thank you, thank you!! Finally, a press release strongly implying that the SI9132 won't support the high definition sound formats. Obviously this is an old press release, so I don't know why we spent so much time arguing about it.

Ron, could you change you change the reference link about DTS-HD etc to the one tpaxadpom sent? I think this is more credible.

Of course I'm not happy to find this out, but I'm relieved to have some kind of closure
post #188 of 214
So we can't get BTB over an HDMI connection. Right??
post #189 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpaxadpom View Post

AVchemE,
have you seen this press release http://www.siliconimage.com/news/pre...se.aspx?id=384 ?

“Sony has indicated that the PlayStation 3 is expected to ship in November of this year with the ability to render the highest-quality video ever seen in a consumer device,” said Dale Zimmerman, vice president of marketing at Silicon Image. “The SiI 9133 receiver matches the capabilities of the PlayStation 3 and makes it possible for HDTV manufacturers to ship products this year that are capable of displaying Deep Color images, for the highest-quality gaming experience and fullest enjoyment of high-definition movies. The SiI 9134 brings these same benefits to next generation DVD players, with additional support for the latest high-quality audio formats, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.”
I think this says it all.

That post is also totally confusing...the PS3 is compatible with deep color as is the 9133 receiver found in deep color supporting TVs. The 9134 (in the A35, 1400, etc) is the chip to send the bitstream of audio and support deep color. Now the thing this doesn't mention is the 9135 which is the 1.3 chip in the new receivers to receive the bitstream of TrueHD and DTSHDMA. And as always it doesn't mention the PS3's chip, the 9132, which we still really don't know if it can only do deep color or if it is the same as the 9134 and can bitstream TrueHD and DTSHDMA.

Sending bitstream shouldn't have been too dificult to implement and the bandwith of the 9132 and 9134 are identical. So the only difference listed in the Silicon Image financial report is that the 9134 was for DVD players and the 9132 was for game consules (and of course we know this really means game consule....ie the PS3).
post #190 of 214
Has anyone had any luck getting BTB when BD/DVD output to Auto? Do we lose any video quality or color info when set to Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr versus RGB??
post #191 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonviper04 View Post

So we can't get BTB over an HDMI connection. Right??

To pass BTB you must have the PS3 set to output YCbCr/PbPr and superwhite must be turned on.
post #192 of 214
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbitrage000 View Post

That post is also totally confusing...the PS3 is compatible with deep color as is the 9133 receiver found in deep color supporting TVs. The 9134 (in the A35, 1400, etc) is the chip to send the bitstream of audio and support deep color. Now the thing this doesn't mention is the 9135 which is the 1.3 chip in the new receivers to receive the bitstream of TrueHD and DTSHDMA. And as always it doesn't mention the PS3's chip, the 9132, which we still really don't know if it can only do deep color or if it is the same as the 9134 and can bitstream TrueHD and DTSHDMA.

Sending bitstream shouldn't have been too dificult to implement and the bandwith of the 9132 and 9134 are identical. So the only difference listed in the Silicon Image financial report is that the 9134 was for DVD players and the 9132 was for game consules (and of course we know this really means game consule....ie the PS3).

According to the brief feedback provided from the chip's manufacturer provided in this thread, the 9132 cannot support bitsteaming for the advanced audio formats. As for the old news release from SIL the final sentence of the following paragraph could be read that the 9134 has the additional capability, beyond that supported by the PS3, to output the advanced audio formats via bitstream:

Sony has indicated that the PlayStation 3 is expected to ship in November of this year with the ability to render the highest-quality video ever seen in a consumer device, said Dale Zimmerman, vice president of marketing at Silicon Image. The SiI 9133 receiver matches the capabilities of the PlayStation 3 and makes it possible for HDTV manufacturers to ship products this year that are capable of displaying Deep Color images, for the highest-quality gaming experience and fullest enjoyment of high-definition movies. The SiI 9134 brings these same benefits to next generation DVD players, with additional support for the latest high-quality audio formats, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

Ron Jones
post #193 of 214
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonviper04 View Post

Has anyone had any luck getting BTB when BD/DVD output to Auto? Do we lose any video quality or color info when set to Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr versus RGB??

As long as your HDTV accepts video in YPrPb format via HDMI it should produce as good an image as using RGB format.
post #194 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimboTHX1138 View Post

To pass BTB you must have the PS3 set to output YCbCr/PbPr and superwhite must be turned on.

I did notice that using this setup - that the PS3 does NOT upconvert SD Colorspace to HDColorspace correctly (bad twisting), having it output to RGB matches . I did a read several times (Calman and ColorHCFR) using authentic true HD colors patterns, then threw in GetGray to see how the color where being upconverted and with RGB but not with YCbCr/PbPr selection.
post #195 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

However, I don't agree with your statement that "...any clipping of BTB data could (at least theoretically) result in visible black crushing." Since BTB (by definition) does not include any information that is intended to be displayed (except on test patterns), the failure to pass or display BTB cannot be considered black crush. Black Crush is when the range of darkest gray levels and black are compressed, frequently into a single shade of dark gray or black. BTB utility is for use with test patterns for calibration of a TV/monitor such that BTB is displayed as black (i.e., BTB is not visible on the display). The DVE test disc does include instruction for use the pluge test pattern to set black level for either the case where the monitor can display BTB or not.

Er...thanks for the reply, but did you read what I said about CRTs having a floating black point, so than when poperly calibrated using a high-APL pattern, BTB should be displayed during low-APL scenes? I do realize that with a fixed-pixel display, which ought to retain a constant black level regardless of APL, BTB is only useful during calibration...but like I said, I'm a CRT-owning luddite, and with CRTs, the inablilty to pass BTB does have a detrimental effect on picture quality.

See this post (and this followup) from dmunsil back in 2004, which explains the issue better than I can.
post #196 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

As long as your HDTV accepts video in YPrPb format via HDMI it should produce as good an image as using RGB format.

I have a 65 series samung LCD. I believe it does.
post #197 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Curtis View Post

Has anybody tried getting it to pass BTB over an analog component connection?

It does not pass BTB over analog component, with any FW version (well 1.50, and 1.82 through 1.93, anyway.) I haven't tried 2.0x yet.
post #198 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

It does not pass BTB over analog component, with any FW version (well 1.50, and 1.82 through 1.93, anyway.) I haven't tried 2.0x yet.

Bummer.

Oh well--thanks for letting me know!
post #199 of 214
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Curtis View Post

Er...thanks for the reply, but did you read what I said about CRTs having a floating black point, so than when poperly calibrated using a high-APL pattern, BTB should be displayed during low-APL scenes? I do realize that with a fixed-pixel display, which ought to retain a constant black level regardless of APL, BTB is only useful during calibration...but like I said, I'm a CRT-owning luddite, and with CRTs, the inablilty to pass BTB does have a detrimental effect on picture quality.

See this post (and this followup) from dmunsil back in 2004, which explains the issue better than I can.

I do understand your display is a CRT with a floating black level. My point is that commercial digital videos (DVD and BD) are not supposed to include any BTB information and its my understanding that is the case most of the time. I did have CRT front projectors (most recently two Sony models - VPH-G70 and a VPH-1271) and with both I ended up turning off the automatic picture level so that the black level wasn't floating.
post #200 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

I do understand your display is a CRT with a floating black level. My point is that commercial digital videos (DVD and BD) are not supposed to include any BTB information and its my understanding that is the case most of the time. I did have CRT front projectors (most recently two Sony models - VPH-G70 and a VPH-1271) and with both I ended up turning off the automatic picture level so that the black level wasn't floating.

Fair enough, and I apologize for my somewhat brusque reply yesterday.
post #201 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

According to the brief feedback provided from the chip's manufacturer provided in this thread, the 9132 cannot support bitsteaming for the advanced audio formats. As for the old news release from SIL the final sentence of the following paragraph could be read that the 9134 has the additional capability, beyond that supported by the PS3, to output the advanced audio formats via bitstream:

“Sony has indicated that the PlayStation 3 is expected to ship in November of this year with the ability to render the highest-quality video ever seen in a consumer device,” said Dale Zimmerman, vice president of marketing at Silicon Image. “The SiI 9133 receiver matches the capabilities of the PlayStation 3 and makes it possible for HDTV manufacturers to ship products this year that are capable of displaying Deep Color images, for the highest-quality gaming experience and fullest enjoyment of high-definition movies. The SiI 9134 brings these same benefits to next generation DVD players, with additional support for the latest high-quality audio formats, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.”

Ron Jones

With all due respect Ron, I do not understand how anyone, including yourself, can believe the "email" from that thread is any form of confirmation about anything. I asked these questions before, but they were never answered. Who is Michael? What is his position within Silicon Image? What authority does he have on the subject of the 9132? How come numerous others (including myself) have tried to contact Silicon Image about this subject and have received no answer, but somehow this one member got one? The OP of that thread even stated that the full specs of the chip require a NDA, so how is it that this "Michael" was able to spill the beans to him?

You could speculate either way based on the little information we do know about this chip. Most of the info people are basing their thoughts on doesn't even specifically mention the 9132 at all, like the paragraph you quoted. Personally, I lean towards it being unable to do it (despite what some others here might think and like to make jokes about, yes that means you Robert), but by no means do I or anyone else here know for a fact yet whether or not it does or does not have the capability. Lets please put this speculation fest to rest until something concrete comes out about this chip.
post #202 of 214
I happen to use the PS3 to view a lot photos from my PC. Zooming (push the right analog stick) while viewing photos does not work correctly since the 2.0 update. It squishes the the photo's aspect ratio. Switching to the next or previous photo then back again resets the picture, but zoom in and it goes askew again.

2.1 did nothing to fix the issue.

Nobody has even mentioned about this issue. Am I the only one experiencing it?
post #203 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaynardJames View Post

The OP of that thread even stated that the full specs of the chip require a NDA, so how is it that this "Michael" was able to spill the beans to him?

That's hardly spilling the beans. This has been common knowledge for months before I posted anything about it yet many keep hoping it is not true. The NDA info is technical details, not capabilities listed in the marketing briefs you see about other chipsets like the SiL9134 on their website.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaynardJames View Post

Lets please put this speculation fest to rest until something concrete comes out about this chip.

You seem to be speculating about the validity of an Si Engineer who has working knowledge of the 9132? This was also confirmed over the phone with engineer, I don't think you are going to get anything more concrete about this chip. What are you expecting an announcement from SCE or Si on their web page?

It's not going to happen. Move on. SiL 9132 does not support DTS-HD MA or TrueHD bitstreaming "."
post #204 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonviper04 View Post

Has anyone had any luck getting BTB when BD/DVD output to Auto? Do we lose any video quality or color info when set to Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr versus RGB??

I still get BTB when set to "auto" but you still have to have "superwhite" set to "on"...BTW...my display is an Optoma HD70 pj and the ps3 is the 20GB with 2.0 firmware.

ps...setting the PS3 to "auto" just confirmed to me that it was sending a YPbCr signal to my pj so it didnt matter if it was on "auto" or YPbCr.
post #205 of 214
Are the USB ports powered all the time now? Ever since the update I see the blue light on the Playstation Eye on even when the unit is off.

Not sure if it makes a difference but I keep the PS3's "wake on lan" option enabled.
post #206 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcase13 View Post

Are the USB ports powered all the time now? Ever since the update I see the blue light on the Playstation Eye on even when the unit is off.

Not sure if it makes a difference but I keep the PS3's "wake on lan" option enabled.

That's interesting if they are enabled perhaps there is a chance the USB to IR adaptor would work for powering on the PS3...kind of doubt it...
post #207 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcase13 View Post

...Not sure if it makes a difference but I keep the PS3's "wake on lan" option enabled.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the "Wake on LAN" is only for remote play, right? It mentions in the 2.0 firmware list that a PSP can connect even when the PS3 is not set to remote play and I believe if it's turned off also. So if you don't have a PSP there's no reason to leave "wake on lan" turned on.
post #208 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

I did notice that using this setup - that the PS3 does NOT upconvert SD Colorspace to HDColorspace correctly (bad twisting), having it output to RGB matches . I did a read several times (Calman and ColorHCFR) using authentic true HD colors patterns, then threw in GetGray to see how the color where being upconverted and with RGB but not with YCbCr/PbPr selection.

Hi Richlo ,

Are you using HDMI or Component ? Being a fellow CalMAN user I thank you for your insight .

Scott........................
post #209 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_R_K View Post

Hi Richlo ,

Are you using HDMI or Component ? Being a fellow CalMAN user I thank you for your insight .

Scott........................


HDMI...never tried component

The only way you are getting correct color twisting is to set it to RGB..
post #210 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

HDMI...never tried component

The only way you are getting correct color twisting is to set it to RGB..

Thanks Richlo , that's good news . What about the BTB and WTW measurements? What are you seeing and how do you have the PS3 options selected ?

I'm doing RGB out from the PS3 and the Oppo into an HD+ then on up to the PJ.
Working well so far .

Scott...............
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