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The Official Salk Sound Owner's And Discussion Thread - Page 252

post #7531 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryder125 View Post

what do you guys use for surround speakers? the ones they offer seem kinda big.

NHT SB 1. Works great with my Salks.
post #7532 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

I went with the standard Surround I. The upgrade would have been another $700 and I was already about 20% over budget. I wanted the RAALs for two channel music and the ever-important center channel, but I reckoned--and Jim agreed--that the secondary sounds you normally get out of the rears in a 5.1 mix wouldn't justify the additional expense.

do you have the walnut song towers supercharged? going off of your profile photo... if you do that the same system I'm thinking of looks so killer.
post #7533 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryder125 View Post

do you have the walnut song towers supercharged? going off of your profile photo... if you do that the same system I'm thinking of looks so killer.
I have supercharged Towers and a supercharged Center. And then the Surround I rears and a Salk/Rythmik 12" sub. Go for it. I recommend it highly. What veneer are you considering?
post #7534 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

I have supercharged Towers and a supercharged Center. And then the Surround I rears and a Salk/Rythmik 12" sub. Go for it. I recommend it highly. What veneer are you considering?

The walnut looks all kinds of awesomeness so that's what I'm leaning towards right now. I'm pretty sold on the Salks which is kinda crazy seeing how I never heard them! but they just look too good and I like that the Supercharged ST aren't as deep.
post #7535 of 9127
Thread Starter 
Jim finally completed a pair of SoundScape 8's for himself, so I figured I'd share some pics here of them. The veneer is pepperwood burl with a hand rubbed high gloss finish; they are stunning!





Link
post #7536 of 9127
Is that a Accuton mid? Just wondering...


Brian in Bakersfield...
post #7537 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hspecialist View Post

Is that a Accuton mid? Just wondering...
Brian in Bakersfield...

Accuton mid & RAAL tweet. Ta_Da_by_coleymonkey.gif

http://www.salksound.com/soundscape%208%20specifications.htm
post #7538 of 9127
Thanks for the link...(drooling)...
post #7539 of 9127
"Thanks for the link...(drooling)..."

really? it has 84db 1w1m sensitivity. very flat frequency response at one watt, but what happens when you hit it with a ton of power. they won't come anywhere near reproducing the dynamics of a live orchestra. you need to hit about 120db instantaneous peaks at the listening position for that. pass.
post #7540 of 9127
Craftsmanship and choice of drivers, for sure. The RAAL units are the best, imo. The transparent sound they produce is amazing! Doesn't matter who is using them or what enclosure they are used in, very sweet.
post #7541 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Thanks for the link...(drooling)..."
really? it has 84db 1w1m sensitivity. very flat frequency response at one watt, but what happens when you hit it with a ton of power. they won't come anywhere near reproducing the dynamics of a live orchestra. you need to hit about 120db instantaneous peaks at the listening position for that. pass.

The SS8's are 87dB 1w1m sensitive. I assume it tips over if you hit it with too much power away from the axis of rotation. My tensor tympani muscles would also contract.
post #7542 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Thanks for the link...(drooling)..."
really? it has 84db 1w1m sensitivity. very flat frequency response at one watt, but what happens when you hit it with a ton of power. they won't come anywhere near reproducing the dynamics of a live orchestra. you need to hit about 120db instantaneous peaks at the listening position for that. pass.

What are the problems with hitting 84db speakers with a lot of power?

I thought that was the point of lower sensitivity. You just need more amps to get it to reference levels....

(I am thinking of a pair of SS10s rght now)
post #7543 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Thanks for the link...(drooling)..."
really? it has 84db 1w1m sensitivity. very flat frequency response at one watt, but what happens when you hit it with a ton of power. they won't come anywhere near reproducing the dynamics of a live orchestra. you need to hit about 120db instantaneous peaks at the listening position for that. pass.
what sort of live orchestra hits those peaks at a reasonable sitting distance at any number of concert hall"s?
post #7544 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemir View Post

What are the problems with hitting 84db speakers with a lot of power?
I thought that was the point of lower sensitivity. You just need more amps to get it to reference levels....
(I am thinking of a pair of SS10s rght now)

yeah, that's the marketing line.

the more power that you dump into a driver the more that it will compress dynamics. as you approach the rated power of a driver, putting more power into it will not increase spl as you would think. the resistance of the coil will go up and most of the power will be lost to heat. this is called power compression.

this isn't true for just low sensitivity drivers, it is true for all drivers.

i have nothing against low sensitivity drivers when used in multiples that give them a high sensitivity net.

take a look at the old infinity irs speakers.

post #7545 of 9127
"what sort of live orchestra hits those peaks at a reasonable sitting distance at any number of concert hall"s?"

pick your favorite. front row. the gand finale will be up around there.
post #7546 of 9127
The only time I sit front row is at a gentlemen"s club.
post #7547 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

yeah, that's the marketing line.
the more power that you dump into a driver the more that it will compress dynamics. as you approach the rated power of a driver, putting more power into it will not increase spl as you would think. the resistance of the coil will go up and most of the power will be lost to heat. this is called power compression.
this isn't true for just low sensitivity drivers, it is true for all drivers.
i have nothing against low sensitivity drivers when used in multiples that give them a high sensitivity net.
take a look at the old infinity irs speakers.

Wouldn't that problem be resolved by getting drivers that have much higher power rating? Or is that just too simplistic an idea that overlooks some of the basic physics?

(Disclaimer: I am not a physiscian)
post #7548 of 9127
I agree somewhat with his post. Salks, and the SS8, are not very efficient which makes a high powered amplifier mandatory. I'm not sure why Jim's designs are so inefficient. I assume it must be the drivers used? If there is a downside to Salks it would have to be they are relatively inefficient compared to some other brands.

-Brian
post #7549 of 9127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

what sort of live orchestra hits those peaks at a reasonable sitting distance at any number of concert hall"s?

This. I have attended numerous live performances, and never has the sound reach 120dB. I don't sit in the front row, but that's because I don't think the performance sounds best there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post

I agree somewhat with his post. Salks, and the SS8, are not very efficient which makes a high powered amplifier mandatory. I'm not sure why Jim's designs are so inefficient. I assume it must be the drivers used? If there is a downside to Salks it would have to be they are relatively inefficient compared to some other brands.
-Brian

Jim states it much more eloquently than I, but in a nutshell it is because the high efficiency drivers he has tested don't meet his requirements for musical reproduction. I'm talking detail, timbre/tonality, accuracy, etc. There are trade-offs to high efficiency designs just like there are trade-offs to non-HE designs. Heck, speaker design is nothing but trade-offs; we just need to find the ones we're willing to live with. Me personally: I don't listen to music at 120dB, so my Salk speakers perform just fine. smile.gif If I had a dedicated HT in a very large room I'd use something else (again - design trade-offs).

It seems the pro high efficiency design fanboys have nothing better to do lately than to corrupt threads with hate towards non HE designs. It's kind of pathetic really... What's ironic is that Dr. Floyd Toole himself (a pioneer in this industry) says in his latest book that in all but very large rooms most traditional dome-style speakers can hit reference levels for short periods of time without adverse effects to the sound, and without the necessity of horns and such. He also states that such levels are not preferred by most people, and that HE designs are more likely to cause hearing damage to those that listen to them. But yet the pro HE design fanboys still push their agenda, claiming non-HE can't cut it. And yet the 2-channel industry is dominated by non-HE designs. Gee, I wonder why? rolleyes.giftongue.gif HE designs are great for HT, but the people that push only that design and insist reference levels are a must for movie watching are a small sampling of the masses; they are a niche group, but apparently also the most angry and pushy. wink.gif

As mentioned already, the SS8's are 87dB sensitive, not 84.
post #7550 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

This. I have attended numerous live performances, and never has the sound reach 120dB. I don't sit in the front row, but that's because I don't think the performance sounds best there.
Jim states it much more eloquently than I, but in a nutshell it is because the high efficiency drivers he has tested don't meet his requirements for musical reproduction. I'm talking detail, timbre/tonality, accuracy, etc. There are trade-offs to high efficiency designs just like there are trade-offs to non-HE designs. Heck, speaker design is nothing but trade-offs; we just need to find the ones we're willing to live with. Me personally: I don't listen to music at 120dB, so my Salk speakers perform just fine. smile.gif If I had a dedicated HT in a very large room I'd use something else (again - design trade-offs).
It seems the pro high efficiency design fanboys have nothing better to do lately than to corrupt threads with hate towards non HE designs. It's kind of pathetic really... What's ironic is that Dr. Floyd Toole himself (a pioneer in this industry) says in his latest book that in all but very large rooms most traditional dome-style speakers can hit reference levels for short periods of time without adverse effects to the sound, and without the necessity of horns and such. He also states that such levels are not preferred by most people, and that HE designs are more likely to cause hearing damage to those that listen to them. But yet the pro HE design fanboys still push their agenda, claiming non-HE can't cut it. And yet the 2-channel industry is dominated by non-HE designs. Gee, I wonder why? rolleyes.giftongue.gif HE designs are great for HT, but the people that push only that design and insist reference levels are a must for movie watching are a small sampling of the masses; they are a niche group, but apparently also the most angry and pushy. wink.gif
As mentioned already, the SS8's are 87dB sensitive, not 84.
There is an interesting webcast of one of the SE Detroit Woofer and Tweeter Marching Society audio club meetings that cited a study that violin and viola players actually have more damage to their hearing than rock players. They did some speculating on the cause. I think there is also one where one of the members did some loudness testing of various seats at live orchestral concerts but I don't remember the results.
post #7551 of 9127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

There is an interesting webcast of one of the SE Detroit Woofer and Tweeter Marching Society audio club meetings that cited a study that violin and viola players actually have more damage to their hearing than rock players. They did some speculating on the cause. I think there is also one where one of the members did some loudness testing of various seats at live orchestral concerts but I don't remember the results.

Do violinists not where ear protection during performances? I think most rock players do. That's very interesting info, Randy. Do you think it has anything to do with the dispersion pattern of amplified vs. un-amplified instruments, with the former being fired forward via speakers during rock concerts?
post #7552 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Do violinists not where ear protection during performances? I think most rock players do. That's very interesting info, Randy. Do you think it has anything to do with the dispersion pattern of amplified vs. un-amplified instruments, with the former being fired forward via speakers during rock concerts?
I don't know. I am not sure whether they can wear earplugs. Good question for Dennis. They (club member, not the study, it was just aimed at hearing loss) speculated it might be their position in the orchestra. But, yes they did speculate on the amplified vs. un-amplified forward speakers also.

By the way, here is something i just found whereby listening at over 100db for more than a minute can cause hearing damage.

http://www.soundbytes.com/page/SB/CTGY/decibel-levels
post #7553 of 9127
Great, now we're talking about "hearing damage"! I'm out of here...
Edited by Del Cosmos - 7/26/12 at 9:23am
post #7554 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I have attended numerous live performances, and never has the sound reach 120dB.
I've taken RTA measurements at over a hundred major concerts, with results averaging 105 to115dBC in the FOH. Said FOH is 125 feet from the stage/PA stacks, so 120dB in the closer seats is not only not out of the question, it's common. Not that I recommend listening to music at even 105dB, but if duplicating actual concert levels is what you want to do a minimum of 105dB at the listening position is what you need to do it. This doesn't apply to all genres, but FWIW I measured the same results with Country and Western as I did with Metal.
As for on stage, those levels tend to be the same with either amplified instruments or orchestras. Where individual players are concerned orchestral players are at a disadvantage, as they generally don't use in-ear monitors that they adjust to a comfortable level.
post #7555 of 9127
That's fine Bill but turbo mentioned orchestras which I take to mean unamplified performances. At a reasonable seating distance, not among the musicians, 120dB seems just a bit optimistic.
post #7556 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I've taken RTA measurements at over a hundred major concerts, with results averaging 105 to115dBC in the FOH. Said FOH is 125 feet from the stage/PA stacks, so 120dB in the closer seats is not only not out of the question, it's common. Not that I recommend listening to music at even 105dB, but if duplicating actual concert levels is what you want to do a minimum of 105dB at the listening position is what you need to do it. This doesn't apply to all genres, but FWIW I measured the same results with Country and Western as I did with Metal.
As for on stage, those levels tend to be the same with either amplified instruments or orchestras. Where individual players are concerned orchestral players are at a disadvantage, as they generally don't use in-ear monitors that they adjust to a comfortable level.

If true, and you wanted the headroom to be able to hit a 115db peak with SoundScape 8's from a distance of about 8 feet (that's how far my speakers are from me in my room) then the theoretical amplification needed for SS8's would be almost 1,500 watts per channel. Ouch.
post #7557 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

That's fine Bill but turbo mentioned orchestras which I take to mean unamplified performances. At a reasonable seating distance, not among the musicians, 120dB seems just a bit optimistic.
Nearly all orchestras are amplified. I measured the Boston Pops at 90-95dB at 125 feet out.
post #7558 of 9127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

If true, and you wanted the headroom to be able to hit a 115db peak with SoundScape 8's from a distance of about 8 feet (that's how far my speakers are from me in my room) then the theoretical amplification needed for SS8's would be almost 1,500 watts per channel. Ouch.

That's a whole lot 'o power! biggrin.gif

Reference levels are described as 105dB peak at the speakers and 115 at the subwoofer(s). No one could consistently listen at 115dB at the speakers and continue hearing well. smile.gif

Edit: Here is the calculator I always reference (dunno if there is a better one or not):
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

To hit reference levels based on your distance of 8 feet using two speakers and not taking into account the room, it would take 187 watts for the 87dB SS8's. Using just one speaker at a time (who does that?) it would take 372 watts. In either scenario, a "ton" of power is unnecessary.
Edited by Nuance - 7/26/12 at 11:19am
post #7559 of 9127
What venue and playing what?
post #7560 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

That's a whole lot 'o power! biggrin.gif
Reference levels are described as 105dB peak at the speakers and 115 at the subwoofer(s). No one could consistently listen at 115dB at the speakers and continue hearing well. smile.gif
Edit: Here is the calculator I always reference (dunno if there is a better one or not):
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
To hit reference levels based on your distance of 8 feet using two speakers and not taking into account the room, it would take 187 watts for the 87dB SS8's. Using just one speaker at a time (who does that?) it would take 372 watts. In either scenario, a "ton" of power is unnecessary.
I noticed that the calculator did not take into room acoustics. I think the more damped a room is, the more power. I know I thought I clipped my Emotiva amp (200 watts) playing 3 db above reference with Procella P8 center and Jonathan didn't think that was possible. However, my room is more on the dead side which I think greatly increases the power you need. I didn't look to see if the calculator took into account how low the impedance went.
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