or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › HDTV Software Media Discussion › HD Disk (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) EE and DNR list
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

HD Disk (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) EE and DNR list - Page 6

post #151 of 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

The Simsons does not have any EE. Its flawless. I am not doubting people have systems that adds EE. My system does not and that movie is about as EE free as the best of them. Anyone saying the Simpsons has EE should be seeing EE on a ton of others far more so and reporting them as their system is coloring what they are seeing.
I am watching this one at 8 feet wide and I can even turn up my sharpness on this one which even then adds no ringing.

+1.
post #152 of 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Alan, can you take the trouble to take pics of the same frames that others are using to show the EE (like the last one above)?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post12564025
post #153 of 746
Thread Starter 
I'll make a decison once we have uncompressed (or losslessly compressed) direct digital 1080p screenshots in Xylon quality to examine. Anything else won't do.
post #154 of 746
Some of the captures here and here are killing me. There's obvious mosquito noise and the EE looks like ringing, like what's seen in Shrek 3 but much much worse. I really hope this is not what's actually on the disc as this movie is a must buy for me. The h.264 trailers sure didn't have these problems.

There's no reason why this title shouldn't be 100% pristine, compression and PQ-wise. What's the file size? If you can clearly see artifacts on a cell animated frame then the bitrate must be rediculously low.
post #155 of 746
Here we go guys. I have no EE at all, impossible if its on the disk. The last picture posted is of the one posted trying to say this movie has EE.
The last picture is the original cap posted to show the EE on his system. You can see a huge difference between his and mine. I think I am even zooming way further. The transfer is clean. I believe peoples systems are introducing some nasty artifacts.

Ok I think I am close enough to the original frame on this one: one.
Here it is zoomed in from my camera. All shots are about 15 feet away to get the entire screen in.


Heres a zoom from my first full screen shot zoomed from the original picture:


Here is the second screen cap to compare. This shows the full screen about 15 feet back:

Here is a zoom from my camera:

Here is my zoom from the original picture above for comparison:

Original zoom posted above



If the ringing shown in the few caps before mine were on the disc then my setup would display the same. I have to set my sharpness to full to get anywhere close to what they are posting. As you can see even zoomed the image is free of ringing.
post #156 of 746
It's possible your setup could be masking/softening any artifacts. That being said I do see signs of ringing on the vertical line to the right of Bart in the second pic. There's actually several lines of ringing and it matches what I see in this capture:


If you look closely all the lines in the capture have this weird type of 3-tiered ringing. Just unbelievable and totally unacceptable. The source is pristine and free of this garbage.
post #157 of 746
The picture you just post is a zoom from my smaller picture posted to the forum. Anyone with a PC or Mac can do the sasme and you will see the zooming process of a posted picture will produce ringing on any picture. It is not accurate. Your zoomed picture of my picture is not accurate.
Please post a picture to this thread of a reference cap and I will do the same and show you have ringing

My system does not soften anything. If you read my previous post in the Simpson thread I use the Crystalio VP that according to Greg Rogers adds ringing. If I hook up my Lumagen wth Ring Free scaling this transfer is beyond state of the Art. Not just myself but most people in that thread are reporting no EE at all, top transfer. Its not the disc
The last picture in my post is horrendous. If it is on the disk my picture should still show EE but it is just not there. It is also not there from any of the review sites. It is also not there for most in the main Simpson thread. It was only a few who say they see it on their system. It is clear their system is introducing it.
Its as smooth as babys a$$. The EE you say you are seeing keep in mind this is zooming the original picture of the entire screen. The zoom factor is huge beyond the original cap and still very smooth. I also put this through my 7" CRT and again smooth.
Something is wrong with those few saying they are seeing serious EE & ringing.
post #158 of 746
Your first paragraph is confusing the hell out of me. I didn't post any zoomed in pics, just the above shot.

Alan, how do you explain the EE/Ringing in the above direct digital capture?
post #159 of 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Alan, how do you explain the EE/Ringing in the above direct digital capture?

I can only ask how most others do not have the ringing in his cap
People asked me to post picture of the same frame which I did. No EE. On my system it is reference. Most people in that thread also say its reference no EE. Then he comes along at the end of the thread. To me his picture looks like its 480. It looks far worse the just EE. I cannot answer questions about his cap as I do not know any details or who he is or if he is credible I can only post pictures from my system 8 feet wide without a drop of EE
post #160 of 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Your first paragraph is confusing the hell out of me. I didn't post any zoomed in pics, just the above shot.

Alan, how do you explain the EE/Ringing in the above direct digital capture?

Are you speaking of my cap or the original. I was addressing thinking the original.
The picture you posted is larger then my original. Some processing has taken place.
If you were speaking of mine here is the blowup from that same picture and I just do not see any ringing
post #161 of 746
I was speaking of both. I really think your setup or your camera is softening what's on the disc. That or there's a ringing-free discs floating out there. I'm not sure which is more disturbing.

As for this shot posted by benes, there's EE/Ringing and compression artifacts galore. What the hell went wrong?
post #162 of 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

I was speaking of both. I really think your setup or your camera is softening what's on the disc. That or there's a ringing-free discs floating out there. I'm not sure which is more disturbing.

As for this shot posted by benes, there's EE/Ringing and compression artifacts galore. What the hell went wrong?

Myslef and most others in that thread have a edge free disc
As far as benes his pic does not even come close to a true representation of what I am seeing.
As far my camera you can see a history of screen caps over the last year by this camera. It is fully capable of showing EE sadley. In this case it is just not there.
So we have a ton of happy people on the forum who say no EE and we have several review sites who say no EE then we have one guy come out of know where and post what looks like 480

All I can say is this is a tier 1 transfer

By the way if you get a chance please post a picture to this thread of a cap
from BD or HD DVD you feel is reference with no EE from your system.

Thank you!!
post #163 of 746
I don't think that's edge enhancement on those Simpsons UK screen shots (it's certainly not edge enhancement on its own). It looks like brickwall filtering which looks similar, especially on fairly simple material like The Simpsons. I have to say, it's a shame so many people are educated about EE, but are a lot less informed of the equally destructive loss of detail that occurs due to filtering.

When my (US) BD of The Simpsons Movie arrives, I'll get some frame grabs from the source. Right now Alan's images are putting a smile on my face. I'd be astonished if they managed to mess up an all digital 2D animated transfer like that.
post #164 of 746
It seems possible the black edge lines of the Simpsons are so highly detailed they would cause minor artifacts on a 720p display, depending upon how well the down-scaling was handled.

- Tom
post #165 of 746
Those frame grabs are full 1920x1080 (actually 1088, since AVC encodes need to have pixel dimensions that are multiples of 4 - the last 8 lines are usually cropped) grabs from the disc. This likely means one of the following:

1. The encode that's on the UK disc is different, and Fox have messed it up.

2. The user who captured the images' AVC decoder software is adding the ugly ringing.

3. Something else out of the user's control has altered the images in this way.

Edit: that said, I can see the tiniest trace of ringing in Alan's image here, above and below the lip. As a new owner of a Sony VPL-VW60, I've learned that the optics of a projector can be quite forgiving in masking these sort of filtering artefacts, particularly in HD. I look forward to getting my own copy of this to check it out.
post #166 of 746
Thanks for the correction Benes, everywhere I've read stated that 1088 was required for AVC. Certainly all of the Windows-based decoders I've come across have done it this way, so probably a bad assumption on my part.

Just looked at your screen shots and yep, it certainly looks like they've tampered with this one. Not killer, but very disappointing. There would surely be absolutely zero need to filter this material, especially not with bit-rates as high as the one you've posted.

It's a shame, I imagine the equipment the studios have is doing this without them realising it. It's sad that one of the downloadable Quicktime trailers doesn't have the problem but the BD does.
post #167 of 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

Thanks for the correction Benes, everywhere I've read stated that 1088 was required for AVC.

It does require 1088. Here's the syntax from Ratatouille.

Code:
C:\\xfer>h264_parse bits0001.mpv
h264_parse - mpeg4ip version 1.5.0.1
Nal length 6 start code 4 bytes
 ref 0 type 9 Access unit delimeter
   primary_pic_type: 0
Nal length 47 start code 4 bytes
 ref 3 type 7 Sequence parameter set
   profile: 100
   constaint_set0_flag: 0
   constaint_set1_flag: 0
   constaint_set2_flag: 0
   constaint_set3_flag: 0
   level_idc: 41
   seq parameter set id: 0
   chroma format idx: 1
   bit depth luma minus8: 0
   bit depth chroma minus8: 0
   Qpprime Y Zero Transform Bypass flag: 0
   Seq Scaling Matrix Present Flag: 0
   log2_max_frame_num_minus4: 12
   pic_order_cnt_type: 0
    log2_max_pic_order_cnt_lsb_minus4: 12
   num_ref_frames: 4
   gaps_in_frame_num_value_allowed_flag: 0
   pic_width_in_mbs_minus1: 119 (1920)
   pic_height_in_map_minus1: 67
   frame_mbs_only_flag: 1
     derived height: 1088                 <----- 1088
   direct_8x8_inference_flag: 1
   frame_cropping_flag: 1
     frame_crop_left_offset: 0
     frame_crop_right_offset: 0
     frame_crop_top_offset: 0
     frame_crop_bottom_offset: 4          <----- crop off 8 pixels from bottom
Ron
post #168 of 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

I used the exact same software setup that mighty Xylon uses so I can assure you nothing is being introduced here.

What software are you using? Does it feature a sharpness setting?
post #169 of 746
Thread Starter 
I'm going to add it now based on http://www.image-load.eu/out.php/i13...1222011011.PNG
If someone can provide the same frame 1:1 direct digital without the ringing we'll 'renegotiate'.
post #170 of 746
Where's the DNR artifacts in Spider-man?
post #171 of 746
I didn't notice DNR artifacts in any of Spiderman movie. I thought the film grain blended well with the picture especially in SM-2. The production values become impeccably projected in SM2.

How about Pan's Labyrinth ? Looks like the New Line encode is DNR-ed to a noticeable extent in contrary to the French release.
post #172 of 746
Quote:
What software are you using? Does it feature a sharpness setting?

None of the Windows AVC decoders (or VC-1 decoders for that matter) feature a Sharpness setting. Once again, the ringing in these pictures is almost certainly not caused by edge enhancement.

Even if it was, for Benes' screen shots to have it, he would have to explicitly request that the software add it.
post #173 of 746
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Where's the DNR artifacts in Spider-man?

In the house of Osborne there are these pillars with vertical lines. Watch them in motion. There are other examples. Either that or my PS3 now uses secretly DNR since firmware 2.1.
Spiderman 2 looks quite some better than 1.
post #174 of 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

In the house of Osborne there are these pillars with vertical lines. Watch them in motion.

People think because a title is soft it is automatically NR, not always true. Motion is a sure way to see NR in action
post #175 of 746
Regarding S. On my system it remains one of the cleanest EE free titles in my collection. At most I would accept someone saying it was edgy but not to contain EE.
I am also not discounting the digital cap as I have no explanation for it other then that is not what I am seeing. No where near.
I have also submitted evidence supporting my findings.

I do not think this title should be added until we get some more reports. If only the few guys on the forum who have the means to provide digital caps are taken seriously over everyone else ( im the EE hater doctor ) then this list is meaningless and serves no purpose other then to those few who call the shots. People do not watch digital caps and I am not convinced they are 100% reliable. I also do admit to not having the knowledge to dispute them. If at this point only those votes from the digital guys will count why continue with the list.
My vote still stands this is a EE free title and I think the title should not be included until we get a more evidence. There are more people saying it is EE free then the few who are reporting it.
Also should there be a break down of EE. Should they be classified, edgy verses full blown EE etc?
post #176 of 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

People think because a title is soft it is automatically NR, not always true. Motion is a sure way to see NR in action

But even that, is not infallible because one still has to be able to differentiate it from camera motion blur, as Vincent Pereira alluded to earlier.
And if one has first hand knowledge that a particular scene(s) used a wide shutter angle (and complementary lighting on the set) it definitely is not necessarily DNR.

P.S.
I am really being sent over here to do battle on behalf of colorists all over the world.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=3038
post #177 of 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post

But even that, is not infallible because one still has to be able to differentiate it from camera motion blur, as Vincent Pereira alluded to earlier.
And if one has first hand knowledge that a particular scene(s) used a wide shutter angle (and complementary lighting on the set) it definitely is not necessarily DNR.

P.S.
I am really being sent over here to do battle on behalf of colorists all over the world.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=3038

But i thought you guys already thought Smurf-ray had one, yes?
I guess not . . . .
post #178 of 746
Why?!?!?!

Title: Pan's Labyrinth (2006)
Studio: New Line
Disc: BD (USA)
Problem: DNR and possibly EE
Time Codes: Whole Movie
Comments: US BD has DNR, French HD-DVD does not
URLs: Link, Link
post #179 of 746
Thread Starter 
The German BD of Pan looked clean to me. Very nice. I'll have to recheck to be sure.
post #180 of 746
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post

P.S.
I am really being sent over here to do battle on behalf of colorists all over the world.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=3038

If you have input from the people who worked on transfers/encodings by all means bring it on. We don't claim to be infallible. If something has a better alternative interpretation than ours we want to hear it.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: HDTV Software Media Discussion
AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › HDTV Software Media Discussion › HD Disk (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) EE and DNR list