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HD Disk (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) EE and DNR list - Page 8

post #211 of 745
1/17/08 at 5:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Resampling filter. Brickwall low pass filter.

I want to add my vote into the group who *do not* see any ringing while viewing the Simpsons BD on their setup. I just spent 10+ minutes going frame by frame. It definitely isn't there for me.
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post #212 of 745
1/18/08 at 3:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyozero3 View Post

I want to add my vote into the group who *do not* see any ringing while viewing the Simpsons BD on their setup. I just spent 10+ minutes going frame by frame. It definitely isn't there for me.

1080p set up? HDMI connection? 1:1 pixel mapping?...
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post #213 of 745
1/18/08 at 4:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyozero3 View Post

I want to add my vote into the group who *do not* see any ringing while viewing the Simpsons BD on their setup. I just spent 10+ minutes going frame by frame. It definitely isn't there for me.

1080p set up? HDMI connection? 1:1 pixel mapping?...

I saw that this has been added about the Simpsons BD in the OP. I can see the ringing very clearly on my setup as well, which is

720p DLP (Marantz VP12S2) <- DVI <- PowerDVD <- htpc with BD ROM

Seating distance is ~ 1.5 screen width, screen is 200 cm wide. Scaling is being done by the video card. Other animation movies similar to the Simpsons don´t show this kind of ringing on my fp. My money is on the software decoders introducing the ringing for an unknown reason.
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post #214 of 745
1/18/08 at 4:36am
re: people not detecting the ringing The Simpsons Movie

A lot of people couldn't see the jaggies on the horizontally filtered Warner titles as well and those are much more obvious than the ringing on The Simpsons Movie BRD. I imagine on a 720p set The Simpsons Movie looks clean.
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post #215 of 745
1/18/08 at 4:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

I'm still disturbed by the whole Simpsons Movie ringing. What kind of filter or piece of equipment could cause such ringing?

Resampling filter. Brickwall low pass filter.

Thanks mhafner, this is what I've been saying - people need to understand the difference betwen edge enhancement and filtering. It was allowed to totally ruin DVD and the same can't happen for HDM.
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post #216 of 745
1/18/08 at 5:02am
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In my system there is ringing on The Simpsons BD. Sony BDP-S1->1080i->Lumagen ProHDP->1080p->Projection Design Cineo 3+ 1080p DLP

Mark
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post #217 of 745
1/19/08 at 3:34am
Thread Starter 
Started to watch "Heroes":
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/849/heroess1.html
...However, by far the biggest irritant with these transfers is noise....

Uh, no. Not to me. The by far biggest irritant with these transfers is the thick EE they applied regularly, giving the show often a coarse video look. EE is not even mentioned in the review. Small-screen-sit-far-away-syndrome?
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post #218 of 745
1/19/08 at 3:45am
Peter Bracke likes to sit far away. How else can you explain his scores for the filtered Warner titles and Traffic? What a joke.
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post #219 of 745
1/19/08 at 4:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_U-Turn View Post

I saw that this has been added about the Simpsons BD in the OP. I can see the ringing very clearly on my setup as well, which is

720p DLP (Marantz VP12S2) <- DVI <- PowerDVD <- htpc with BD ROM

Seating distance is ~ 1.5 screen width, screen is 200 cm wide. Scaling is being done by the video card. Other animation movies similar to the Simpsons don´t show this kind of ringing on my fp. My money is on the software decoders introducing the ringing for an unknown reason.

As strange and unlikely as this may sound but can there be some thruth behind this statement. Is it possible that the Simpsons BD release uses certain AVC parameters (due to the special content - almost like cell animation) for the encode that causes ***SOME*** decoders to introduce these artifacts???

About the "software decoder" comment - All I can vouch for is that with a PS3 (->software decoder) the excessive ringing is VERY obvious and it is NOT introduced by my setup per se (ergo: not a single other title ever shows ringing caused by my setup - not even test charts). This is also with pixel-to-pixel mapping -> 1080p chain -> no scaling involved.


Is there anybody who uses hardware decoding (STB BD player) and a native 1080p display and in fact does see excessive ringing??? Which player is it?

Or asked the other way round - is there anybody with software based decoding (HTPC solution, PS3) and a 1080p display and doesn't see any ringing? Which codec exactly?

We just have to clarify this...
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post #220 of 745
1/19/08 at 4:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Peter Bracke likes to sit far away. How else can you explain his scores for the filtered Warner titles and Traffic? What a joke.

Agreed. Only thing his reviews (and that site in general) are useful for are knowing the HD version of a film exists...

However, Joshua Zyber is now reviewing for the site - and finally they have a set of eyes which can see problems.

Mark
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post #221 of 745
1/19/08 at 5:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

Is there anybody who uses hardware decoding (STB BD player) and a native 1080p display and in fact does see excessive ringing??? Which player is it?

See posting Mark_H above.
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post #222 of 745
1/19/08 at 7:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

See posting Mark_H above.

Upps. Sorry about that.

So in the end the most likely explaination is -> the excessive ringing is there and some just don't see it - for what ever reason (just like MANY many customers (and we are talking AVS members here) consider Newline's Pans Labyrinth of reference PQ without a hint of "waxy plastic faces", Traffic HD-DVD perfectly fine and Batman Begins "tack sharp"...) A digital screen cap is as much proof as there is.
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post #223 of 745
1/19/08 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

As strange and unlikely as this may sound but can there be some thruth behind this statement. Is it possible that the Simpsons BD release uses certain AVC parameters (due to the special content - almost like cell animation) for the encode that causes ***SOME*** decoders to introduce these artifacts???

About the "software decoder" comment - All I can vouch for is that with a PS3 (->software decoder) the excessive ringing is VERY obvious and it is NOT introduced by my setup per se (ergo: not a single other title ever shows ringing caused by my setup - not even test charts). This is also with pixel-to-pixel mapping -> 1080p chain -> no scaling involved.


Is there anybody who uses hardware decoding (STB BD player) and a native 1080p display and in fact does see excessive ringing??? Which player is it?

Or asked the other way round - is there anybody with software based decoding (HTPC solution, PS3) and a 1080p display and doesn't see any ringing? Which codec exactly?

We just have to clarify this...

How likely is that two separate implementations of the same codec have the same bug? I just don't think that this is software vs. hardware issue, is there a correlation between ringing and 24fps?
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post #224 of 745
1/19/08 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

Upps. Sorry about that.

So in the end the most likely explaination is -> the excessive ringing is there and some just don't see it - for what ever reason (just like MANY many customers (and we are talking AVS members here) consider Newline's Pans Labyrinth of reference PQ without a hint of "waxy plastic faces", Traffic HD-DVD perfectly fine and Batman Begins "tack sharp"...) A digital screen cap is as much proof as there is.

I think the issues with Batman Begins and Traffic are much more obvious than the problems with Pan's Labyrinth. I think viewers will become more familiar with what DNR looks like (after viewing threads like this), and subsequently be able to spot it much quicker than they are now. The same thing happened with EE on DVD's.
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post #225 of 745
1/20/08 at 1:12am
What's wrong with Batman Begins besides being soft?
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post #226 of 745
1/20/08 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

What's wrong with Batman Begins besides being soft?

That's not enough?
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post #227 of 745
1/20/08 at 10:03am
Please add The Wild Bunch (Warner).

EE throughout. A real pity, since it looks very good otherwise. A very nice restoration. (EE noted here, though it's more severe than the review lets on. No EE noted here.)

What's heartbreaking about these things on HDM is how unlikely it is that the movies are EVER going to be redone on HDM, or an even higher quality consumer product, for that matter.
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post #228 of 745
1/20/08 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

That's not enough?

Well you mentioned it with Traffic. Batman Begins isn't that bad is it?

Speaking of bad... Scary Movie captures

Holy $#*!. Worse than Tremors and the HDNet 2001 combined. I mean, what the hell is THIS?!?!
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post #229 of 745
1/20/08 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Speaking of bad... Scary Movie captures

You should see it in motion. It truly is a scary movie.
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post #230 of 745
1/20/08 at 9:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Well you mentioned it with Traffic. Batman Begins isn't that bad is it?

Hell no!
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post #231 of 745
1/21/08 at 4:58am
The worse thing with those Scary Movie captures is that I actually remember how nice and grain-free the theatrical print I saw was, 7 years ago! It looks like the HD transfer is that old as well. Bad Disney, bad.
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post #232 of 745
1/30/08 at 10:56pm
are those really BD screenshots of Scary Movie?

That is horrendous...it looks like a VHS upconvert.
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post #233 of 745
1/30/08 at 10:58pm
I would like to know if DNR has been applied on Kung Fu Hustle.
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post #234 of 745
1/31/08 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Bracke View Post

The only irritant I could find is some edge enhancement, resulting in some visible halos. Otherwise, when it comes to picture quality, 'Scary Movie' is a top-drawer catalog release.

Absolutely pitiful.
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post #235 of 745
1/31/08 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

That's not enough?

If it's what the master looked like, than it's certainly enough to keep it off the DNR list.

I really worry that an expectation that every title will "pop" will result in MORE EE in order to give that sharp popping look, even if it wasn't present n the source.

There's plenty of titles that are getting called out as having DNR here that I know didn't get DNR in post at least (I don't have any insight into the telecine workflows for most stuff).
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post #236 of 745
1/31/08 at 5:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

According to lgans316 a Japanese MPEG-2 broadcast of Batman Begins looked superior to the HDDVD. Maybe he can tell us more and perhaps provide some screencaps.

I remember viewing a 1080p trailer of Batman Begins that had more high frequency detail and grain than the HD DVD. This is not to say that the HD DVD looks bad, it's just considerably different from the trailer.
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post #237 of 745
1/31/08 at 5:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post

If it's what the master looked like, than it's certainly enough to keep it off the DNR list.

I really worry that an expectation that every title will "pop" will result in MORE EE in order to give that sharp popping look, even if it wasn't present n the source.

There's plenty of titles that are getting called out as having DNR here that I know didn't get DNR in post at least (I don't have any insight into the telecine workflows for most stuff).

Since you quoted me in your post, I will just chime in by saying I don't really have a opinion on whether 1) Batman Begins looks like the master 2) Batman Begins has had DNR applied.

All I do know is that it looks soft. Why it is soft I do not know.
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post #238 of 745
1/31/08 at 6:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmith83 View Post

I remember viewing a 1080p trailer of Batman Begins that had more high frequency detail and grain than the HD DVD. This is not to say that the HD DVD looks bad, it's just considerably different from the trailer.

Yes. I have seen the 1080p trailer many times in Sony showrooms and the HD DVD version is nowhere close it in clarity and grain. I recently sold my old DVR as I am planning to get a HD DVD / BD HDD DVR provided I get the nod from my wife.
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post #239 of 745
1/31/08 at 6:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

Yes. I have seen the 1080p trailer many times in Sony showrooms and the HD DVD version is nowhere close it in clarity and grain. I recently sold my old DVR as I am planning to get a HD DVD / BD HDD DVR provided I get the nod from my wife.

Seems just as plausible that the trailer was sharpened as the movie was softened.
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post #240 of 745
1/31/08 at 8:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post

Seems just as plausible that the trailer was sharpened as the movie was softened.

The trailer I saw was downloaded from the internet. I believe it was from Microsoft's HD trailer site. It's possible that it was sharpened, but there's no mistaking the film grain that was present.
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