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The Official Salk Sound Owner's And Discussion Thread - Page 163

post #4861 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

imo and ime (short as it may be), no...

although i'm using my old sierra's for surrounds and not song surrounds...

the ht2-tl's reach low and do it well... but they aren't a replacement for a sub for ht...

That's what I was thinking, ccotenj what size is you room? I look at your pics looks pretty big with high ceilings.
post #4862 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by cacophony777 View Post

I'd like to know more about this. Are certain reflections considered desirable?

some reflection is necessary, otherwise the sound will be "dead" (i.e. have no "ambiance", etc., insert whatever word you want here)... "how much" reflection is a matter of much debate, and likely comes down to personal preference and how much you are willing to experiment...

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsart View Post

That's what I was thinking, ccotenj what size is you room? I look at your pics looks pretty big with high ceilings.

ceilings are 9 feet.... it's 13.5 feet wide... two thirds of it is 15.5 feet deep, the other third is 17 feet deep...
post #4863 of 8677
[quote=woodsart;19020067]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post


Hey Saturn94...

Do you think with plan "B" and the ST surrounds he would have sufficient bass for theater w/o a sub? I do not remember Redfive mentioning having one.

Thanks

If he doesn't have a sub, then I would most definately get the HT2-TL over the SongTower. The HT2-TL is much more capable in the lower frequencies. That said, I would still want a good sub as well for HT since the bass demands of many movies is much greater than most music.

If he does have a good sub to handle all bass duties for music and HT and is happy with its performance, then the choice may be less clear. However, given that he said "The HT2-TL's fit better with my longterm sound goals" and my opinion of buying the best speakers you can since they have the most impact on sound quality, I would still vote for plan "B".
post #4864 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

imo and ime (short as it may be), no...

although i'm using my old sierra's for surrounds and not song surrounds...

the ht2-tl's reach low and do it well... but they aren't a replacement for a sub for ht...

To clarify, I meant for music I don't think a sub is needed. For HT, yes, there would be a sub needed.
post #4865 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by cacophony777 View Post


I'd like to know more about this. Are certain reflections considered desirable?

I'm not an expert on reflections or acoustic treatments. At all. He had acoustic treatments everywhere, but it seemed to affect the liveliness of the speakers on certain recordings. I'm sure there are more here that could comment ... I could be full of bunk, but that's how it seemed.
post #4866 of 8677
I have an epik empire
post #4867 of 8677
[quote=Saturn94;19020205]
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsart View Post


If he doesn't have a sub, then I would most definately get the HT2-TL over the SongTower. The HT2-TL is much more capable in the lower frequencies. That said, I would still want a good sub as well for HT since the bass demands of many movies is much greater than most music.

If he does have a good sub to handle all bass duties for music and HT and is happy with its performance, then the choice may be less clear. However, given that he said "The HT2-TL's fit better with my longterm sound goals" and my opinion of buying the best speakers you can since they have the most impact on sound quality, I would still vote for plan "B".

My budget is like Redfive, but I wanted surround for theater as well. So plan "B" would be the limit without a sub and surround I's. I tend to agree with you, but for theater in my case is a tough decision. I thought I had made up my mind and with Jim's suggestion the ST's would be sufficient for the room layout, but I just can't jump the gun as of yet.


ccotenj.....I see now that you do have a sub. Didn't see one before. Thanks for the info!!

Maybe someone could chime in and share their experiences with the HT2-TLs and center without a sub in terms of theater. Maybe I could live without one for a long while.

Thanks!
post #4868 of 8677
Virtually all speakers require a subwoofer for HT for realistic playback.
For one, there's a separate LFE channel.
Even with the TL design, the Seas drivers are not capable of nor designed to go that low and loud.
post #4869 of 8677
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

"B"... and there's absolutely ZERO doubt in my mind on that...

+1. If you can swing the HT2-TL's, go for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cacophony777 View Post

I'd like to know more about this. Are certain reflections considered desirable?

Yes sir, they are. Floyd Toole and Sean Olive have conducted numerous studies on this exact subject, and their listening session results have shown that if the loudspeaker has good off-axis performance the lateral reflections actually give the perception of a larger sound stage and more enveloping sound. The reflections that come later in the time domain are the ones to worry about, such as the front and back walls and the ceiling and floor. Every room is different, so you cannot take this as gold. Also, each person's listening preferences will dictate where they want room treatments, and that's what is most important IMO. Just remember, an overly treated room will sound too dead to most people, and likewise, an untreated room might sound too live to many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redfive View Post

To clarify, I meant for music I don't think a sub is needed. For HT, yes, there would be a sub needed.

I agree. However, I'd still use a subwoofer for music if I had room modes being excited. When this happens, peaks and nulls in the frequency response can occur, which can drastically change the sound for the worse. Being able to cross over to a subwoofer and apply parametric EQ below that point can turn poor bass response into something phenominal. The problem is, this isn't practical for many people, and hardly any 2-channel preamps have subwoofer outputs.

Another positive of using a subwoofer is that the best placement in a person's room for great imaging and soundstage width/depth will likely not be the best spot for bass response (hence the difficulty of achieving great bass with just two speakers). A subwoofer can be placed where it outputs the best, without overhang, and also where it has the flattest frequency response. With speakers alone you'll likely not be able to achieve the best of both worlds.

In the end, each person needs to do what they need to do, as only they need to be satisfied (and maybe their spouses ).

To summarize, HT2-TL's good, subwoofer good (necessary for HT), and the combination of both for movies and music = great. YMMV
post #4870 of 8677
I had the opportunity to listen to both the ST (dome tweeter) and HT2-TL this weekend, and are struggling at which pair to buy (redfive, I’m on the same boat with you ). Below are some of my takes on the speakers. I’m not an audio expert, so I do not have all the fancy words to express my feelings. I will just try to articulate how I feel as straightforward as I can. What I stated below is just my personal opinions, and they might be quite different from other’s experience given the subjective nature of audio audition. Please feel free to disagree if you feel otherwise.

I called Jim last Tues. and expressed my interests in auditioning the STs. Jim quickly hooked me up with a local Salk owner (Bigload on Audio Circle). I feel really fortunate to have a Salk owner living close by, and greatly appreciate the generosity and hospitality of Bigload and his wife for allowing us (me and my wife) in their beautiful house for a serious listening of his gears.

Bigload has a pair of STs in his living room for pure stereo audio, and a whole set of Veracity (HT2-TL fronts, HT1-TL surrounds, HT2C center) in his “mancave”. All are driven by AVA pre-amps and amps (“the marriage in audio heaven” ). His setup can be found here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82850.0

Auditioning of the Song Towers

We started our listening session downstairs in the living room with the STs, which are finished in dark curly cherry. The speakers look extremely elegant and are visually satisfying. They blend in very well with the surrounding furniture. I have been looking forward to the auditioning ever since I discovered the Salk speakers, and couldn’t wait to hear the magic sound coming out of the speakers in person. When the music starts, I was immediately enveloped in the beautiful music notes. I was surprised at how upfront the sound stage is. It feels like that I am on stage with the musicians. Sometimes it feels like there are surround and rear speakers. Pretty soon I found out that not all the music pieces have such an upfront image. Some other pieces create a feeling of “depth”, e.g., the instruments and the singer are positioned behind the speakers. I think the best word to describe the sound stage is “3D”, and the actual sound stage rendering depends on the source materials. At the mean time, I find that the width of the sound stage is just a little bit over the area defined by the two speakers. But again, it might depend on the source materials. A side note is the living room has a vaulted high ceiling without acoustic treatment. I’m not sure how this will affect the listening experience.

The middles and highs are every bit as good as I expected from reading the reviews here. One music piece that left me a deep impression is a guitar solo (I think it’s from the Salk demo disc, but I might be wrong). The artist is right in front of me and I can “see” the kiss between the guitar strings and guitar pick. I feel that the sound is extremely transparent, and I don’t know how much more transparent it can be, even though I read a lot of reviews stating that the ribbon tweeters are more transparent than the dome tweeter. We listened to a large variety of music, including classic, rock, pop, jazz, electrical, etc. There are female vocal, male vocal, and pure instruments. Most of the music are from Bigload’s personal CD collection. I also brought some lossless pieces with my iPod. The STs handled all genres with ease and eloquence. There is a Chinese violin piece I brought with me: the butterfly lovers, which has a pretty demanding middle-high end. It sounds pretty harsh on my current speakers, but warm and clean on the STs. I feel that the strongest aspects of the STs are the middle to the middle-high range, and the string instruments sound extremely well.

The bass goes pretty deep even though the size of the woofer is just 5’’. We listened to some pieces with strong bass presence, and for most part the bass is accurately reproduced and well integrated. The drum feels punchy and prompt; the bass in the string instruments feels “clean” (I know clean is usually used to describe highs, but I couldn’t find a better word to describe the smooth transition from the middle to the low in the string instruments). At the mean time, I have to admit that the ST is not perfect in the bass department. When I listened to the prelude of Eagle’s live performance on “Hotel California”, I feel that the bass can benefit from reaching a bit lower. Of course it is clearly stated in the spec that the 3dB point of the speakers is 42Hz, so a subwoofer is more appropriate to finish the job below the 42 Hz. I would say that the STs can meet 90% of the bass needs. For the remaining 10%, the STs might not be able to go deep enough to throw the bass right into your body. An analogy is when you stand right next to a huge diameter drum, you can feel that the drum beats are all over you and are affecting your heart beats. The STs might not have the “heart beat affection” capability, but I also doubt if there are any speaker in this price range can achieve such a feat. This of course can be easily compensated with a subwoofer.

Overall, both my wife and I are very happy with the STs. I almost made up my mind on the STs right there on the spot, until we go upstairs to listen to the HT2-TLs … (To be continued)

Part 2: Auditioning on the HT2-TLs can be found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19026928
post #4871 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsart View Post


My budget is like Redfive, but I wanted surround for theater as well. So plan "B" would be the limit without a sub and surround I's. I tend to agree with you, but for theater in my case is a tough decision. I thought I had made up my mind and with Jim's suggestion the ST's would be sufficient for the room layout, but I just can't jump the gun as of yet.


ccotenj.....I see now that you do have a sub. Didn't see one before. Thanks for the info!!

Maybe someone could chime in and share their experiences with the HT2-TLs and center without a sub in terms of theater. Maybe I could live without one for a long while.

Thanks!

I'm guessing that like mine your system must pull double duty for music and HT? If that's the case, and if your budget needs to include a sub, I wouldn't have any hesitation recommending a SongTower HT/Music system with a quality sub. Unless you are comparing them directly side by side, I don't think you will miss much by not getting the HT2-TLs. I was quite surprised how similar the SongTowers and HT2-TLs sounded when I compared them side by side (you can certainly see/hear that they are from the same family). I would imagine that if you opted for the RAAL tweeter in the SongTowers, they would sound even more alike (I hope to make another trip to Dennis's to hear the SongTower with the RAAL tweeter to hear for myself).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jw87c View Post

I had the opportunity to listen to both the ST (dome tweeter) and HT2-TL this weekend, and are struggling at which pair to buy (redfive, I’m on the same boat with you ). Below are some of my takes on the speakers. I’m not an audio expert, so I do not have all the fancy words to express my feelings. I will just try to articulate how I feel as straightforward as I can. What I stated below is just my personal opinions, and they might be quite different from other’s experience given the subjective nature of audio audition. Please feel free to disagree if you feel otherwise.

I called Jim last Tues. and expressed my interests in auditioning the STs. Jim quickly hooked me up with a local Salk owner (Bigload on Audio Circle). I feel really fortunate to have a Salk owner living close by, and greatly appreciate the generosity and hospitality of Bigload and his wife for allowing us (me and my wife) in their beautiful house for a serious listening of his gears.

Bigload has a pair of STs in his living room for pure stereo audio, and a whole set of Veracity (HT2-TL fronts, HT1-TL surrounds, HT2C center) in his “mancave”. All are driven by AVA pre-amps and amps (“the marriage in audio heaven” ). His setup can be found here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82850.0

Auditioning of the Song Towers

We started our listening session downstairs in the living room with the STs, which are finished in dark curly cherry. The speakers look extremely elegant and are visually satisfying. They blend in very well with the surrounding furniture. I have been looking forward to the auditioning ever since I discovered the Salk speakers, and couldn’t wait to hear the magic sound coming out of the speakers in person. When the music starts, I was immediately enveloped in the beautiful music notes. I was surprised at how upfront the sound stage is. It feels like that I am on stage with the musicians. Sometimes it feels like there are surround and rear speakers. Pretty soon I found out that not all the music pieces have such an upfront image. Some other pieces create a feeling of “depth”, e.g., the instruments and the singer are positioned behind the speakers. I think the best word to describe the sound stage is “3D”, and the actual sound stage rendering depends on the source materials. At the mean time, I find that the width of the sound stage is just a little bit over the area defined by the two speakers. But again, it might depend on the source materials. A side note is the living room has a vaulted high ceiling without acoustic treatment. I’m not sure how this will affect the listening experience.

The middles and highs are every bit as good as I expected from reading the reviews here. One music piece that left me a deep impression is a guitar solo (I think it’s from the Salk demo disc, but I might be wrong). The artist is right in front of me and I can “see” the kiss between the guitar strings and guitar pick. I feel that the sound is extremely transparent, and I don’t know how much more transparent it can be, even though I read a lot of reviews stating that the ribbon tweeters are more transparent than the dome tweeter. We listened to a large variety of music, including classic, rock, pop, jazz, electrical, etc. There are female vocal, male vocal, and pure instruments. Most of the music are from Bigload’s personal CD collection. I also brought some lossless pieces with my iPod. The STs handled all genres with ease and eloquence. There is a Chinese violin piece I brought with me: the butterfly lovers, which has a pretty demanding middle-high end. It sounds pretty harsh on my current speakers, but warm and clean on the STs. I feel that the strongest aspects of the STs are the middle to the middle-high range, and the string instruments sound extremely well.

The bass goes pretty deep even though the size of the woofer is just 5’’. We listened to some pieces with strong bass presence, and for most part the bass is accurately reproduced and well integrated. The drum feels punchy and prompt; the bass in the string instruments feels “clean” (I know clean is usually used to describe highs, but I couldn’t find a better word to describe the smooth transition from the middle to the low in the string instruments). At the mean time, I have to admit that the ST is not perfect in the bass department. When I listened to the prelude of Eagle’s live performance on “Hotel California”, I feel that the bass can benefit from reaching a bit lower. Of course it is clearly stated in the spec that the 3dB point of the speakers is 42Hz, so a subwoofer is more appropriate to finish the job below the 42 Hz. I would say that the STs can meet 90% of the bass needs. For the remaining 10%, the STs might not be able to go deep enough to throw the bass right into your body. An analogy is when you stand right next to a huge diameter drum, you can feel that the drum beats are all over you and are affecting your heart beats. The STs might not have the “heart beat affection” capability, but I also doubt if there are any speaker in this price range can achieve such a feat. This of course can be easily compensated with a subwoofer.

Overall, both my wife and I are very happy with the STs. I almost made up my mind on the STs right there on the spot, until we go upstairs to listen to the HT2-TLs … (to be continued)

To be continued??? Don't keep us waiting too long!
post #4872 of 8677
[quote=Saturn94;19021793]I'm guessing that like mine your system must pull double duty for music and HT? If that's the case, and if your budget needs to include a sub, I wouldn't have any hesitation recommending a SongTower HT/Music system with a quality sub. Unless you are comparing them directly side by side, I don't think you will miss much by not getting the HT2-TLs. I was quite surprised how similar the SongTowers and HT2-TLs sounded when I compared them side by side (you can certainly see/hear that they are from the same family). I would imagine that if you opted for the RAAL tweeter in the SongTowers, they would sound even more alike (I hope to make another trip to Dennis's to hear the SongTower with the RAAL tweeter to hear for myself).

Hey Saturn94,

Yeah, music and more HT and would definitely need a sub. I have been looking at a Rythmik 15" servo sub, I think. Would need one whether I get the HT2-TL or STs set-up. I am pretty sure at this point it will the RAAL with either group for just the fronts.

Thank you for your imput....I look forward to your trip so that I can get your feeling on the RAAL with the STs.
post #4873 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

However, given that he said "The HT2-TL's fit better with my longterm sound goals" and my opinion of buying the best speakers you can since they have the most impact on sound quality, I would still vote for plan "B".

that part there is what made me say "zero" doubt instead of "very little doubt"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsart View Post


ccotenj.....I see now that you do have a sub. Didn't see one before. Thanks for the info!!

Maybe someone could chime in and share their experiences with the HT2-TLs and center without a sub in terms of theater. Maybe I could live without one for a long while.

Thanks!

yup, the stealth bomber is hiding behind the couch... no one knows it's there until it announces it's presence...

iirc, over at audiocircle, tjhub has a pair of ht2-tl's and just recently got a sub to go with them... i'm not sure if he used them for ht before he got the sub, but he might have some input for you on that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

+1. If you can swing the HT2-TL's, go for it.

yup. not unique to salks either. imo, 6k of new speakers is virtually always "better than" 3k of new speakers from the same manufacturer/3k of new electronics...

speakers first... especially in this case, where it's likely to be the "last speaker upgrade" and pretty much sets you for a very long time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

To summarize, HT2-TL's good, subwoofer good (necessary for HT), and the combination of both for movies and music = great. YMMV

+1 zillion... i also agree with the rest of your post regarding bass management...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

To be continued??? Don't keep us waiting too long!

yea i know! c'mon man, where's the next part!
post #4874 of 8677
[quote=woodsart;19020067]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post


Hey Saturn94...

Do you think with plan "B" and the ST surrounds he would have sufficient bass for theater w/o a sub? I do not remember Redfive mentioning having one.

Thanks

He has a single Epik Empire right now.
post #4875 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

some reflection is necessary, otherwise the sound will be "dead" (i.e. have no "ambiance", etc., insert whatever word you want here)... "how much" reflection is a matter of much debate, and likely comes down to personal preference and how much you are willing to experiment...



ceilings are 9 feet.... it's 13.5 feet wide... two thirds of it is 15.5 feet deep, the other third is 17 feet deep...

I completely agree with this. Mark's room really made me want more reflection and ambiance. I sort of felt like I was in a coffin I'm sure that some strive for this, but as I mentioned to Matt (redfive), whenever they test speakers for measurements, many times it's done in an anechoic chamber, but no one would want this as their every day listening room because it won't sound good! Rooms need a fine balance between sound absorption and reflection and Mark (jazzcat) had just a bit too much treatment for my tastes.

That being said, having had the STs for 2 years now the HT2-TL's did not want to make me upgrade. First, I don't have the budget. Second, I'd need to hear them in a different room to see if they came alive a bit. The one area where they blow away the STs is the bass response. With 2-channel music (pipe organ excluded) I would NEVER use a subwoofer with these speakers, plain and simple. They dig THAT deep and I was simply amazed at what I was hearing. Frequently I just laughed out loud at how incredible it was.

The top end of the HT2-TL's was sublime and extremely smooth. Never fatiguing at all. Occasionally I felt there was a disconnect between the midrange and the bass because the bass was so pronounced, but this wasn't necessarily a bad thing. Just something I noted. The HT2-TL's are an amazing speaker. If I had the budget and had it to do all over again, I would have a very difficult choice in front of me. For home theater I would probably pick the STs and for 2-channel it would be the HT2-TL's. Realistically for me they are both excellent speakers and had a great time listening on Saturday!

Cheers,
Chad
post #4876 of 8677
I am currently listening to Jim's demo CD. Excellent selection of tracks showcasing the ability of my STs. I will be buying the Jennifer Warnes, Ray Charles and Nils Lofgren (big fan) CDs. Is there a more up to date track list available as my disc seems different than the most recent updated track list.

Bill
post #4877 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post


I completely agree with this. Mark's room really made me want more reflection and ambiance. I sort of felt like I was in a coffin I'm sure that some strive for this, but as I mentioned to Matt (redfive), whenever they test speakers for measurements, many times it's done in an anechoic chamber, but no one would want this as their every day listening room because it won't sound good! Rooms need a fine balance between sound absorption and reflection and Mark (jazzcat) had just a bit too much treatment for my tastes.

That being said, having had the STs for 2 years now the HT2-TL's did not want to make me upgrade. First, I don't have the budget. Second, I'd need to hear them in a different room to see if they came alive a bit. The one area where they blow away the STs is the bass response. With 2-channel music (pipe organ excluded) I would NEVER use a subwoofer with these speakers, plain and simple. They dig THAT deep and I was simply amazed at what I was hearing. Frequently I just laughed out loud at how incredible it was.

The top end of the HT2-TL's was sublime and extremely smooth. Never fatiguing at all. Occasionally I felt there was a disconnect between the midrange and the bass because the bass was so pronounced, but this wasn't necessarily a bad thing. Just something I noted. The HT2-TL's are an amazing speaker. If I had the budget and had it to do all over again, I would have a very difficult choice in front of me. For home theater I would probably pick the STs and for 2-channel it would be the HT2-TL's. Realistically for me they are both excellent speakers and had a great time listening on Saturday!

Cheers,
Chad

Chad,

Thanks for letting me take up a bit of your Saturday! Hope the room got painted!

After I got home I repositioned my speakers, Got the sub moved into the corner, and made some receiver tweaks. I think it cleared up some of my initial issues I had actually. After looking at my room I may not have enough space for HT2-TL's if they need a lot of room behind them and the wall. Does anyone know the recommended distance?

Not to side track, but what was the model of your feedback destroyer the DSP1124P? I'm gonna pick one up, and still want to take you up on your offer to help set it up!

That beer was amazing
post #4878 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfive View Post

Chad,

Thanks for letting me take up a bit of your Saturday! Hope the room got painted!

After I got home I repositioned my speakers, Got the sub moved into the corner, and made some receiver tweaks. I think it cleared up some of my initial issues I had actually. After looking at my room I may not have enough space for HT2-TL's if they need a lot of room behind them and the wall. Does anyone know the recommended distance?


The TL loading isn't as sensitive to close boundary proximity as a traditional ported enclosure. If you can get them out by at least a foot, you should be OK.
post #4879 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post


The TL loading isn't as sensitive to close boundary proximity as a traditional ported enclosure. If you can get them out by at least a foot, you should be OK.

Dennis,

Could you comment on the 3/4" thick option that Jim has for the HT2-TL? Is there any sonic difference?
post #4880 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfive View Post

Dennis,

Could you comment on the 3/4" thick option that Jim has for the HT2-TL? Is there any sonic difference?

Hi I only have the 3/4" version, so I don't bring much to the table. All I can say is that the 3/4" cabinet is pretty rigid to start with.
post #4881 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I am currently listening to Jim's demo CD. Excellent selection of tracks showcasing the ability of my STs. I will be buying the Jennifer Warnes, Ray Charles and Nils Lofgren (big fan) CDs. Is there a more up to date track list available as my disc seems different than the most recent updated track list.

Bill

Bill,

I have both the Nils Lofgren & Ray charles CD's for sale if you are interested

Hope all is well!

Brandon
post #4882 of 8677
Hi,

Its me again. I dont frequent this site as much as AC. But I have been reading the posts about the California show and the high end stuff etc.

Perception is a powerful thing and in marketing to sell you have to understand what it takes and make desicions etc.

With many, many years of playing with this stuff. it was REALLY a nice treat to discover this Jim Salk fellow. I was so sick and tired of all the snobbery, and if you didnt have the megabuck cables, or the megabuck amps you just didnt have what it takes to reproduce good audio.

I have always been a purist, the least amount of crap in the line of reproduction the better...I guess this is why I like Frank's AVA stuff a lot. Most of his stuff aint 'pretty' but it certaintly plays real nice! His new Ultravalve is certaintly pretty to me!.

The recent puchase of an Ultravalve Amp from Frank coupled with my dome SongTowers!!! WOW...its really that 'Marraige Made in Heaven.

Imagine meeting guys like Jim and Frank, and being able to actually talk to them, share the experience etc...things that are still made in the USA, built by Americans...sounds too good to be true, pardon the pun!

Its ok with me if Jim decides to go to shows with some high end gear and cables...I just hope Jim stays true to his base, and keeps making wonderful transducers, I am sure he will!! (wink, wink)...and Frank well..just be Frank!!

All the Best
Alex
post #4883 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymaid520 View Post

Bill,

I have both the Nils Lofgren & Ray charles CD's for sale if you are interested

Hope all is well!

Brandon

Brandon,

I will take them. Just shoot me a PM with all the essentials. Everything is great and I hope all is well in WI.

Thanks, Bill
post #4884 of 8677
Yes! Make a trip so we can get your impressions!
post #4885 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfive View Post

Dennis,

Could you comment on the 3/4" thick option that Jim has for the HT2-TL? Is there any sonic difference?

the grunts (and other associated noises) you make when unpack the 1" thick ones are likely louder than when you unpack the 3/4" ones...
post #4886 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

I completely agree with this. Mark's room really made me want more reflection and ambiance. I sort of felt like I was in a coffin I'm sure that some strive for this, but as I mentioned to Matt (redfive), whenever they test speakers for measurements, many times it's done in an anechoic chamber, but no one would want this as their every day listening room because it won't sound good! Rooms need a fine balance between sound absorption and reflection and Mark (jazzcat) had just a bit too much treatment for my tastes.

yup... i started with (and had for a very long time) a pretty live room... to be honest, the great majority do... which is probably part of the "issue" that you had with mark's room... there was likely a stark difference between it and "what you are used to"...

we experimented a great deal before we got it the way "we like it" in our room... my "guess" is that some might find it a bit "dead", but it's not "real dead" by any stretch of the imagination...

everyone will like it differently... i like to sit in the very first row of the orchestra, for example (if they let me, i'd sit onstage )... others prefer to sit further back... others prefer the balcony... none of the three of us are "wrong" in any way... we just like to hear sound "differently" than the others...

and there's still a few other things i'll get around to trying one of these days...
post #4887 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by jw87c View Post

I had the opportunity to listen to both the ST (dome tweeter) and HT2-TL this weekend, and are struggling at which pair to buy (redfive, I'm on the same boat with you ).
......
Overall, both my wife and I are very happy with the STs. I almost made up my mind on the STs right there on the spot, until we go upstairs to listen to the HT2-TLs (to be continued)

Finally find some time to write down my feelings about the HT2-TLs.

Auditioning of the HT2-TLs

The HT2-TLs are the center pieces of a complete 7.1 setup with HT2C center, HT1-TL surrounds, Polk rear surrounds, and a SVS PB13 Ultra subwoofer. My first impression is that the HT2-TLs look much bigger than the STs, and they stand grandly on both sides of a huge plasma TV. Bigload has done a fantastic job in building his mancave. The room is thoroughly treated with acoustic panels hanging on the walls and vaulted ceilings. All the speakers are in a uniform black color and they match the colors of the equipment and racks. A really fancy feature of the room is the colored backlight behind the plasma TV. When the light dims and the movie starts, the red or blue back lights projected on the wall behind the TV adds a nice touch and coolness of the room.

We started our audition with two movie clips from Lord of the Rings and the Dark Knight. Both clips involve intensive fight/chasing scenes with highly dynamic sound levels and awesome surround sound effects. The speakers handled the job effortlessly and create an extremely engaging 3D sound stage. All the details in the entire sound spectrum are clearly revealed. The bass were so powerful that I felt the chair was shaking. For a minute I even thought there was a butt kicker installed underneath my seat. Bigload told me after I left he found that part of the bass management was messed up so the system was not at its full capacity. I just couldn't imagine how the system will sound at its full capacity, and Bigload described it as breathless. Since I didn't audition the STs with movies, so other than the fact that HT2-TLs are also fantastic speakers, I had no idea how they would compare with the STs.

What distinguished the HT2-TLs from the STs was the two channel music. We switched the receiver to direct mode and started to play the music clips that we just listened on the STs. Immediately I found that the sound coming out of the HT2-TLs are more full compared to the STs, and the instruments and vocals are better materialized. Later all of us agreed that the STs are not in the same level as the HT2-TLs (they better be, given twice the price tag ). At the low end, I just can't believe the subwoofer has been turned off. At the high end, now I understand what is more transparent. The lows and highs are connected meticulously with the middle range. I was just completely lost in the music. On our way back, my wife told me that she almost cried (in joy) during one of the pieces. Granted she is a quite emotional person, but she is usually not crazy about speakers. I guess now she understands my craziness in this hobby . If I haven't listened to the HT2-TLs, I would be extremely happy with the STs. However, after listening to the HT2-TLs, I just couldn't get it out of my mind. Bigload told me that he tried to listen to music with the subwoofer on, and found that leaving the subwoofer off actually renders a better result.

At the mean time, please note that the room in which the HT2-TLs are auditioned has full acoustic treatment, yet the ST audition was in a vaulted high ceiling living room without any sound treatment. In addition, the STs are the dome tweeter version, while the ribbon tweeter is used in the HT2-TLs. I have read some comments stating that the only difference between the STs and HT2-TLs are the bass. I guess those statements were referring to the ribbon version of the STs. I agree that the biggest improvement of HT2-TL over the STs is in bass. However, I did notice a big improvement in the middle range and high range as well. Since my auditioning condition was not side by side, and the auditions were performed in completely different listening environments, I think we also need to take into consideration of these factors.

Overall, I think the STs are great speakers, but I like the HT2-TLs better. Now the question is: does the improvement worth twice the price? My original budget was $2K for fronts, and I stretched it to $2.6K for the ST RT, and I'm struggling with myself now whether I should stretch it further to the HT2-TL. Hopefully I can make up my mind soon
post #4888 of 8677
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

yup... i started with (and had for a very long time) a pretty live room... to be honest, the great majority do... which is probably part of the "issue" that you had with mark's room... there was likely a stark difference between it and "what you are used to"...

we experimented a great deal before we got it the way "we like it" in our room... my "guess" is that some might find it a bit "dead", but it's not "real dead" by any stretch of the imagination...

everyone will like it differently... i like to sit in the very first row of the orchestra, for example (if they let me, i'd sit onstage )... others prefer to sit further back... others prefer the balcony... none of the three of us are "wrong" in any way... we just like to hear sound "differently" than the others...

and there's still a few other things i'll get around to trying one of these days...

I've been in plenty of treated rooms before, and have always liked them. In fact I used to work at a high end audio store with several treated rooms. The owner of the room even commented that he wondered if his room was too dead himself. So I can assure you it was not ALL a matter of "what I am used to ". Perspective is a powerful thing, and I have seen and experienced a lot.

I think I speak for the majority of music lovers and high end audiophiles, that the main thing we are trying to reproduce is the live setting. What would it sound like if the performers were sitting in front of me right now? What would it sound like if I could have them "right there" (pointing right in front of me)? I have seen MANY live performances and have never heard one sound like the room I was in last Saturday

I'm not saying I didn't appreciate what he was trying to do, just think it was slightly over the top for my personal tastes, and probably for most others as well.

Cheers!
Chad
post #4889 of 8677
^^^

guess I should have written that part better... I in no way meant to impugn your experience or taste...,

sorry that came across wrong...

as noted by my sitting at the orchestra example, we all have different tastes, and none of us are wrong...
post #4890 of 8677
Jeez, Louise, Chris. You live in Joisey. Impugning is a way of life. Keep acting all deferential like and folks will think you come from Vermont or something. BTW, any more dead people show up in your room?
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