The Official Salk Sound Owner's And Discussion Thread - Page 4

Hi Don't know when it is, but your center was what I had in mind. Assumsing I can fix it. Thanks!

It will be on its way shortly

Dennis

Pete, the guy from Baltimore with the B&W 602s, who wants to hear the SongTowers, says he can come down in early or mid January. That's well after the holidays. Hopefully your concert schedule will be lighter by then.

I'll keep you posted when I know more.

Richard

Well I have been breaking these babies in for the last week, I leave the system run while I am at work. Jim told me they were probably 95% broke in when they shipped.

The last 2 days they really started to open up. The soundstage fills the front of my room from floor to ceiling. If you close your eyes you can see the stage and musicians. I can't believe it.

When I first listened I knew it was a step up over my previous speakers. They were gutted Onix Ref 2's with new drivers and crossovers from Danny Ritchie (GR Research) and they were great. But after 100+ hours on the Salks there is no comparison.

Jim you need to tell buyers these need break in.

And to top it all of these are gorgeous to look at they could be, no they are the finest piece of furniture I have.

Thanks Jim and Company

Bill -

Very glad to hear things are working out well for you. We really enjoyed working on your project.

As for your comment on break-in, I wrote a little repsonse and posted it on your thread on our circle on audiocircle.com. But I thought for the benefit of those on AVS, I might copy it here. Here was my response as originally posted:

Break-in is an interesting topic I am asked about all the time.

I certainly have had many customers comment that our speakers really "open up" after 100 - 200 hours of "break-in." So obviously something is going on here. But what is it?

From all the research I have done, I think I can safely say the following in regard to the drivers themselves. There are two types of performance changes drivers go through with use. The first is mechanical in nature. From everything I have read and the experience of many designers in measuring drivers, this appears to take place in the first 1/2 hour or so and any performance changes after that are very unlikely due to mechanical break-in.

The second is thermal break-in. It takes a very short while for drivers to reach operating temperature when starting cold. This happens every time you turn your system on and start playing music. But this thermal "break-in" happens very quickly.

Based on the above, I would have to conclude that any changes that occur over 100 hours or so are not due to changes in driver performance. Which leaves only crossover performance as a possible physical explanation.

I have never done testing in this regard and have not run across any valid studies on the matter. But it is certainly possible that capacitors do become more efficient in charging and discharging with an extended break-in period. This is pure speculation on my part, but if they do, the increased speed would most likely be noticeable at the top end of the audio spectrum resulting in more micro detail.

I have had the opportunity to A/B new HT3's (after about a 20-minute driver break-in period) with HT3's that were played extensively and, try as I may, I have never been able to discern any significant performance differences. That only thing I have noticed is that the bass quality seems to improve as the rubber surround on the woofer loosens up a bit. However, this would not account for the reports I have had about the speakers "opening up" over time.

I do not doubt that people are hearing what they are hearing and their experiences are real. But I suspect that as they spend more time listening to new speakers, they become more tuned in to subtle performance characteristics they did not notice at first. To the extent that this theory has any validity, it would certainly apply to a speaker like the HT3 which is quite a bit more detailed than the speakers any given listener was likely to have prior experience with.

As I have written in the past, we all have "reference" standards as to what the ideal speaker should sound like and it is based on prior experience. There are many people who are very impressed with the sound quality of a Bose-type speaker system. But as they are exposed to higher and higher quality systems and spend more time with them, their point of reference changes. Some would say they become spoiled (I know I have with the HT3's). We have all probably experienced this first-hand.

I have always felt that this built-in frame of reference changes over time and that much of what is often described as "break-in" is related to this effect. Whether I am right or wrong about this is certainly debatable.

From my perspective, regardless of what the source of this break-in phenomenon is, it is real as far as the listener is concerned. And as long as they are extremely happy with the turn of events, that is all that really matters. Whatever the source of this phenomena, I know that if someone is happy with the speakers the first time they hear them, as with fine wine, things can only get better with time.

- Jim

On a completely different note, I was asked some time ago not to post pictures or links on AVS Forum. I don't know if that policy would apply to an "Official Salk Owner's and Discussion" thread or not. But I certainly do not want to break any rules. So...

For those who may be interested, I posted some pictures of my latest personal pair of "custom" SongTower QWT's on our circle on audiocircle.com this morning. The thread is called "Custom "smokey silver" SongTower QWT's".

If, in the future, I find out it would be OK to post pictures in this thread, I will certainly be willing to do so. Until then, I'll just continue posting them on audiocircle.com.

- Jim

Jim those speakers are incredible looking!! Wow. Here is an idea for you, maybe you should build yourself a pair with an unattractive cabinet? Then at least you might get to hold onto them for a little longer...

Or--you could let me build you a pair.

Hello,

I am considering the following speakers...

Salk HT3, Focal 1027 Be, Revel F52, Dynaudio Contour 5.4/C1, Dali Helicon 400/800

I realize they are at different price points but I need to consider the value and WAF.

I would appreciate it if you guys shared your opinions on any of these speakers.

Thank you

Dennis -


I may have to take you up on that. That particular pair will now be on their way to the Big Apple. And I have to go back to work on a new pair fror myself.

- Jim

So much for your new personal pair Jim...

I've listened to all of them.

Salk HT3 is more transparent than any of these speakers that you mentioned. At the same time, the HT3 also have better bass (more punchy & authority) than any of these speakers.

But, if you're looking for a more forgiving speakers (high frequency roll-off, more midrange bloom), then the Revel F52 or Dynaudio Contour may suit your taste better.

[quote=jsalk;12473643]Dennis -



"I may have to take you up on that. That particular pair will now be on their way to the Big Apple. And I have to go back to work on a new pair fror myself."

Great. I'll get started. Did I mention that my 8th grade shop project was a 3-leg stool that wobbled? The instructor was a medal-of-honor army captain in Korea, but he still cried.

[quote=Dennis Murphy;12475508]
Dennis, you know you might be exactly the right person to build speakers for blind listening tests

Is there anyone in GA that has Songtowers?

Dennis,

My deal?....I promise I'll give them a lengthier, in-depthier (), very greatest written review for the same price!

Nuance, I thought since you started the thread you were entitled to a free pair

Hey--If I could make even a really bad HT3 cabinet, I'd build it for myself. I only have one, and that was thanks to the generosity of Jim, who repaired a cabinet that had been damaged in shipping and gave it to me. That's why I can never comment on how well the HT3's image!

I may have missed this in this thread, but is anyone using the SongTowers with the SongCenter?

I've read a couple posts where people were using the SongTowers for HT, but weren't using a center. Since the majority of sound in a movie comes from the center channel, I will almost assuredly get one when I upgrade my speakers. But I'm curious regarding people's opinions on the SongCenter.

Thanks.

There have only been a few SongCenter speakers shipped so far. So you may not get an answer to your question. However, it is an easy question to answer since it is basically the same speaker in a smaller ported or sealed cabinet. So the performance would be the same as the SongTowers themselves.

One of the SongTower's strengths is the quality of the midrange. This makes it an excellent candidate for a center channel since intelligibility would be very high.

I hope this helps.

- Jim

Thanks Jim,

If I was to use the SongCenter in multi-channel audio, would the SongCenter blend nicely with the SongTowers, despite the smaller cabinet and less bass response? And would using the SongCenters in the rear, be overkill, if I was using them for both HT and multi-channel audio?

Lastly, I see that you can get the SongCenter in a sealed or ported cabinet. Can you tell a difference in the sound between the two cabinets (sealed and ported)? If so, which cabinet would you recommend?

Thanks in advance for your help.

The SongCenter uses the same drivers in the same arrangement and is voice essentially the same. So it would blend quite seamlessly with the SongTowers. The bass is not as extended but is still quite good. In fact, most speakers using drivers such as these use normal ported cabinets. And if you are using a sub, you would cross at about 80Hz anyway, so it wouldn't be an issue.


Not at all. In fact, we have recently decided that when we post the page for SongSurrounds on our web site (probably in a week or so), we will likely show vertically mounted SongCenters for use as surround speakers as well.


The only major difference is bass extension. I would go ported, all things being equal. You can always stuff the port and used them sealed. If you are using a sub, sealed speakers are a little easier to integrate because the roll-off on the bottom end is more gradual and a better match for the roll-off on the top end of the subwoofer. Also, if you mount speakers in a cabinet, you would certainly not want a ported speaker (unless you plugged the ports and used it in a sealed configuration). But as a stand-mounted speaker, ported would probably be preferable to most users.

I hope this answers your questions.

- Jim

Thanks in advance for your help.[/quote]

Jim, you make it sound like these are the same speaker above 80 Hz.

I thought TL cabinet design had distinct advantages (forgive my layman's description): it terminates the back wave and reduces interference. The ported design would have sound emanating from both the front wave and the back port - potentially causing out of phase reflections off a room back wall. The unterminated reflections inside the ported cabinet could also potentially interfere with the speaker cone movement. Does this stuff only matter below 80 Hz?

So while sounding similar, I would have guessed the SongTowers still had advantages over the SongCenter.

That being said, I still ordered a SongCenter because I can't manage an acoustically transparent screen. For HT I will cross everything over at 80 Hz to a sub. But for music I plan to disable the sub/center/surrounds and run only 2-channel to the SongTowers and hopefully enjoy clean and musical deep bass extension without worrying about sub integration and/or sub quality.

Hey, Dennis and Jim. I was turned on to your SongTowers by a guy on Asylum. First off, the speakers look fantastic. I was curious how you tackled the typical MTM horizontal center off-axis performance issue? I am currently running Sonus Faber with their center with a stacked tweeter and mid.

Also, curious if you could offer any kind of comparison between the SongTowers and the ProAc house sound? I had a pair of Studio 150s I was very happy with and was currently looking at their Studio 140.

Thanks!!
Kyle

I have listened to Proac briefly, not sure which model, but it's bigger than Studio 140. My recollection is that ProAct has very sweet high and polite sounding.

The SongTowers will give you a very sweet high too, but 'thicker' midrange and more bass slam.

Hi I had a pair of Proac Tablettes for many years, and liked them except for a slightly hot mid-treble. I haven't heard more recent models, but all of the frequency response plots I've seen in Stereophile for post-tablette Proacs have a very broad "U" shape to them. The midrange is a little recessed in relation to the midbass and upper treble. That tends to give a spacious sound on sime music, but also robs you of some detail and presence on more heavily orchestrated fare. Anyhow, I have a lot of respect for Proac (and British speakers in general). On the other hand, I don't believe that Proac uses any drivers or crossover topologies that aren't available to DIY'ers, and I strongly suspect that the Salks are better values.

Ooops--I forgot to answer your question about horizontal off-axis response. I assume you're referring to the SongCenter, since that wouldn't be an issue with the vertically oriented SongTower. There's nothing you can do to eliminate the issue entriely unless you're using a tweeter that can be crossed at 500 Hz (not bloody likely). But the SongCenter has fairly small woofers and a tweeter with a small face plate, so the center-to-center distances between the woofers and each woofer and the tweeter are not as large as they would be with a 1" tweet and/or 6.5" woofers. To put the issue in perspective, the dip in the upper midrange that occurs as you move off axis is nothing like the dip in the highs you get in, say, a large electrostatic panel when you move off axis. The change in balance is much more subtle. I have SongTowers in my living room, and I spend as much time listening to them standing up as I do sitting down. They are perfectly enjoyable standing up ( and I think other SongTower owners will back me up on this). They just don't have quite as much presence. This will be equally true of the SongCenter when you move one seating position to the right or left horizontally. There will be a change, but you might not even notice it unless someone alerted you to the phenomenon. Of course, the "problem" can be eliminated entirely by ordering the V3 center channel, which is a 3-way with the stacked tweeter-mid configuration. Contrary to some reports, the V3 center is not the size of Nebraska. It's barely larger than Iowa.