The Official Salk Sound Owner's And Discussion Thread - Page 260

Many AVRs do have an analog bypass, but you'll have to forego room correction if you use it. With those that don't, any benefit from an external DAC will most likely be lost in the ADC/DAC loop .

Actually, the picture shows the speakers in the position they in on Saturday and Sunday, and his comments were posted today. So I think he heard them on Saturday or Sunday. Good thing that.

I agree that it doesn't make logical sense to DAC for analog input into a pre/pro that will ADC and then DAC again. But to my ears, it clearly improves sound to run through my Bel Canto DAC with analog to the pre/pro than to run digital directly into the pre/pro. I can't tell you why, but it isn't subtle. It is not a blind test, but it is immediate A/B listening. I can also tell the difference comparing use of the Bel Canto vs. a W4S DAC2 in this mode. Like I said, my ears judge, not my logic, in this case.

I did try an external pre. It was an ARC LS-17. Considered very high quality, though I may have preferred a C-J pre in sound. Soundstage and imaging were definitely better, but over sound was less smooth, harder to listen to. I would have to do more room treatment to do without audyssey. Plus, I feel like I am needing to tame the SS8s for brightness and the room correction I get with Audyssey helps in that effort.

That's a good point at 10 ft wide for the theater area there's not a helluva a lot of room but I want top notch sound. Do you see any issues with my PB12-NSD holding up the bottom end if I went with the SCST's? I don't typically have it up loud at all for music which I would think means I'm not working it as hard and it will therefore stay a bit tighter and more accurate?

Electronics can't improve sound - they can only degrade it except for EQ.

Nothing's wrong with your experiences, but I would expect that the proper controls weren't in place. Different voltage drive levels and that sort of thing can make "seeming" differences in sound when none are actually there.

I disagree. Your view sounds theoretical. Perhaps electronics can only make the sound (signal) less pure in some way, but how it sounds is more subjective and more unpredictable. Our auditory sensory and perceptual systems are not like oscilloscopes. It is like saying that additives can't improve the taste of water, only degrade it.

There may be some other change effected by the external DAC such as voltage level. So be it. It sounds better to me. It would be nice to know exactly what the factors are, but that is unlikely without some sophisticated mechanism of assessment.

What is in effect during various flavors of "Direct" depends upon the AVR's implementation. I suggest you ask in the thread dedicated to yours (I keep getting asked to leave threads when I post off-topic info so am trying to stay in this one, at least a little). Room correction is always done in the digital domain, or at least I have not seen a modern pure-analog version. Adjusting time and phase is hard without a DSP.

Depends upon what you mean by "improve" and "degrade". Room correction can certainly give you a flatter frequency response and better time-domain response, for instance.

Technically, EQ is also electronics, even if you use a passive EQ. And even passive EQ can add all sorts of "bad" artifacts.

There are all sorts of reasons an external DAC might help, or hurt, but I really think such a discussion is outside the scope of this thread.

I think we're going to need to compare notes- as my pending system is very similar (cabinets veneer completed for my mains) . I have SS8s with a SSC in production, with a 15" Salk Rythmik, and a pair of SongSurrounds, plus a pair of WOW1s added in (planned for zone 2 or rear surround). I've also got the 4311 that I'll be using for control.

I may patch in my trusty old Hafler 500 for some short term experimentation, but have planned on picking up a multichannel Wyred 4 Sound for long term use. The reviews and quiet cool running are plusses for me. Still continuing the research for now.

I'll plan to keep an eye on your progress!
Ben

I'm going to be running:
- 2 SS8s
- HT2C (my combo tv stand/AV shelving can't hold the weight of a SSC)
- 4 OMD-5s (side/rear)
- 2 Rythmik F15HP subs
- Denon 4311CI as the pre-amp
- HTPC as the media source (well, and a cable box, PS3, and Xbox 360)


As for the amp, after the discussions above, I'm thinking:
- leave the 4 OMD-5s on the receiver
- And either:
- 3 Emotiva XPA-1s
- a wyredforsound 3x500W
- a d-sonic 3x500W (or there is a used one I was pointed at that is 3x500, 2x250, which would likely work)

The Emotiva & W4S are about the same price (maybe 10% more for the emotiva). The emotiva would up the electricity bill more... I have no idea what sonic differences there would be between the emotiva & the w4s...

Anyway, I guess all this amp talk is getting a bit off topic, so I'll shut up now .

Meijas'comments struck me as clinically polite.any idea how long he stayed?

I'll defer to Nuances better hearing if that is what he heard, but I honestly didn't feel there was enough difference to really notice, but he's def a more critical listener.

The D-Sonic Amp to me is more then adequate for my needs, but if your a super critical listener I would suggest a side by side.
To be perfectly honest everyones system setup is different and what they become accustomed to becomes their standard. I don't have the time nor ability to do alot of critical listening that many others can and do....

My biggest thought on all this, is that your amp will be far less of difference in sound compared to the biggest and most crutial choice you have already made and that is buying the SoundScapes. They are the biggest leap to the best possible sound you could get - Congrats.

Again, good luck on your choice....

I'm not sure how to figure out what suits me best... do all of the above offer free in-home trial?

What I'm doing now is basically a bunch of "X vs Y" searches and reading posts... but yeah, listening would be good.

Nuance will lend you his amps for a month while your playing trial and error....

He's a super nice guy that way.....

One last question Nuance (well, for now... :-P):

Have you demo'd Emotiva XPA-1s in your system (or anywhere)? Curious if your recommendations of W4S/Parasound are because you've heard & liked those, but haven't heard the Emotiva, or if you have heard it and liked W4S/Parasound better.

If you have heard it, do you have any comments on what the differences were?

Since we're talking about nice guys, can I borrow your subs for a month?

I'm playing tri...er..I just want your subs.

Ok I lied--I have another question.

How do I determine whether I want class A/B vs a class D amp?

I mean, I know class D is more efficient and will save on the electric bill--and I've read that A/B 'sound better' or something, but I'm not sure what the sonic differences are, in general, between class A/B vs class D.

I would be interested to know what people think about this too, especially if there is real data showing any difference vs. just personal experience.

Agreed - well played indeed....


Morik
Before I moved to the Wyred amp for my system, I had a Rotel 1095, 200x5 A/B amp.... It was smooth powerful and sounded pretty darn good. drawback was it was in my console and got very very warm. I had to use fans in there to circulate the hot air out in order to keep it from tripping itself.

After moving to the Wyred unit, there were absolutely no heat issues whatsoever - and the SQ to me improved to less veiled, and the midrange seemed to lose the muddy aspect if only slightly, upper end was much cleaner with the delicate notes of symbols, high piano key strokes, triangles becoming more intricate. What I take from the move is the Wyred / Class D amps, have much better, cleaner, more transparent control of the full range they are amplifying.

Also I recall you being concerned about the dry/sterile comments coming from those about the Bel Canto's - which may have been attributed to the early models, but as time moved on the improvements made to the newest iterations of the B&O Ice Modules have more then proved themselves as being spectacular in performance and SQ.
Our own Kal Rubinson (writer/forum member) has owned / ownes?!?! the older and newest Bel Canto amp for his personal rig with the B&W 800D's - You can find his review here, he most certainly is a far better writer then us all. Surely with all the other products he has avail to him he must see something of value in the Ice Amps... which are the same modules as the Wyred and D-Sonic products as well.... http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/bel_canto_ref1000m_monoblock_power_amplifier/index.html

Not trying to come off as a fanboy, they are just really good amps IMO, and I'm not much of one to post up magazine reviews, but Kal's reviews are something that I can follow pretty well with trust. I'm sure others here will agree with his knowledge base and contributions on this forum.

Here is my sub build for a good laugh for you guys.... http://www.avsforum.com/t/1266665/warpdrvs-dual-opposed-18-lmss-the-xlerators
Edited by Warpdrv - 10/17/12 at 3:12pm

That is a gigantic set of subs. And in the 3rd picture they look like washing machines, or dryers.

I also use a Wyred StI 500 with the SS8's. The sound is clean & dynamic & Iwould not change it for anything, I can recommend the combo.

I am currently doing my homework on my future audio purchases. I have decided to go with the Salk SS10's, but beyond this, I am lost and am wondering if some of you good people could point me in the right direction. The first thing that I have been looking at is active vs. passive crossovers. Looking at the pro's vs. con's of a the different setups, it seems to me that an active setup would allow me to squeeze every single drop of performance out of the SS10's, not to say that there is anything wrong with a passive system - but yes, I'm "that guy". For that role, I looked at several active XO systems and finally found the DEQX HDP-4.

So, lets say I purchase my SS10's with the option of using an active speaker management system. From my understanding these are 3 way speakers, and after looking at the back panel of the DEQX unit I see there is a Low, Mid and High 1 & 2 for a total of 6 outputs which would go to the amplifiers supplying those drivers with power. Low outputs to the bass drivers, mid outputs to the mid drivers, and high outputs to the tweeters - but what about subs? In this configuration it appears that I would need a second unit to manage the subs which seems pricey and even harder to implement. Am I missing something here, or am I looking at this all wrong?

The next thing to cover is amplifiers. I would assume using monoblocks to power each bass driver would be a must, but what about the mids and highs? Smaller monoblocks? Then we come to brands of amps...there are just so many to choose from and I am 100% lost on that one. Pricing WILL be a concern and I know you get what you pay for but at the same time I'm not trying to win any kind of competition, I just want a REALLY nice sound system that I can listen to and enjoy for many many years to come because the wife has already said that if I make a purchase of this size it will be my last purchase of that size for the foreseeable future. To give a little more detail, I'm legally blind and this will be my "car", so I want to make sure that I get the best price / performance ratio I can get without going "too cheap" if you know what I mean.

Thanks