The Official Salk Sound Owner's And Discussion Thread - Page 226

Understood. The HT2-TL (or preferably the SS8 if in the budget) would fit the bill. Given that your speakers are fairly close to the wall behind them (I believe you mentioned 18"), I hesitate to recommend the HT3. I also am restricted in how far out I can place speakers so Jim advised one of the TL designs or SS (with side firing passives) since they are less sensitive to placement in terms of bass performance. He said the HT3 would likely be too boomy in my room/setup.


Yes.

The smaller SEAS would have wider disbursion, especially in the upper part of its range, which may give it an advantage in terms of disappearing in the soundstage. Also, you save $1k.



Based on what I've heard (SS10), the SS line is awesome! Only you can decide if it's worth the cost difference (not an insignificant amount).

Personally I look at it this way. As long as I can afford it, I'd rather pay more to get the best I can. It may be painful to part with all that money at first, but down the road I will have forgotten all about the money and will be enjoying great sound.

When I was shopping for a TV back in 2008, I had a hard time justifying the cost of the TV I really wanted (Pioneer Elite Kuro). In my mind, the Panasonics were a much better value. But then I thought, in a year do I want to watch a movie thinking "what a fantastic picture" or "what a fantastic value"? I chose the former and have been in Kuro heaven ever since with absolutely no regrets!


For me, the deciding factor would be if I wanted/needed the HT2-TLs bass output abilities. If not, the SCST, if so, the HT2-TL. BTW, relieved of bass duties, I think both would have plenty of dynamic range.



Speaking of grills, I had Jim also install magnets under the veneer on the back of my HT2-TLs. That way if I want to listen sans grills, I just pop them on the back........keeps them securely and safely out of the way.

If you decide to get one of the models with an offset tweeter, next you can obsess over whether to place them with tweeters to the outside or inside (mine are to the outside).

Of course I just tease........it took me a year to decide on speakers and many months after delivery to set them up to my satisfaction.

Decisions, decisions.......

Well they really are "having your cake and eating it too".... if you can bust out for them, the other options just look weak in comparision.


I definitely feel there's serious advantages to active crossovers from a design perspective. I just don't think they apply universally.

P.s.I've got nothing against Rod Elliott and I've learned some things myself from his nice little website, but at heart you can tell he's an electronics guy. Electronics guys seem to have strong opinions about what the electronics are doing, and even support it by theory. But sometimes practice/audibility don't translate from theory,

As far as that article, I just skimmed over it for ya. It did make some valid points but

1) Didn't reference any papers showing audibility of these "on paper" issues.
2) Didn't factor in that a ribbon tweeter, for example, doesn't have the same kind of resonance discussed there.

These here are the answer you're looking for. They have DEQX like the NHT Xd system does. Does anyone here have them, or at least has heard them?

Well, I need to buy you a beer! I listened a bit with them about 24 inches out. I noticed some difference so went ahead and moved the rug back so I could bring them out even further. At 29 inches out, there is clearly an improvement in imaging and sound is cleaner.


I tried listening in direct mode, but for some reason I couldn't get the subs to play. There is a setting to turn subs on or off in direct mode, so I'm not sure what's going on. Makes apples to apples comparison difficult. I'll look into it further.

The same thing can be done with the HT2-TL. You could use the same dex processor with that outboard option. It is more than a xover though. Has EQ and costs about $2K for the dex unit alone. I was thinking more about an active crossover only. That is, until the majority here says to fuggit about it.

I could do it money wise if I chose. I'm just not sure I want to go that mammoth.


Very cool! I may follow you on that idea.


No question I would!


I'm still tweaking mine. It never stops! (nor should it)

Congratulations! Post pics when you get them. Oh, wait, you listed finishes. Still deciding!?

I had a few models of speakers in the 70's - AR 2a and some lesser ones. Then I bought a pair of used Advents (the originals - with vinyl veneer) and kept them for 35 years! I just got the bug again a couple of years ago and picked up the 5 Paradigms (mains/center/surrounds) used. I was trying not to spend a bunch but, after the speakers, the spending on everything else started, so I'm back to upgrading speakers. I did pretty well value wise with Onkyo/Emotiva. This speaker purchase will definitely be out of proportion. But worth it. If I choose well, I'll likely replace electronics more than once before even thinking about changing speakers.

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense. It sounds like one of those things I would go with the designer recommendation (off center) for "insurance". I don't want to wonder what the difference might have been. I'd rather plan to play with grills as I can always remove them, but I'm not about to move the tweeter!

The off center look is more natural with the round tweeters (dome or the other ribbons in round bezel). There is something about the square shaped tweeter that looks a bit awkward off center.

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Night everyone. Bed time here for me.

I'm not sure what you mean by "mammoth". If you're talking about physical size, the dimensions of the SS8 are not that much different than the HT2-TL. The SS8 is about 39lbs heavier though (depending on which HT2-TL cabinet you get. I have the lighter 3/4" MDF version).

Peter

Your point about square vs. round shaped tweeters is good, but don't decide this based only on photos seen on your computer screen. I find that the visibility is different with the real speakers in real room light. The differences you mention stand out less with most levels of room light. This is especially true if the speakers are finished with a black panel in the area around the speakers, as Salk does in his standard finish. Of course, my STs have the dome tweeters with the round face plate.

To see photos of them, go to this link and scroll to the photos link at the bottom in my signature line.

With regard to the question of active vs. passive crossovers, there are two separate issues involved. The main issue is that crossovers on many commercially available speakers perform poorly because they were not correctly designed to begin with. This can be for a variety of reasons including cost, but the crossovers just don't do the job correctly. If these passive crossovers are replaced with an active crossover where the owner can easily change the electronic features of the crossover, it is possible that a better crossover design can be substituted. This assumes that the owner is an experienced and knowledgeable crossover designer, or that he gets lucky. I firmly believe that no other crossover designer can do better than Dennis Murphy's crossovers. Any many will do worse.

The other possible advantage of active crossovers is that inductor coils, used in passive crossovers, involve long lengths of copper wire. Their higher resistance can lead to lower output of a speaker. This is especially true for passive low-pass crossover filters at frequencies of 400 Hz or lower, where the inductor coils become very large (and expensive). The energy levels of these signals, and the high resistance of all that wire also generate higher operating temperatures that can change the behavior of the crossover enough (in theory) to be audible. At higher frequencies this is much less of a problem. So I would not go with active crossovers on Salk speakers.

Agree with you 100%.

52 lbs heavier as I would likely opt for the 3/4" in the HT2-TL. I'm told that Jim has said the 3/4" version has additional internal bracing and sound quality difference is inaudible. Room size is a factor also. While good for my current room, I can't predict what the next setup will be be in a few years when we move. I've seen all too many high end speakers for sale due to downsizing living arrangements. It seems the SS8 would overpower a small room. Versatility is a major plus in this choice.


Good idea to compare modes with no sub. It's that range we are talking about anyway. The Onkyo does have a setting to turn the sub on in direct mode.

One of things I like about Audyssey, though I'm sure to hear criticism about it , is dynamic equalization. It really helps the sound at lower volumes and makes the listening experience more consistent across listening levels. I don't have so much temptation to always turn it up to 80+db to get that feeling of the speakers hitting their stride. Consistent with what you say, I think the bulk of that benefit is from the low end boost at lower volumes.


Those are beauties. Good photos really make the quality evident. Even the stock black baffle looks fantastic.


With varying reasoning, the opinion that active crossovers on the Salks is not worth it is so far unanimous!

That's basically correct. Jim had a pair of HT3's running with DEQX, which could be taken out quickly to return the system to passive mode. The active system not only equalizes, it cleans up the phase response. So in theory it should provide the advantages of a transient perfect 1st order passive crossover without the disadvantages. Both Jim and I listened while the other switched the system, and we couldn't detect any crossover-related differences. The active device did smooth out a room bass mode, which was nice. But you don't need the crossover part for that.

And that's the last nail in the coffin! Thank you Dennis.

I don't see how....

Well, if I start debating between the HT2-TL and SS8, I'd have to gather up my air miles and take a trip to Pontiac and really check them out. When talking in the neighborhood of $10,000 with finish and shipping (before considering the center), it would start to make sense to make that travel and time investment.

First steps first... I'm in touch with Jim to see if I can find someone here to let me listen to their setup. Lots of SongTowers, but only two owners of other models, both HT2-TL - one in Anchorage, one in Nome. So it is all down to whether the Anchorage owner gives the ok (Nome is only by air ... or dogsled) - unless any of the ST's have the RAAL tweeter. Waiting to hear if he has records to be able to determine this.

I suppose so. I just dislike this strange impression that "more capable speakers will overpower small rooms".

At worst, you might want the passive radiator tuning modified a bit for a bit more rolloff of the bottom end (lower tuning) so that the room interaction is balanced. ...That's something you can't do yourself with a vented speaker like the HT2-TL ;P

And it will continue to do so. If you have not so, you should do a measured "sub haul" (my version of a two-sub sub crawl) to smooth the bass. Let me know if you need more info on this technique. Also, post in the Audyssey and Onkyo threads as to how to do proper A/B of Audyssey On/Off.


I agree with your recommendation of using REW (or OmniMic), but I'd use it for the "sub haul" (and even speaker placement). I also agree that with MultEQXT I could hear slight degradation in certain audiophile characteristics (room ambiance, cymbal decay, etc) although the overall SQ in my untreted room was better with Audyssey. But XT32 is a significant advance.

BTW one can use "ByPass L/R to EQ the subs and not the fronts with Audyssey. BUT, with all due respect, IMO your comments on Audyssey are not really good advice to give someone with an XT32-equipped processor, like our OP here. Unfortunately, my friend, you recently missed an opportunity to hear a properly calibrated XT32 system as we did not connect in time for you to stop by.

Understood. I also have room size/placement restrictions, so Jim recommended I get the 3/4" version.

I don't know if the SS8 would be too much speaker for you or not. Jim can definately give you some guidence there.


If it helps any, the Songtower, even in it's standard form, sounds alot like the HT2-TL. The HT2-TL gives you extra bass extension/output and some more resolution, but the overall sound/tone is VERY similar, so even a SongTower audition would give you a good idea of the "Salk sound".

This morning I gave Jim the green light on the walnut finish. I really like some of the other finishes--pau ferro, ebony, ziricote, wenge--but I went so overboard on the upgrades that I pretty much priced myself out of the exotic veneers. I'll post pics when I get them next month.

All products featuring Audyssey MultEQ XT32 are also paired with Sub EQ HT, an Audyssey program designed to EQ multi-sub setups. I haven't used it and don't know if it's even pertinent to your discussion. It's on the Denon 4311 I just ordered but I will only be using one sub so I don't think I'll be able to evaluate it. I agree with you re Audyssey. I didn't like what it did on my current low-end AVR.

There's a comparison chart on the website. "Filter resolution" is significantly greater with the XT32--512 vs. 16 with the satellites and 512 vs. 128 with the subwoofer.

At one time I had the DEQX active HT-3's as well as external passive crossovers and I concur with Dennis. I ended up using the passives as the active crossover added enough latency that I couldn't use in a home theater set-up.

HDMI didn't correct that?!

ime, yea...

Didn't have HDMI when I had the DEQX. The problem was that the delay in most preamps/receivers is limited in the difference between speakers. So if the mains are showing too great a delay you can't adjust the center to correct. I was getting like 25ft from the mains when the actual distance was like 6 feet. It is the difference that was the problem. I don't see how HDMI would cure that?

I think I've seen you over on the Onkyo threads, if I'm not mistaken.

I know how to do a single sub crawl with the sub in the listening position. Can't imagine how to do it with two subs.

I let Audyssey do its thing with my subs underneath my mains. I have no complaints about the bass in my system (twin Rhythmic F12s). But if I go with a Salk tower, replacement will be required, so do tell!

And I will post over at Onkyo about the A/B and why I may not be getting sub output in direct mode. I know I have in the past.