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The Official Salk Sound Owner's And Discussion Thread - Page 253

post #7561 of 9127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

I noticed that the calculator did not take into room acoustics. I think the more damped a room is, the more power. I know I thought I clipped my Emotiva amp (200 watts) playing 3 db above reference with Procella P8 center and Jonathan didn't think that was possible. However, my room is more on the dead side which I think greatly increases the power you need. I didn't look to see if the calculator took into account how low the impedance went.

The calculator lets you factor in the room, but I told it not to as a worst case scenario for amplifier power (and a best case for sound quality). So the #'s you see reflect that. If you factor in room gain the power numbers would be less in order to hit 105dB at 8 feet away.

Here is what it says in topic 1 from the calculator link about impedance:

"1. The speaker sensitivity, typically expressed in decibels (dB) with 1 watt (or 2.83 volts across an 8 ohm speaker) measured on-axis one meter away. Typical values are 85-89 dB for bookshelf speakers, 87 to 92 dB for floorstanding models, with high efficiency speakers in the 93 to 100+ dB range. If you are not sure, try 90 dB as a default. (Pro equipment has sensitivities as high as 111 dB!)"
post #7562 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

The calculator lets you factor in the room, but I told it not to as a worst case scenario for amplifier power (and a best case for sound quality). So the #'s you see reflect that. If you factor in room gain the power numbers would be less in order to hit 105dB at 8 feet away.
Here is what it says in topic 1 from the calculator link about impedance:
"1. The speaker sensitivity, typically expressed in decibels (dB) with 1 watt (or 2.83 volts across an 8 ohm speaker) measured on-axis one meter away. Typical values are 85-89 dB for bookshelf speakers, 87 to 92 dB for floorstanding models, with high efficiency speakers in the 93 to 100+ dB range. If you are not sure, try 90 dB as a default. (Pro equipment has sensitivities as high as 111 dB!)"
I took that to mean room gain for bass not for absorption ...but I didn't study it closely just saw this "This calculator does not account for room acoustics..." In other words, you can account for room gain, but not room loss.
Edited by Randy Bessinger - 7/26/12 at 2:32pm
post #7563 of 9127
I've been curious about the significance of the wattage increase with decreasing speaker impedance. When folks talk about needing 400 watts - is that at whatever the speaker impedance is? For example - I have a 250wpc at 8ohm amp. The SS8's are rated 4ohm. The amp is something like 400-500wpc at 4. So how should I take these calculations of how many watts are needed for a given output?
post #7564 of 9127
So this seems to have skimmed past my question...

Am I wrong in thinking that lower sensitivity speakers just need more power to avoid clipping and produce great sound?

Are there other considerations with higher powered amps?
post #7565 of 9127
And a followup question:

Most speakers are 8ohm, but most Salks are 4ohm. How does affect things? I understand that you need half as much power for a 4ohm speaker, which would help with output.
post #7566 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemir View Post

And a followup question:
Most speakers are 8ohm, but most Salks are 4ohm. How does affect things?
You would potentially get 3dB higher voltage sensitivity, which may or may not be of any benefit. Most speakers cannot make use of more than half their thermal power rating before running out of excursion capacity, so if your amp has more than half the power rating of the speakers chances are no difference.
post #7567 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I've taken RTA measurements at over a hundred major concerts, with results averaging 105 to115dBC in the FOH. Said FOH is 125 feet from the stage/PA stacks, so 120dB in the closer seats is not only not out of the question, it's common. Not that I recommend listening to music at even 105dB, but if duplicating actual concert levels is what you want to do a minimum of 105dB at the listening position is what you need to do it. This doesn't apply to all genres, but FWIW I measured the same results with Country and Western as I did with Metal.
As for on stage, those levels tend to be the same with either amplified instruments or orchestras. Where individual players are concerned orchestral players are at a disadvantage, as they generally don't use in-ear monitors that they adjust to a comfortable level.

Based on the last three concerts I have attended, I most definitely do not want to duplicate the sound I heard at them. The sound I get in my home theater is far superior. I have the blu-ray for one of the concerts (Crossroads 2010) and there is just no comparison. In all three cases, the bass was horrible, boomy and indistinct, especially at Crossroads and a Derek Trucks concert here in Fort Wayne. The poor bass at Crossroads surprised me given it was at an outdoor venue (Toyota Park). All three concerts were louder than they needed to be especially the third one (Joe Bonamossa). My wife and I were with other couples (age range from mid 20's to mid 50's) at this concert and everyone thought it was too loud. Also intelligibility of vocals was not up to par, especially at the latter two.

I talked to a fellow engineer at work who does sound reinforcement on the side and he said the sound engineers at a lot of these concerts push the bass to absurd levels.

By far the best sound I have heard at a concert of amplified music was Roy Buchanan at Carnegie Hall back in 1974. That sound was just glorious. On the other hand, one of the worst was Roy at the Roxy in Hollywood around 1977. My ears were ringing after that concert and wonder if that concert was the origiin if my tinnitus.

Cheers,
OldMovieNut
post #7568 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMovieNut View Post


I talked to a fellow engineer at work who does sound reinforcement on the side and he said the sound engineers at a lot of these concerts push the bass to absurd levels.
No argument there, even in the top ranks of pro-touring there are many incompetent FOH engineers. Most of the hacks are those who work for the band and got their job when the band was still playing club gigs, and remained with them even though their skill set never rose above the needs of a bar band. Most of the better FOH engineers are also studio engineers, and most of those who do the best job mixing the bass not coincidentally are themselves bass players.
post #7569 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

it would take 187 watts for the 87dB SS8's.

Actually it would take double that as the ss8s are 4 ohm, or 84db/w/m for an 87db/2.83v/m sensitivity.
Quote:
Using just one speaker at a time (who does that?) it would take 372 watts.

stereo speaker pairs do not couple in such a way that their total output sums as one source. so really evetyone listens to one speaker at a time when listening to stereo, as the speakers are not colocated and not necessarily producing the same signal.
Quote:
In either scenario, a "ton" of power is unnecessary.

372 x 2 is 764w for a 4 ohm speaker

That's not a lot of power? Anyways I have little opinion on the matter. There are mostly pros to higher efficiency. The only con is that one doesn't get 20hz extension out of a 93db/w/m speaker. The proponents of 85db/w/m speakers straight up prefer deep extension out of small speakers at the cost of efficiency.

In the case of the soundscapes your limiting factor is the C79 midrange which is around 87.5db/2.83v/m so it's a moot point anyways. If you want the tiny little, resolving little 4.5" mid playing low enough to mate to 10" and 12" and dual 8"woofers you have to settle for low efficiency. The bigger accuton mids are actually pretty efficient compared to their direct comparisions IE the W22s in the HT2-TL. They also sound every bit as good. What rhey are though is fragile in a 2-way, and will not give the horizontal dispersion of the 4.5" mid.

Ultimately there is nothing "better" about low efficiency. It's a necessary evil in some cases, but normally just a design decision from the hi fi community chasing 40hz out of 5" drivers etc.
post #7570 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

The only con is that one doesn't get 20hz extension out of a 93db/w/m speaker.
You can get 100dB/watt at 20 Hz with the right sub.
post #7571 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You can get 100dB/watt at 20 Hz with the right sub.

Sure... but...

1) Such a sub would likely be a horn - thus a bandpass device and limited in upper bandwidth. The Hi Fi community wants a driver to cover 20hz to 300hz give or take, instead of spreading that load between 20hz - 80hz + 80hz - 300hz
2) Such a speaker would not be small the way people expect. People want small and deep and are willing to trade loud.

FWIW there's a 21" driver that in the right box can probably produce around 94db/w/m @ 20hz as a direct radiator. But again though it's not small - people want 20hz out of speakers the size of a fire hydrant.
post #7572 of 9127
I recently decided to sell my stand mount monitor speakers (Lafleur X1) to move into a pair of floor stands for my 2 ch system.

The Salk line of speakers seems to have high praise and recommendations. I think I am more interested in a transmission line speaker to get more bass from a smaller enclosure as well as getting the ease of placement advantages that come along with TL type speakers.

My front end consists of a Simaudio i7, Simaudio Supernova CD player, Wadia 170i dock and a Bryston BDA1 DAC. Does anyone have any knowledge of how well Salks pair with Simaudio gear?

My room is approximately 11' x 33' x 8' ceilings. My system faces the long direction and I sit roughly 10 to 12 ft from the front wall. I like base, but I don't want to overwhelm the room with an overly obtrusive speaker as well to obtain base.

I am located in NB, Canada, so there is nowhere nearby for me to audition a pair of Salks unless I travel a fair distance.

I listen to a mixture of rock, pop, folk, new age. Rarely any country or classical.

I have been looking at both the Ellis 1801-TL and the HT2-TL speakers. What are your thoughts on these or any other recommendations based on my gear/room and musical tastes. I have also been considering the Legacy Signature SE or Classic HD. Probably a biased room to ask this question, but anyone ever have a chance to compare?
post #7573 of 9127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Actually it would take double that as the ss8s are 4 ohm, or 84db/w/m for an 87db/2.83v/m sensitivity.

Perhaps I am confused. Why is a 87dB speaker now an 84dB speaker? Does it have to do with the 2.83v/m rating versus the calculator using 1w/1m?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Anyways I have little opinion on the matter.

Oh really? smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Ultimately there is nothing "better" about low efficiency.

Says you. smile.gif That is completely subjective. I say non-HE drivers sound better, while you may disagree. There is nothing scientific about which one prefers; it's just an opinion.

This topic of debate is a good one, but it only need apply to those that listen at reference level. I don't because I value my hearing. I don't buy the "reference level through a true HE design system doesn't sound loud and won't damage your hearing" nonsense because it's simply not true. I've said it before and I'll say it again: 2-channel speakers are not designed with HT use and reference levels in mind. They are designed with high fidelity music reproduction in mind, and if we all listening to music at reference levels we'd be deaf by now, or at least seriously lacking in our hearing capabilities. If you want a reference level HT experience buy high sensitive speakers. Whaaaaaat? I can't hear you - speak up! biggrin.gif
Edited by Nuance - 7/27/12 at 9:20am
post #7574 of 9127
Quote:
Does anyone have any knowledge of how well Salks pair with Simaudio gear?

Why wouldn't it?
Quote:
I have been looking at both the Ellis 1801-TL and the HT2-TL speakers. What are your thoughts on these or any other recommendations based on my gear/room and musical tastes.

Try to swing for a pair of SoundScape 8s if you can, otherwise consider the Supercharged Songtowers.

JMO
Quote:
Oh really?

Well of course I have opinions, but I mean that different source material or end-users will have different requirements. There's no one size fits all that certain people at both extremes try to push. I wouldn't have bought Philharmonic 2s if that weren't true, even though I pretty much disagree that they need to be as inefficient as they are (both the mid and tweeter around 92db/w/m, but the woofer is not)
Quote:
I say non-HE drivers sound better

...So... you say a Beyma TPL-150H, BG Neo8, BG Neo10, Salk Archos, B&W FST, etc sound worse? Simply because those are all rather efficient?
Quote:
Perhaps I am confused. Why is a 87dB speaker now an 84dB speaker? Does it have to do with the 2.83v/m rating versus the calculator using 1w/1m?

Yes, 2.83v is two watts, not one watt. Even if the voltage is the same, the current is not, and that's what's creating the heat.
Edited by Eternal Velocity - 7/27/12 at 9:28am
post #7575 of 9127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post


...So... you say a Beyma TPL-150H, BG Neo8, BG Neo10, Salk Archos, B&W FST, etc sound worse? Simply because those are all rather efficient?

I'd need to hear them all to draw conclusions (heard some of them - not all). Obviously I haven't heard every driver there is, just like no one else has. Thus far most of the lower efficiency driver speakers have sounded better to me. The driver sensitivity is probably just a coincidence, though. I suspect there are other properties/design attributes at play involved that are causing me to hear the non-HE designs as more realistic to my ears. Drivers are just drivers without a crossover and proper design implementation. To spell it out so I am clear, it's likely that the overall design is something I didn't care for rather than it simply using HE drivers. So, from now on rather than me saying I don't think HE drivers are as realistic sounding, I'll say I just haven't cared for most of the designs I've heard utilizing them. The Seaton Catalysts are one exception, as they are quite good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Yes, 2.83v is two watts, not one watt. Even if the voltage is the same, the current is not, and that's what's creating the heat.

And the Salk's are rated at 2.83v - I see. I didn't notice that on the website before. I'll inquire of Jim about it.
Edited by Nuance - 7/27/12 at 9:54am
post #7576 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Why wouldn't it?.

Because in my experience, different speakers work better with some electronics more than others. Just wondering if anyone has had any experience using Simaudio gear with the Salks and their impression.
post #7577 of 9127
Thread Starter 
bluemark81,

I am sure your Simaudio gear will sound great with Salk speakers. Do you plan to cross to a subwoofer?
post #7578 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Thus far most of the lower efficiency driver speakers have sounded better to me.

Sure, but out of all the (half-decent home audio) speakers you've heard, what percentage was "low" efficiency? Probably 85-90%, right? So isn't that skewing the results?
Quote:
The driver sensitivity is probably just a coincidence, though.

Well a small driver expected to play low enough in, say, a two-way will inherently be inefficient.
Even a very small midrange expected to play low enough in a threeway probably won't be efficient.

They're inefficient because they're small, not because they've optimized SQ in any way (besides being small, which does have its pros ITO SQ)

What you need for efficiency is both low mass without trading away its operation as a piston. Paper tends to deform when a voice coil pushes against its center at high frequencies. Aluminum ends up weighing too much. I think the ceramic in the accuton c79 also just weighs too much. The problem boils down to finding a good material. B&W probably came closest with that specific weave of kevlar they use. Even then though, to get the adequate efficiency they had to go with a 6.5`` driver, which is not small for a dedicated mid.

The best of both worlds, so to speak, is probably beryllium - light and stiff. But it still might not dig low enough to work in a 3-way. You`d probably have to go 4-way, or even 5-way if you include subs below 70hz or so. That`s what the real issue is - bandwidth!
Quote:
Drivers are just drivers without a crossover and proper design implementation.

Right. That B&W FST I mentioned for example, probably doesn't sound all too hot in the B&W speaker. Major crossover issues including being played right through its kevlar breakup. I bet if you did the same with the magnesium W18 in the HT2-TL, you would flat out cringe tongue.gif
Quote:
And the Salk's are rated at 2.83v - I see. I didn't notice that on the website before. I'll inquire of Jim about it.

Basically, a speaker's efficiency is frequency "dependant". So it might be 100db/w/m @ 40hz and 80db/w/m @ 250hz so it wouldn't be correct for Jim to state it as xdb/w/m. An input voltage however is a constant, and 2.83v is convenient because it is 1w @ 8 ohm - a good standard. but remember that a 2 ohm speaker will be 4W at the same voltage. A 16 ohm speaker will only need half a watt for the same voltage. So the difference between efficiency and sensitivity have to be defined. You need an impedance Z-chart and a voltage sensitivity to know efficiency at a given frequency.
Edited by Eternal Velocity - 7/27/12 at 10:41am
post #7579 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

bluemark81,
I am sure your Simaudio gear will sound great with Salk speakers. Do you plan to cross to a subwoofer?

I do have a small Velodyne Optimum 8 sub that I'm currently using with my Lafleurs, so I will likely continue using one, whether the same one or not, I'm not sure. It all depends on the bass I'm able to get out of a new speaker as well without breaking the bank.
post #7580 of 9127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post

I do have a small Velodyne Optimum 8 sub that I'm currently using with my Lafleurs, so I will likely continue using one, whether the same one or not, I'm not sure. It all depends on the bass I'm able to get out of a new speaker as well without breaking the bank.

Well, if you're looking to get good bass performance then I'd go with the bigger speaker, which is also the ones that digs deeper. The HT2-TL's dig down into the 20's in-room, and they hit with authority. Based on what you've stated I'd certainly choose those over the Ellis'. The Super-Charged SongTower's would also be a good option IMO.
post #7581 of 9127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Sure, but out of all the (half-decent home audio) speakers you've heard, what percentage was "low" efficiency? Probably 85-90%, right? So isn't that skewing the results?

These days, yeah, probably 80-85%. I've heard way too many speakers to even keep track. When I was keeping score, though, the higher efficiency designs weren't my forte, and I heard quite a few of them. That doesn't mean there aren't any out there for me; on the contrary I'm sure. I just haven't found one that sounds as good as my favorite non-HE designs for music within a few specific price ranges. I'd sure love to, though; it would make using them in a dual purpose 2-channel and HT environment so much easier. smile.gif And I don't care about how low they dig, as my TC subs will handle the subsonics. Once I get my basement in order (I am hoping for renovations later this year) I may request Jim build me a speaker that hits the bulls-eye in all of my necessary categories but that is also of a high efficiency and controlled directivity design.

Thanks for the tech lesson, although I already knew most of what you said. smile.gif
post #7582 of 9127
Subsonics?

Why would you bother with a sub if you're only using it for subsonics? tongue.gif;)

I'm just nit picking and having fun. I think you mean something else though!
post #7583 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Sure... but...
The Hi Fi community wants a driver to cover 20hz to 300hz give or take, instead of spreading that load between 20hz - 80hz + 80hz - 300hz.
I'd never run a sub higher than 100Hz, nor would I use a driver only capable of an 80-300Hz bandwidth.
post #7584 of 9127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Subsonics?
Why would you bother with a sub if you're only using it for subsonics? tongue.gif;)
I'm just nit picking and having fun. I think you mean something else though!

I just meant the low frequencies and thought I was making up a word. smile.gif

Now...back to SALK talk.
post #7585 of 9127
I posted these on audiocircle the thought perhaps some would like to see them here as well. Here's the story...

jd3 ordered a pair of HT2-TL's that he was to pick up at AKFest. When he and Jill saw and heard my SoundScape 8's, he asked if it would be possible to take them home instead.

Well, I needed them until our first manufacturing batch of woofers arrived for this new design. But I told him that as soon as they did, he could certainly have my speakers (which he picked up recently).

At any rate, that left me without SS8's. So, just after AKFest, I started work on a replacement pair which we just finished. Here are some pics...

ss8-pepperwoodburl.jpg

And a close-up...

ss8-pepperwoodburl-cu.jpg


- Jim
post #7586 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsalk View Post

I posted these on audiocircle the thought perhaps some would like to see them here as well. Here's the story...
jd3 ordered a pair of HT2-TL's that he was to pick up at AKFest. When he and Jill saw and heard my SoundScape 8's, he asked if it would be possible to take them home instead.
Well, I needed them until our first manufacturing batch of woofers arrived for this new design. But I told him that as soon as they did, he could certainly have my speakers (which he picked up recently).
At any rate, that left me without SS8's. So, just after AKFest, I started work on a replacement pair which we just finished. Here are some pics...
ss8-pepperwoodburl.jpg
And a close-up...
ss8-pepperwoodburl-cu.jpg
- Jim

Absolutely stunning! Now they have me wondering about ordering those instead of the HT2-TL's.
post #7587 of 9127
I am sorry but those are NOT speakers. Those are pieces of art!!!
Absolutely stunning I agree. Wish I could come up with a better adjective!
The more I look at those pictures the more I crave them. :-)
So just how much would a duplicate pair cost?????
Edited by PeterK - 7/29/12 at 10:05pm
post #7588 of 9127
Keeping track of the number of projects we have going on at any given time has been more of a challenge as the numbers increase. So we set out to develop a tracking system that will allow us to monitor exactly where we are at with any given project at any time.

What we now have set up in the shop offers a myriad of views and, so far, it seems to be working quite well (we are still in the beta development stage).

One major advantage of this system is that customers will be able to check the status of their project at any time. Here is an example of what they might see...

tracking.gif

When someone places an order, they are naturally curious as to how we are doing on their project. So we often get emails and calls asking "how are you coming on my speakers?" Or, "when will they be finished."

We can never answer the latter question as speakers normally get born when they want to...not when we want them to. But at least now, people can check anytime they want (they just have to be careful not to wear out their keyboard checking as the graph will not move all that fast).

In this test example, you see how we did on my new SS8's. We didn't need to pack or ship them so the graph was never complete.

If you want to play with it, you can input invoice "1001" and the last name "salk" to see the fake order we are building for Mary (she "ordered" a few more speakers than I did and you can see each one separately). Here is a link to the page: http://www.salksound.com/projects%20home.php

We don't have a link to this page on our site yet since we are still in the beta stage. But we hope this one-of-a-kind system will be a real asset to those placing orders with us.

Enjoy!

- Jim
post #7589 of 9127
Jim.. that is a trend-setting move!
post #7590 of 9127
That's pretty cool Jim. It makes sense too. That should reduce your emails by a factor of 10.
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