The Official Salk Sound Owner's And Discussion Thread - Page 2

Jim....

When I go to salksound.com as listed in your signature, I get "No web site is configured at this address."

Using www.salksound.com, it works fine.

For everyone else, here is link to the Song series:
http://www.salksound.com/songseries.shtml

Ryan -

Thanks for the heads up. I am updating a whole bunch of pages today. That price was not for a pair. I have mde the correction.

- Jim

Hey there Jim, congrats on the excellent showing of your SongTowers at the recent GTG! I see you're expanding the line to include a center and surrounds, very cool. One question, what would be the advantage (or disadvantage) of using your HTS speakers versus the SongTowers? They seem to be at around the same pricepoint, what would make one a better choice over the other? Thanks!

It seems like the HT2's do not get discussed much, is there any particular reason?

I have had the SongTowers and Dana 930's hooked up for a few days ... and love them both. These are both high end products that make some terrific music.

Look for a pretty in depth write up in about 10 days, after I get opinions from a few more guys, but for $1500, these SongTowers are wonderful.

curtis -



The www address is the correct address. I was asked some time ago not to list a link to the web address. I guess it is a violation of AVS rules. You can, but I can't. So I complied and removed the "www" portion.

- Jim

Good question. I think the most of the owners hang out at audiocircle.
My impression is that most of Jim's customers concentrate on 2 channel and are less likely to visit AVS.

As I posted above, I have 3 for my L\\C\\R and love'em.
Top notch drivers and crossover in a MTM configuration make for a killer sound.
I am using 2 SVS CS-Ultras with the HT2s.
For side surrounds, Axiom QS8s and for rear surrounds(7.1) and multi-channel music I have Ellis 1801s.

My room does triple service as 2 channel\\multi-channel music and movies.
I can tell you that having 3 identical speakers for multi-channel reproduction is unbeatable for a seamless soundstage.

With the HT2's I can easily discern differences in the quality of and recording techniques used in movie soundtracks. Dialog is spot on and the dynamics can be shocking to the uninitiated.
Having HDM capability and what I consider to be an excellent front-end takes movies to a whole new level of immersion.

Listening to multi-channel music like Beck's Sea Change DVD-A is a revelation of clarity and musicality.

I too would like to know how the HTS compares to the Songtowers, and what reasons one should choose one over the other. If I had to GUESS, I'm thinking the HTS would be the choice if you wanted the extra "airiness" of the ribbon tweeter, and if you needed the ability to have a specific crossover for either freestanding, on-wall, or in-wall use to deal with placement issues. Of course this is all guessing until Jim chimes in...

Yeah, I'm waiting to hear from him also! The problem is when two different speakers from the same source are priced the same why would you choose one over the other? The ribbon tweeter sure sounds like a good thing, but the Soungtowers are getting all the good buzz. I would agree that the HTS would seem to be more suitable for close wall placement, while the Songtowers would be better set out from room boundaries. It would be nice to read a comparison and know for sure.

Sorry for the delayed response. Here are some thoughts...

A few years ago I came across a number of AVS threads on the topic of building projection screen walls with speakers mounted flush with the wall surface. In thinking about this, it became obvious that since most speakers being sold today include baffle step compensation and mounting such a speaker flush in a wall would significantly change the effective width of the front baffle, "boomy" bass would be the most common result. (For an explanation, please refer to "Baffle Step Compensation Explained" on our web site - http://www.salksound.com/bsc.html)

I was discussing the situation with a great speaker designer and friend, Jeff Bagby, and we outlined the basis for a speaker system design that could be mounted flush in a wall. And while we were at it, we thought why not create crossovers for wall-mounted and free-standing applications as well? At the time, I knew of no other company offering "customized" crossovers based on specific applications (now there are at least a few other companies doing so).

For maximum flexibility, this new system would also have to be sealed (not ported) since there was no guarantee that proper "breathing room" would be available in a given application for a ported design. This meant finding a driver that was optimized for a sealed enclosure.

Other criteria we decided upon included the use of a ribbon tweeter. At the time, there were not many speaker manufacturers using ribbon tweeters and based on the success of our Veracity HT1's, we thought we'd extend our use of them to this line.

The final criteria to keep the cost as low as possible was to use pre-built cabinets, produced off-shore, with custom-built cabinets as an optional upgrade.

Thus, the HTS home theater speaker system was born. It is an extremely flexible system with three speaker designs and three crossover options for each. So the resulting speakers can be tailored to almost any home theater (or music) application.

Sound-wise, the HTS speaker a very open, airy and transparent top end (just like our Veracity series speakers). In the midrange, they are not quite as detailed as speakers in our Veracity series and are a little "warmer" sounding. In many home theater applications, that can actually be a benefit. Some DVD's are mastered a little on the bright, edgy side and these speakers do a great job of smoothing out this type of source material.

While these speakers also do well reproducing music in a 2-channel or multi-channel format, they were primarily designed to be a very reasonably-priced, high-performance system for use in a traditional home theater setting.

The SongTowers, on the other hand, were originally developed with music reproduction in mind and they excel in this area. When first listening to this design, I was struck by, among other things, the clarity of the midrange. While this performance attribute really makes music come alive, it occurred to me that it would also be a great speaker for home theater applications since intelligibility would be very high. I also imagined that one of the first questions we would be asked when launching the SongTowers is "what would I use for a center channel?"

So I suggested to Dennis Murphy, the SongTower's designer, that we develop a center channel, surrounds and a subwoofer to round out the line. All of those designs are now essentially complete.

So, the questions are, how do these two systems compare and what would cause someone to choose one over the other?

As for the tweeters, there are very few dome tweeters that can compete with the Hiquphon OW2's in the SongTowers. As I recall, Oskar Wroending (OW) was the lead designer for ScanSpeak tweeters for many years and he now produces some of the finest 3/4" dome tweeters being made today. So the SongTowers have a lush, detailed and gorgeous top end.

The HTS series speakers utilize the AC G2si pure ribbon tweeter very similar to the G2 used in our Veracity series speakers. It is even more detailed and extremely transparent.

The fact that we use ribbon tweeters in our flagship speakers should be an inciation of my personal preference. But I can honestly say that I love Hiquphon tweeters and would chose them over almost any other traditional dome tweeter on the market today.

As for midrange, both the SongTowers and the HTS series speakers use paper-coned drivers. The SongTowers use 5" drivers that have greater dispersion resulting in better off-axis response and a wider and deeper sound stage. The only drawback is that a 5" driver is not normally as capable of extended bass response as a 7" driver. But in this case, the SongTower's quarter-wave transmission line-type cabinet allow bass extension beyond what these drivers would normally be capable of in a ported design.

The HTS series speakers utilize a 7" driver that was optimized for use in a sealed enclosure. As such, dispersion is not as great as in the 5" drivers in the SongTowers, but certainly on par with the best 7" drivers. Especially in a home theater setting, this is not a significant issue since listeners are seated in front of the speakers. So off-axis response really isn't a concern.

In terms of bass response, as indicated above, the SongTowers perform extremely well due to the cabinet design. The HTS series speakers also perform quite well in this regard, although being sealed, they roll off earlier than they would in a ported design. Again, this is not an issue since a subwoofer will almost always be used with these speakers.

So, which would be right in your application? Well, if you have a dedicated home theater and want speakers mounted flush in the wall or on the wall, the HTS series speakers are the most flexible in that regard. They would probably also be your choice if you love an open, airy and transparent top end.

If you are setting up a room where the main speakers can be placed even minimally into the room and/or you want a system that excels at both music reproduction and home theater sound, the SongTowers are more appropriate. They are an excellent music speaker that will also perform very well for home theater applications due to their high levels of intelligibility.

If I were setting up a system in a great room or family room, I would opt for the SongTowers regardless of whether or not it was for home theater, music or both. The WAF is quite a bit higher than is the case with the HTS series speakers. I might also note that we build the SongTower cabinets right here in Michigan for those who prefer to purchase products "made in USA".

I realize that some of you may have wanted a recommendation as to which speakers are superior. As I've often pointed out, speaker design is all about balancing trade-offs. In this case, selecting the "right" speaker system from among these two is also about balancing the trade-offs. In this case, however, you aren't really trading a whole lot either way.

I hope this helps.

- Jim

I'll let Jim do the full comparo--I've never heard the HTS, although I have worked with the woofer. I would just chime in on one issue. The ST's do very nicely close to a wall, although I was kind of surprised myself. You would think the "port" would get boomy when near to a rear boundary. But the transmission line bass output is smoother than a normal ported enclosure. I actually prefer the bass quality of the ST near a wall, and the crossover's baffle step compensation is not so aggressive as to cause mid-bass heaviness.

Jim,

First off, thanks for such a detailed explanation of your speakers. It really helps when researched ID companies.

Now here's my question. I'm very interested in the Song Towers, but my concern is that I don't always listen to well recorded music. I like a lot of rock music with heavy guitars and drums, and I'm wondering if the ST's are forgiving enough to play that style of music well?

I'm also considering the Rockets but I'm concerned that they may be a little too laid back for me.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.

wow, what a response from JSalk, very nice.

jam2001 -


The SongTowers are a bit more forgiving than, say, our Veracity series speakers. So from that standpoint, I would say rock music with heavy drums and guitars should not be a problem.

I kind of look at things the other way around, however. While the SongTowers would certainly do an adequate job on poorly recorded or mastered material, it is with great material that they really show their stuff.

I am obviously biased, but I have yet to hear other speakers anywhere near its price point that even come close to creating the SongTowers deep and wide soundstage with detail, clarity and pinpoint imaging.

There are many speakers in this price category that would do an adequate job with poorly recorded or mastered material. But few, if any, will top the SongTowers with great material. As for me, I wouldn't give up that magic just to accommodate poorly recorded material.

There is one caveat, however.

A number of years ago, an engineer from a very large speaker company told me the key to winning a "shootout" in a retail showroom environment. You simply accentuate the midbass and bass and slightly elevate the top end. People will be impressed with the midbass "slam" as well as with the top end detail.

Of course, when they get the speakers home, they will sense some boominess in the bass and listener fatigue will set in quickly due to the edgy quality of the top end.

I relay this story because some people prefer the midbass "slam" from speakers such as this. We play no such games with our speakers. The SongTowers are voiced flat. The bass is solid, articulate and quite extended for a 2-way speaker. But it does not call attention to itself. You would never say, "wow, listen to that bass." It is simply accurate. If there is a strong midbass presence in the recorded material, you will hear it. If not, there is no artificial boost to give that impression. The SongTowers are very true to the source material being supplied.

I hope this helps.

- Jim

Thank you Jim and Nuance,

The reason I asked about lesser quality recordings; I recently brought home a pair of Martin Logan's (don't remember which ones) and when I compared them to my current 10 year old Polks it was disappointing. When I put on a CD by a group called Clannad (similiar to Enya), the ML's sounded very nice. When I put on my friends George Thorogood CD, they sounded tinny and very fatiguing.

I've been a music lover since I was a boy, but I'm just now getting into higher quality equipment. Having said that, I'm also learning the audiophile terminology, so I'm not sure whether I like mid-bass "slam" or not

Thanks again to Jim for the EXTREMELY detailed response regarding the differences between the HTS and SongTower speakers. It definitely gave me the info I needed in deciding which is "right" for my application!

On another note, I definitely agree that there is definitely something special about ribbon tweeters. I recently completed an exhaustive auditioning trek including the following locally available bookshelfs:
Totem Rainmakers, Paradigm Studio 20's, Energy RC-10, KEF iQ3, Polk LSI 9's.

My auditioning material was Norah Jones, Amelie Soundtrack, Sam Roberts, Holst: THe Planets, and to test the speakers ability to play "poorly recorded" material, I brought some VERY old Metallica. All of the speakers did well, but none of them truly had my jaw on the floor (the closest were the Paradigm Studio 20's)

Then, to mix things up I also went to a pro audio store and auditioned Genelecs, Tannoy Reveal 66 (passive), and Adam A7's <-(at last - here are the Ribbons!)

To my ears, the Tannoy came really close to what the Paradigm Studio 20's did, and at a much lower price. The Genelec's had a really sublime, sweet sound, and if I were to build a 100% music 0% movies setup, this is the type of sound I'd go for.

However, the absolute stand-out were the Adam A7's and their ribbon tweeter. They had almost holographic imaging, a ridiculously deep and wide soundstage, and very good, solid mids. I finally understood what all the hype was about ribbon tweeters. In the past, Paradigm Studio 20's were my reference for good tweeters, but ribbons definitely changed all that. If anyone ever has an opportunity to isten to a good ribbon tweeter, definitely take the time to hear them - it will be unlike anything you've heard (whether that's good or bad depends on your listening tastes...)

I've wondered what exactly people mean when they say "mid-bass slam". Does it refer to an exaggerated response in the mid-bass range, around 100 Hz? Depending on the speakers, many rock recordings can sound good with added emphasis in this range.

Many speaker manufacturers deliberately build speakers that add (or exaggerate) bass response. It is a way to get more mid-bass out of a woofer, but it also comes with an unwanted cost. See the attached figure that shows four different bass roll-off curves. This was modeled using the same woofer in four different sized cabinets. The term Q refers to the slope of the roll-off curve. When Q is 1.0 or higher, there is exaggerated bass in the 100 Hz region. Note that the bass rolls-off more steeply in the 50-100 Hz range. This doesn't happen when Q is less than 1.0. The ideal Q value is about 0.7. There is no hump in the curve in the 100-200 Hz range, and the roll-off below 100 Hz is more gradual.

Some people who are used to listening to speakers deliberately designed with a bass Q of 1.0 or more, miss that sound when they first hear speakers with a lower Q. I wonder if this is the "mid-bass slam" that they talk about.

Most bass tone controls usually add or subtract in this same range. If I want more bass, I'd rather use the tone controls and add it when I choose, instead of always having it.

Captain,

I understand that you really liked the Adam A7's, but did you even like their sound with the old Metalica?

I bet the salesman at pro audio store you went to, loved that recording Probably not what most people want to hear on high end audio.

The salesman at the Pro Audio store pretty much left my wife and I alone with the speakers and the switcher the whole time (very nice no-pressure approach).

And to answer your question - no, Metallica was not the best way to showcase the Adam's. Although, they did do what they were designed to do, which is reveal flaws in the original recording so that they can be corrected in the studio. Another unfortunate effect of Metallica through the ribbons was listening fatigue. Luckily for me I plan to always keep one set of "forgiving" speakers in the house for poorly recorded material (my home office is where I tend to listen to this - such as MP3s).

Also, although I auditioned the Adam's I did not purchase them - I'm not particularly looking for active monitors (outlets are really oddly placed in my theater room).

However, I am looking for something that could be used for mid- to near-field listening. Hopefully the HTS would work for mid/near-field. Also, I'm definitely intrigued by their custom crossovers, as my front L/R are only about 1ft from the front and side walls, and the center is about 1 foot from the front wall...

Jim just posted pics of my new speakers I hope to have before next weekend.

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/i...?topic=47785.0

Hi all - After having the SongTowers in our system for 2 weeks of excellent 2 channel listening ... here are some thoughts.

1. Outstanding mid range clarity. They are on a par with the Dana 930's, and are of a "see through" quality.

2. Excellent, tuneful bass ... and very easy to integrate with a subwoofer. I wish everyone could hear the SongTowers with the Epik Valor added ... it is a pretty potent, sealed sub, and the combo is magic.

3. Mini-monitor imaging ... From the sweet spot, the speakers almost disappear.

I think these speakers are a killer deal in the $1500 market. They Paradigm Studio 100 V.4's don't even come close, in terms of midrange clarity.

They are also a bit of a different "look" than are the usual ID speakers ... My wife prefers the 850's (in fact ... Brandon, she is scowling at me ... does AJ want a deal on the Def Techs ?) ... but they are a gorgeous speaker.

Thanks very much for the update, Craig. I'm not familiar with the Dana 930, and a google search didn't find anything relevant. Do you have a link for some info on it? Thanks!

a link for Dennis

http://theaudioinsider.com/forum/vie...171f9f1abbe850

One quick question for any HT3 owners. My room is 14' x 19.5' with 9' ceilings. I can place the speakers about 20" from the side walls and 18" from the back wall. I have a 7' long by 24" high credenza in the middle where I will place the center channel. The speakers would be about 11' apart and the sweet spot is about 11' from the center channel. Would this room be too small for the HT3's and would my placement get the best out of the speakers? I use it for 80% movies and 20% music. Thanks for your thoughts, as I've heard people say the HT3's were too big for their room or were difficult to position.

I have used a pair of Adam p11a near field monitors for the past 4 years and have never tired of them. By far the most detailed monitor I've used, and I ran them next to Genelec 1031 and 1029s and Mackies. No contest. I could hear every detail of the mix with the Adam.

But NFMs are different than "listening" speakers for a room. The ribbon would seem to be a good solution though no matter what the application. Just a question of cost. That is one reason the Acculine is attractive at a lower price point. I have to admit that the Songtowers are intriguing...

Your room is not to small. My room is about the same size as yours, but I have a slight disadvantage as I have to sit along the long wall. So, I'm only sitting around 7.5' from the towers, the towers are about 7.5' apart.

I know of quite a few people who own the HT3's with less than ideal rooms, but with some experimenting, tweaking and patience, they have found audio bliss. I think there are for more imperfect rooms than perfect, but many things can be done to improve your room.

While my room is far from perfect, I have spent many hours experimenting with placement and tweaking, as well as have invested in room treatment for the corners and first reflection points, no tables between myself and the speakers, and I cover the tv with a large blanket when listening to two channel music. I did a few other small "tweaks" as well.

I have my HT3's a tad over 24" from the back wall, and about the same from the side wall.

If you do have bass issues, you may want to give Glenn a call at GIKACOUSTICS.com and buy a pair of tri traps. They are made specifically for corners and he now offers many, many fabrics to choose from to help match your decor. If that doesn't work for you, a couple larger house plants in the corners will work wonders as well.

When listening to well recorded music, I now get jaw dropping, goose-bump inducing, foot tapping reproduction of the music, all while smiling and shaking my head in disbelief and saying "Wow".

I no longer hear speakers, amps or pre amp, I simply hear the music.

Not to long ago, I thought I understood what that meant and was wrong.

Now I'm sure.

Enjoy your HT3's!

Mark

Mine is 13.5 x 16 x 8 and the HT3's are fine in there. Very fine in fact.