Magnavox 537, 535, 533, 515, 513, 2160A, 2160, 2080 & Philips 3576, 3575 - Page 625

Yes, I did try this. Also, the 2160A's problem is BURNING to DVD+r and DVD-r, but it has NO problem reading these formats. It burns DVD+RW freely.

Regards,

Jim

Hi Ron,

The 2160A's problem is BURNING to DVD+r and DVD-r (regardless of quality of media), but it has NO problem reading these formats. It burns DVD+RW freely.

Jim

Hi Ron,

Asking you to speculate but why do you suppose such a board would accompany a replacement burner?

Jim

well, unless there's some obvious connection issue with the ribbon cable between the main pcb and the DVD drive unit, that sure sounds like the optics have a problem.

possible causes after confirming good ribbon cable connection -

1 - burning LED is weak from heavy usage ( probably replace DVD drive unit )
2 - lenses between LED and disc are dirty ( 91% isopropyl alcohol & a cotton swab - be gentle )

i would certainly try cleaning the optics first... it doesn't take much dust or gunk for these kinds of hiccups to occur.

Function on original DVD drives is missing on (available/less costly) newer/replacement drive models, replaced by equivalent function on PCB, possibly DRM-related?

my guess is that these are sold / shipped as a set in order to guarantee proper functionality across ' build dates ' ... eg, to ensure latest firmware, as well as compatibility with ' power ' issues ... at any given point in time, the drive units could be updated with different ( read, later model ) spec'd power requirements, or minor interface i/o differences. in addition, the companion PCB is probably calibrated ( eg, for given discs, much as the maintenance SKIP operation to ' re-calibrate ' ) . things like calibration of reading and writing power ranges, etc... unlike the HDD units, which simply have standardized digital interfaces, the DVD's are just ' dumb mechanisms ', with truly varying electrical requirements in terms of spindle motor power, stepper motor power and response time, and LED read and write currents required...

to my way of thinking, there is sufficient reason for Funai to want to ship the things as a set in order to minimize or eliminate problems caused by different production runs. after all, remember that these things are made in aisa, and the actual costs for a board are minimal, compared to going through lots of ' non-production ' based overhead that might be associated with the minor discrepencies that can occur across production runs.

it's kind of equivalent to replacing the water pump on a vehicle ( whether it needs one or not ) when you do a top job on an engine... since the thing is already ' splayed out ' , might as well toss in the water pump while you're at it, or you'll just repeat the cost of tearing down again when the pump goes 3 months later...

rgds,
ron g

Hi Ron,
1) While the 2160A was a refurb (with 20 HDD hours on the unit when bought) it's never been able to burn a DVD+r (maybe why it was a refurb in the first place).
2) I have cleaned it and then cleaned it again to no avail.

Am currently burning to +RW and then copying to +R on PC.

Jim

just for grins, what kind of failure mode is indicated when an attempt is made to burn a regular DVD... does the machine finish the ' reading ' process when you insert a DVD into the thing ?

if ' reading ' completes, when you switch to the blank DVD, does the display indicate a ' remaining time ' value or just ' dashes ' ?

is there anything set funny in the configuration area, such as ' protect disk ' or some such thing ?

rg
======

Ron,


Everything proceeds normally for the first few seconds of recording and then on the screen:

Recording Error


Can not record on this disc

E 3 54040990

'Protect Disc' is not on.

P.S. What do you think of the 'double fix' solution (assuming the firmware resides on the companion PCB)?

Jim

hi jimlely

here's a quick quote from another website about how these things work... you'll note in the quoted info that the mechanisms used for DVD R versus DVD RW are different...

Information:

Write once formats use a single write laser to change a dye layer affecting the opacity of the dye. The laser darkens spots on the recording layer (dye layer) to record information.

Rewritable media use a phase change recording layer where the write laser changes the polarization of the recording layer (usually a metallic material) by crystallizing it. In order to erase this layer so new data can be added, an erase laser (usually the recording laser refocused to be wider then that needed to record data) is used. This erasing function heats the layer causing it to become amorphous again as it was in the blank state.

For our purposes, the above jibberish basically means that the Write Laser may not be being supplied sufficient ' current ' in order to accomplish the writing process, while it might be sufficient to write to an RW disc.

It points to the possibility that either the Write Laser is bad, or may be weak, requiring more current to be supplied in order to successfully burn a DVD R disc.

If the trouble is a ' current ' issue, something as simple as a bad resistor could be the cause of this. now, i don't know specifically where any of the passive components might be located in this unit. could be a passive part on the little PCB in the drive unit, or possibly somewhere on the main ( companion ) PCB where ' write current ' would originate.

Also, from the above, it would seem that there is more than a single lens in the optics assembly, and the lens or lenses involved in the writing process might not be easily visible ( IOW, not just the little guy you see when you look at the optics from above ).
a lens ( or lenses ) could be located beneath the surface of the visible optics area, making it difficult to get at and clean.

if you're game to tinker a bit, you might want to grab a magnifying glass and try to peer into the optics carefully to see if you can locate something beyond what you might be able to see by just doing a cursory view...

rgds,
ron g

I just hope they keep supplying parts. In consumer electronics it seems very shortly after the product is discontinued the mfg dumps most of the parts on third parties.

I had a at most 2 year old Sanyo 4370 GPS and the battery died in it. I could not find a battery from even a third party for it.

ok, i presume that this thing DOES read and play a store bought re-recorded DVD.

regarding the error being displayed, it does indicate that you've most likely got a Write Laser issue, be it a weak laser, or insufficient write current due to a bad passive component responsible for providing that current ( ok, possibly a transistor as well ) ...

while write current originates in raw form from the unit's power supply, it is passed to the burner unit VIA electronics on the companion PCB, and the companion PCB does whatever switching and conditioning might be necessary to supply that current to the burner unit's laser. the small pcb on the burner unit, itself, may also participate ( either passively or actively ) in the supply of write current to the laser.

again, for our purposes, it boils down to either cleaning a lens or replacing the burner unit. in the unlikely event that a component on the companion PCB is bad, the worst case scenario would be replacing the companion PCB.

i would await a possible confirmation from 234 that i am correct on the firmware issue, but assuming that i am, i believe you would probably fix the 2160 with the replacement burner unit, and your 513 with the replacement main PCB.

again, this presumes that the 513 DVD burner unit is a correct physical fit in the 2160 chassis. you should be able to tell by just removing the top cover. additionally, you should check the 2 ribbons connecting the DVD to the main pcb to ensure that these are the same.

in my case, i replaced my 3576 burner unit with a 513 burner unit and it worked flawlessly. note here that one of the ribbons was NOT identical, but was the same size. it was just missing an ' unused ' trace in the middle of the ribbon. i did not need to modify anything to implement the 513 burner in the 3576.

if you're handy with a screwdriver, you could confirm 2160 repair by temporarily swapping the burner unit from your 513 into the 2160 and doing a test burn before you go through an actual purchase.

it's pretty unlikely that you would damage anything by doing a quick test, as long as you're careful...

Great suggestions. The only downside is voiding my warranty on the 513 when I remove the cover which will be readily detectable.

Best, Jim

yes of course... that's the rub...

i tend to be a bit more adventureous with this stuff, but i can understand your hesitation...

if you want to protect your 513 warranty and just see if a 513 drive unit will solve your 2160 issue, i'd be happy to loan you my 513 DVD burner unit to do a quick test with, long as you promise to give it back....

not sure where you are geographically... i'm in Henderson, NV...

This is interesting to me. So, would that possibly mean that using RW media exclusively might extend the life of the burner, as it would use less power/current and thus less wear on the laser assembly? If so, that could be useful information to put into the help files on page one.

Or am I just reading too much into this?

Things to consider when thinking about removing the cover:
1-OEM warranty labor is only for 90 days. After that, labor is out of pocket for service center installation of parts, which are covered for a year.
2-I bought extended warranties from WalMart for my first 3 Funais. After 12 months, warranty service was necessary for my first 2160A, which had complete tuner failure. I called the warranty center and got permission to remove the cover, extract the HD, clone it to another HD as backup, then put it back together before shipping to the service center.
3-The service center made it work as it should, but returned it with half the cover screw holes stripped and screws missing.
4-You bought it, which makes it your personal property.

well, i honestly don't know, dare2be. my sense is that if there was a difference, it would probably be minimal...

the laser diodes, themselves, are just that, diodes... a semi-conductor...
semi-conductors typically are either ' broke ' or ' not broke ' . i don't have the experience to know whether or not a laser diode's emission characteristics actually change very much over time, but i cannot recall ever seeing a ' visible light ' LED get ' dimmer ' over time and use; only with changes in applied current have i seen that.

i'm not so sure that the difference ( if there is much ) in write current used for one versus the other, would represent a major difference in laser component life...

in our friend's case, i'm tending to think that a passive component ( like a resistor somewhere ) was probably close to the edge of acceptable tolerance, and simply changed value over time and use ( as resistors will ), resulting in higher resistance and, therefore, lower current being supplied.
going ' over the edge ' , as it were.

it's probably right on the edge somehow. probably just luck of the draw.

with these machines, you get into the laws of ' diminishing returns ' when deciding to troubleshoot to the component level. with the relatively inexpensive ' modules ', it becomes easier and quicker just to replace a module rather than spend the effort to locate the bum resistor...

i'd be surprised if using RW's versus R's would result in substantially greater ( if at all ) laser lifespan.

Not at all. My Pioneer 633 would be close to worthless if your observation weren't true. I have a 100% HSD success rate with undamaged RW media, but only about a 50% HSD success rate with TYG02 premium 8X write once media. On it whenever I get a write failure attempting HSD, I HSD the source recordings to RW, HSD them back to my Pioneer 460, and from there HSD to -R with a near 100% success rate, often to the very same disc that failed in the 633.

wajo makes a good point here... the diodes, themselves, are indeed built for the various power dissipations. the plastic they are encased in, however, as well as the plastic that the lenses are made of, are indeed subject to optical degradation due to heat. of course, we can't separate the silicon from the plastic, so the point is moot.

but he is absolutely correct, based on the numbers indicated in his reference link, since more power = more heat... would that they would just make them out of glass instead of plastic... that's probably the big secret eluded to for development... a cheap way to use glass... problem solved...

chuckle.

ron g

Thanks Wajo, I'm aware of that, I was just referring to the differences between R and RW, at the SAME speeds. rkg answered pretty much my curiosity in his following post.


You described the situation to my satisfaction, thank you.

The only major difference I see now between R and RW at the same speeds, and with all else being equal, that could affect laser life span is the RWs not needing to be finalized, which slightly reduces the amount of laser use time on RWs.

does your pioneer actually do an HSD dub from Disc to HDD ? i've not heard of that one... none of my 3576s, nor the 513, nor my older panny E95 ( i think ) will do that.... i'd love to be able to do that...

rg

Absolutely, though VR mode must have been used to make the disc to be able to HSD from disc to HD. There aren't very many things about the Pioneers that aren't better than the Funais or absent from the Funais, but new Pioneers can't be had any more. If they had continued to be available, I'd never have bought a 2nd Funai, and maybe not even a first.

Ron,

You are way too kind. Thank you for your generous offer but this would be too much of an imposition on you. I have a 515 that will be out of warranty in about a month which I can use.

Jim

Thanks


Thanks wajo for the link.

Wajo (or anyone else that knows),
I thought I saw something once about authoring a disc on a 2160 so that there is no menu - the disc just starts playing once the tray is closed. Assuming I didn't imagine this could you give me a link?

no imposition... i originally bought the thing to test in my 3576 so i would have a spare if the original ever went out and Funai discontinued the 3576 drives... so the drive unit is sitting in its box doing nothing at the moment... as long as you're careful with it and get it back to me in a timely manner, you're welcome to try it out.... it would be valuable to the folks on the thread to know if this drive will do ok in a 2160. if the drive works ok, and pending a possible confirm from 234 on FW being resident on the companion PCB, you'll have your fix...

pm me with an address and i'll get it out to you...

rg