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The Official Salk Sound Owner's And Discussion Thread - Page 279

post #8341 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

How does having your speaker with the tweeter to the inside or outside have anything to do with difraction?
I thought difraction has to do with the cabinet edges, im not sure that placing your speakers have anything to do with it.
Placing the tweeter off center has impact on diffraction.

Those are Jims words
post #8342 of 9127
How well does the standard Song Center tone and timber match the Raal ST?
post #8343 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

Those are Jims words

Offsetting the tweeter will produce different diffraction effects from each side--If you move the mic to the left, the response will not be the same as when you move the mic to the right. One of these postions may well be smoother than the other. So in theory, you want the tweeters placed so that the smoothest off-axis response is radiating to the center. Which will that be? I depends on the driver, the crossover frequency, and baffle width. There really isn't any one position that can always be considered superior. I wouldn't worry about it.
post #8344 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

How well does the standard Song Center tone and timber match the Raal ST?


Why would anyone want a front stage that didn't match ? Surrounds are not that important unless your listening to multi ch
post #8345 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

Why would anyone want a front stage that didn't match ? Surrounds are not that important unless your listening to multi ch

Uh--people who really don't want to spend another $400 if they don't have to. I personally think the RAAL is something of a waste on a center channel. You might even prefer the slightly more forward midtreble presentation you get with the dome on a speaker that will spend most of its time reproducing dialog.
post #8346 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

Offsetting the tweeter will produce different diffraction effects from each side--If you move the mic to the left, the response will not be the same as when you move the mic to the right. One of these postions may well be smoother than the other. So in theory, you want the tweeters placed so that the smoothest off-axis response is radiating to the center. Which will that be? I depends on the driver, the crossover frequency, and baffle width. There really isn't any one position that can always be considered superior. I wouldn't worry about it.

i switched my left speaker to the right on my ST that used to have the tweeter outward. It seems like the center image is slightly more focus but i cant tell there is a big difference. Playing with toe in have greater impact on the sound. For now i will leave the speaker as is, too lazy to move them back.
post #8347 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

Why would anyone want a front stage that didn't match ? Surrounds are not that important unless your listening to multi ch

I don't even have a center channel. xD

Until my AE woofers get to Dennis, I'm using the BS-22 as left, right and center! tongue.gif

When my AE woofers do get to Dennis, followed by the completed speaker arriving at Jared's (me) I'll be using the towers as a L,R, and C until I have enough cash/time to design a pair of rears and a center. I might use a regular tweeter for the center as apposed to Bob's (CSS) Planar 2. *shrugs*
post #8348 of 9127
Yeah...am trying to balance budget with over kill.
Edited by Newbie01 - 3/15/13 at 7:38pm
post #8349 of 9127
Fun..a double post.
post #8350 of 9127
Everyone's entitled to their opinion I don't feel I wasted my money on a Raal for my center
post #8351 of 9127
The money would be better spend on a 3 way center even if is a hiquphon
Edited by RicardoJoa - 3/15/13 at 8:12pm
post #8352 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

Everyone's entitled to their opinion I don't feel I wasted my money on a Raal for my center

Well, I'm not saying the RAAL version is shabby. In my own setup, I reverse the inconsistency--I have Hiquphon domes on the mains, and an LCY ribbon on the center. My only complaint is the shortage of movies I want to watch.
post #8353 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

Well, I'm not saying the RAAL version is shabby. In my own setup, I reverse the inconsistency--I have Hiquphon domes on the mains, and an LCY ribbon on the center. My only complaint is the shortage of movies I want to watch.

My only complaint is the shortage of movies I want to watch. Please Explain
post #8354 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

My only complaint is the shortage of movies I want to watch. Please Explain

He was just being funny! He's apparently picky about the movies he watches!

Watch The Big Lebowski, Dennis! wink.gif
post #8355 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post

He was just being funny! He's apparently picky about the movies he watches!

Watch The Big Lebowski, Dennis! wink.gif

For the 7th time?
post #8356 of 9127
You say that as if it's too many times! tongue.gif I've seen it a good 10 times, myself. biggrin.gif
post #8357 of 9127
I set all my speakers up with a SPL meter until I get the birds outside so I can run audyssey my 1 parrot has the test tone down 100%

I set them all to 75db and my center and sub 3db higher do you guys run the center hotter ? also do you use 80hz for all speakers
post #8358 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

Uh--people who really don't want to spend another $400 if they don't have to. I personally think the RAAL is something of a waste on a center channel. You might even prefer the slightly more forward midtreble presentation you get with the dome on a speaker that will spend most of its time reproducing dialog.
Well if you listen to multi-channel music I think you want the center to just as good as L\R.
I also think there is a misconception about the center channel in film soundtracks, it does much more than just dialog.
That said, I'm not sure if many people could blindly pick between a RAAL, a LCY or a Hiquphon in L/C/R scenario but I'm sure I'll get lambasted for that statement. smile.gif

I've found a huge factor in dialog intelligibility is having a quiet room and obviously proper calibration and setup.
post #8359 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

I set all my speakers up with a SPL meter until I get the birds outside so I can run audyssey my 1 parrot has the test tone down 100%

I set them all to 75db and my center and sub 3db higher do you guys run the center hotter ? also do you use 80hz for all speakers
Nope, never.
I run the surrounds a tad hotter for soundtracks though.

80Hz for the sub xover I assume?

That's the classic starting point and you can do worse but it is generally speaking the best bet.
post #8360 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

Uh--people who really don't want to spend another $400 if they don't have to. I personally think the RAAL is something of a waste on a center channel. You might even prefer the slightly more forward midtreble presentation you get with the dome on a speaker that will spend most of its time reproducing dialog.
Dennis,

Is the CC just for dialogue, or is it an integral part of the front soundstage? In my experience, it is most definitely the latter. In fact, a CC *identical* to the L/R's is the "gold standard." It's how recording studios and movie theaters are setup. Is there some reason the CC is less important in a Home Theater than in the place the content was recorded, or the place it was recorded for? So what if the CC spends most of it's life producing dialogue? When it's called upon to do some heavy lifting, it needs to be just as capable as the L/R's, at least IMO.

If a sound effect is recorded across the entire front soundstage, or if it pans "through" the soundstage, isn't it just as important for it to sound the same coming from the CC as it does from the L/R's? For example, if a truck is moving left to right on the video image, who wants the truck to sound like a truck on the left, a Honda with a coffee can muffler in the middle, and a truck again on the right? It should sound like a truck all the way across. The best possible chance it has of sounding the same as it moves from speaker to speaker to speaker is for all the speakers to be identical. Short of being identical, they should all have a close tonal/timbre-match, a close output match and they should all be at the same height as the L/R's. If you've never experienced a CC with the aforementioned characteristics, you definitely need to experience a properly designed and installed CC. If this is what you think a CC ought to be, it's no wonder that you place so little value on it:



Here is what a "proper" front soundstage should look like:



and what it should look like with the "display" in place:



(BTW, I am neither a Philharmonic nor a Salk owner. I was asked a question about CC's via PM by another member who owns your Phil2's, and he referred to your belief that spending a lot of money on a CC was "overkill." I thought I would respond here as it's an interesting discussion.)

Craig
post #8361 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Well if you listen to multi-channel music I think you want the center to just as good as L\R.
I also think there is a misconception about the center channel in film soundtracks, it does much more than just dialog.
That said, I'm not sure if many people could blindly pick between a RAAL, a LCY or a Hiquphon in L/C/R scenario but I'm sure I'll get lambasted for that statement. smile.gif

I've found a huge factor in dialog intelligibility is having a quiet room and obviously proper calibration and setup.

I'll give you the point on music tracks. On movies, I really hear mostly dialog out of my center channel. On those rare occasions when I can find movie I want to watch.
post #8362 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

I'll give you the point on music tracks. On movies, I really hear mostly dialog out of my center channel. On those rare occasions when I can find movie I want to watch.
Dennis, I think if you posted a list of your recently watched films we could get an idea of your taste.
We may be able to give you a hand.
post #8363 of 9127
I'm hopeless. Short attention span. What was the question?
post #8364 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

For example, if a truck is moving left to right on the video image, who wants the truck to sound like a truck on the left, a Honda with a coffee can muffler in the middle, and a truck again on the right?

Firstly, this is a ridiculously oversimplified scenario! A pair of Phil 3s and a Bose 201 would have a drastically different timbre--it would be noticeable! Using a dome instead of ribbon would be barely noticeable for movies...

Secondly, centers tend to sound a bit different than their FS counterparts. They tend to roll-off bass much earlier, and they sometimes sound boxy. Especially if in a cabinet or close to a wall. Not to mention the MTM vs WTMW. A dome instead of a ribbon is a perfectly reasonable and intelligent trade-off. Personally, I would opt for the ribbon just in case I wanted to get into 5 channel music--future proofing, but if movies were my only concern I wouldn't waste my money!
post #8365 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

What do you have for speakers now
I bought the SCST's. Love them.
post #8366 of 9127
The issue of mixing tweeters in a home theater system is often the subject of questions we receive. Here is our take:

The role of a center channel in a home theater system is more than just a speaker used to reproduce dialogue. It handles all sound that should be centered on the screen and could easily be considered the single most important speaker in a home theater system.

In an ideal world, all three front speakers should be EXACTLY the same. Of course, in many setups this is not practical or even possible. A horizontal center is often the only viable option. But even in this case, we feel the drivers should be the same or as similar as possible. This includes the tweeters. Why? Because sound is often panned from one side to the other across the front of the room. In this case, if the tweeters are not the same, the timbre of the sound will change as it passes through the center and this can be distracting.

Think about it this way: If dome tweeters sounded exactly the same as ribbon tweeters, people would not opt for more expensive ribbon tweeters in their main speakers. Ribbon tweeters do impart a different character to the sound. So if the goal is to have seamless sound across the front of the room, it is best to utilize the same driver types in the front three speakers.

Surround speakers, on the other hand, are not as critical. In most cases, they carry sound effects and ambient sound. Any timbre differences are more difficult to discern. The exception might be multi-channel music where instruments are actually placed on the rear channels. But this is quite rare and, even in these cases, timbre differences may not be noticeable since these instruments are rarely panned to other speakers.

If customers want to save money by using a dome in a center channel and ribbon tweeters in their mains, we are happy to build this combination. And I'm certain that many people would find this a perfectly acceptable combination. But we never specifically recommend it. In fact, if budget is an issue, we usually recommend customers at least consider using a "phantom" center channel (no center channel) as an alternative option. While the center image will not be locked on the screen when seated off center, at least the timbre of the center channel image will not vary from the mains. And some may find this less distracting than a difference in timbre across the front of the room.

- Jim
post #8367 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post

Firstly, this is a ridiculously oversimplified scenario! A pair of Phil 3s and a Bose 201 would have a drastically different timbre--it would be noticeable! Using a dome instead of ribbon would be barely noticeable for movies...
I guess you've never heard a fully integrated front sound stage with 3 *identical* speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post

Secondly, centers tend to sound a bit different than their FS counterparts. They tend to roll-off bass much earlier, and they sometimes sound boxy.
Exactly! That's the problem. Small MTM centers sound DIFFERENT than the L/R's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post

Especially if in a cabinet or close to a wall.
Again... exactly my point. Take a speaker that sounds different and then mount it badly and it will be even worse. The CC should be identical to the L/R's and mounted at the same height. See the pic I posted above of the 3 identical front speakers. That is a proper front soundstage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post

Not to mention the MTM vs WTMW. A dome instead of a ribbon is a perfectly reasonable and intelligent trade-off. Personally, I would opt for the ribbon just in case I wanted to get into 5 channel music--future proofing, but if movies were my only concern I wouldn't waste my money!
As I said, you probably have never heard a fully integrated front sound stage with 3 identical speakers behind an AT screen.

One additional benefit of the above arrangement is that dialogue is actually locked to the on-screen image better when the CC is behind the screen. When the CC is above or below the screen, the dialogue originates from a point not locked to the image. I find that very distracting.

Craig
post #8368 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsalk View Post

The issue of mixing tweeters in a home theater system is often the subject of questions we receive. Here is our take:

The role of a center channel in a home theater system is more than just a speaker used to reproduce dialogue. It handles all sound that should be centered on the screen and could easily be considered the single most important speaker in a home theater system.

In an ideal world, all three front speakers should be EXACTLY the same. Of course, in many setups this is not practical or even possible. A horizontal center is often the only viable option. But even in this case, we feel the drivers should be the same or as similar as possible. This includes the tweeters. Why? Because sound is often panned from one side to the other across the front of the room. In this case, if the tweeters are not the same, the timbre of the sound will change as it passes through the center and this can be distracting.

Think about it this way: If dome tweeters sounded exactly the same as ribbon tweeters, people would not opt for more expensive ribbon tweeters in their main speakers. Ribbon tweeters do impart a different character to the sound. So if the goal is to have seamless sound across the front of the room, it is best to utilize the same driver types in the front three speakers.

Surround speakers, on the other hand, are not as critical. In most cases, they carry sound effects and ambient sound. Any timbre differences are more difficult to discern. The exception might be multi-channel music where instruments are actually placed on the rear channels. But this is quite rare and, even in these cases, timbre differences may not be noticeable since these instruments are rarely panned to other speakers.

If customers want to save money by using a dome in a center channel and ribbon tweeters in their mains, we are happy to build this combination. And I'm certain that many people would find this a perfectly acceptable combination. But we never specifically recommend it. In fact, if budget is an issue, we usually recommend customers at least consider using a "phantom" center channel (no center channel) as an alternative option. While the center image will not be locked on the screen when seated off center, at least the timbre of the center channel image will not vary from the mains. And some may find this less distracting than a difference in timbre across the front of the room.

- Jim
Excellent post Jim, (although I prefer to use similar speakers in my surround positions as well.)
post #8369 of 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Excellent post Jim, (although I prefer to use similar speakers in my surround positions as well.)

Yes, this is obviously ideal.

- Jim
post #8370 of 9127
I spent the morning watching a couple movies and playing some SACD my everything seems to blend just fine , I'm using the Raal in the front stage and Fountek NeoCD3.0 Ribbon Tweeters in the surrounds all speakers have Seas ER15RLY Woofers

I had to drop the surrounds 2db that's about it
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