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Magnavox 537, 535, 533, 515, 513, 2160A, 2160, 2080 & Philips 3576, 3575 - Page 65

post #1921 of 23784
10/6/08 at 6:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by video_guy View Post

Thanks wajo for quick reply. My problem is not aspect ratio. When I play pics, I need to put TV in 4:3. I get pic with correct aspect ratio and without black bands on top and bottom. My problem is that the pics are cut off about 5%.

After posting the question above, I did more gesearch (google research: just coined this word). I found that almost all TVs HDMI input do 5% overscan of HDMI source. Some TVs have option of switching it off some don't. Some have DVI option which do not do overscan. Some has neighter. Mine has DVI input setting. When I go back home today, I will try DVI and see if the pic is still clipped 5% from all sides.

Over scan may be one of the reason which I do not get as good a picture on HDMI from 3575 as I get when I tune 1080 channels directly on 1080p TV.

Well I will do some more experimentation and report here later next week.

When I set my TV to DVI, the TV showed the full picture. And also the quality improved. Now the DVDs and JPegs do not get clipped 5% from all sides.

So if you have TV which does overscan on HDMI (most of them do overscan) then either turn off overscan or set the I/P to DVI. Wajo another line item for your excellent guide.
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post #1922 of 23784
10/6/08 at 7:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

Thanks for posting this since the question on how best to set the dynamic duo up is important info to know.

Are you on cable or antenna?

If cable, what cableco and service level (basic, ext. basic, digital, etc.)?

Cox Cable in Kansas with expanded basic analog service. Only the local channels available in clear QAM, both digital and HD.
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post #1923 of 23784
10/6/08 at 7:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by video_guy View Post

When I set my TV to DVI, the TV showed the full picture. And also the quality improved. Now the DVDs and JPegs do not get clipped 5% from all sides.

So if you have TV which does overscan on HDMI (most of them do overscan) then either turn off overscan or set the I/P to DVI. Wajo another line item for your excellent guide.

Thanks! I'll add a note.
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post #1924 of 23784
10/6/08 at 9:52am
Thread Starter 
After checking the manuals, Member subeluvr noticed a couple of 2160 features that are diff. than the 3576 and weren't covered in the help files:
  1. The 2160 has a signal strength meter/indicator in its DISPLAY menu when tuned to a digital channel. It's far left in a NEW banner for digital channels replacing the "Guide" menu in the 3575/3576, which is the 1st menu screen when pressing INFO (or DISPLAY in the 2160). I'm wondering also if that means the 2160 Guide info is actually shown in the 2160, where my 3575's don't have any program info... the DISPLAY menu on a 2160 digital channel has a main title of "PROGRAM TITLE NAME" in the manual?
  2. The 2160 does NOT have an "HDD Indicator Light" like the 3576 to show HDD is actively playing or recording something? (Subeluvr doesn't have his 2160 yet, so can others confirm this?)
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post #1925 of 23784
10/6/08 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

Thanks! I'll add a note.

You can add somewhere here. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...5&postcount=11

Thanks.
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post #1926 of 23784
10/6/08 at 10:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by video_guy View Post

You can add somewhere here. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...5&postcount=11

I already added a brief description to the "Playback..." file here, bottom of page. Also changed the file title on that page and the list of subjects on Sticky pg 1.

Check that out and see if I got it right?
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post #1927 of 23784
10/6/08 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

I'm wondering also if that means the 2160 Guide info is actually shown in the 2160, where my 3575's don't have any program info... the DISPLAY menu on a 2160 digital channel has a main title of "PROGRAM TITLE NAME" in the manual?
[*]The 2160 does NOT have an "HDD Indicator Light" like the 3576 to show HDD is actively playing or recording something? (Subeluvr doesn't have his 2160 yet, so can others confirm this?)[/list]

Since I'm on analog cable there isn't any guide data on either the 3576 or 2160. The signal stregnth feature will be helpful. My signal stregnth mostly hangs in the upper 80's but it varies a lot.

There is no HDD indicator light on the 2160.
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post #1928 of 23784
10/6/08 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

I already added a brief description to the "Playback..." file here, bottom of page. Also changed the file title on that page and the list of subjects on Sticky pg 1.

Check that out and see if I got it right?

You got it right. But the DVI and overscan is not limited to jpeg etc. Even the DVD play and tuner o/p (i.e. TV) is affected in same way. Refer http://forum.videohelp.com/topic347605.html

Also when TV overscans, the picture quality goes down. Switch it off and see a improvement in PQ.
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post #1929 of 23784
10/6/08 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by subeluvr View Post

Does the red dot in the display "recording happening" for both the HDD and DVD?

The front panel display is the same on both units. I've never used the DVD recorder but the red indicator on the front display lights when recording to the HDD. What's missing on the 2160 is the blue light on the front panel that lights whenever the HDD is active, either recording or playback on the 3576.
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post #1930 of 23784
10/6/08 at 12:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by video_guy View Post

You got it right. But the DVI and overscan is not limited to jpeg etc. Even the DVD play and tuner o/p (i.e. TV) is affected in same way. Refer http://forum.videohelp.com/topic347605.html

Also when TV overscans, the picture quality goes down. Switch it off and see a improvement in PQ.

Check me out again cuz it got a little more "complicated"!
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post #1931 of 23784
10/6/08 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

Check me out again cuz it got a little more "complicated"!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

If you notice some "odd" playback issues when using HDMI or Component output, like poor quality or side bars that shouldn't be there, it could be caused by your TV's overscan function or DVI input setting.

Replace with the following:

If you notice some "odd" playback issues when using HDMI or Component output, like poor quality or picture being clipped (5-10%) from all sides, it could be caused by your TV's overscan function or HDMI input setting.

Also for using DVI, you will need to set 3575 to "RGB" and NOT "YCbCr".
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post #1932 of 23784
10/6/08 at 12:54pm
Wajo, rememvber, I had always complained that the picture quality of HD channels when tuned with 3575 is not as good compared to that of when tuned with TV. Now when I changed TV setting from HDMI to DVI, the PQ quality definitely improved alot and now the PQ with 3575 QAM's tuner is close to that of TV's tuner.

Also the PQ of DVD when played on 3575 via HDMI was already very good, but now on DVI (i.e. without overscan) is perfect. On HDMI it used to get clipped from sides, but I never noticed that.
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post #1933 of 23784
10/6/08 at 12:58pm
Thread Starter 
I'll be changing that para., but confirm for me that you have to be using the DVI connection for the DVI setting to have an effect... just checkin cuz I just assumed that... seemed "obvious"?

I'm interested also in the better PQ with your TV setting changed and may add a short note on that in the approp. subject.
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post #1934 of 23784
10/6/08 at 1:12pm
I now wonder just how much "slightly amplified" these units cable output is. Learning today about the 2160's signal strength meter allowed me to do a test.

I started with the 2160 first in series and the signal strength was ranging from 86 to 90. I then changed to have the 3576 first with it's "amplified" output going to the 2160. The signal strength dropped to the 78 to 82 range.

I'd sure like to see another dual user try this to confirm my findings but right now it looks to me like there would be no problem overpowering the tuner in either the second DVD/HDD recorder or TV hooking these things up in series.
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post #1935 of 23784
10/6/08 at 1:55pm
Thread Starter 
Tom, I've been ass-u-ming the 2160 also had an "active" (amp'd) coax circuit, but your results might suggest otherwise. Maybe you could do the active/passive test to be sure?

To test the 2160's coax passthru, it has to be connected direct to TV with no intervening "boxes."

With the 2160 OFF, tune to any pic on the TV, then pull the power plug on the 2160 for just a few sec, enough time to check the pic quality.

IF the 2160 has an "active" (amp'd) coax passthru, the TV pic should get slightly worse, like an anlog channel will get grainy, for example.

If the TV pic stays pretty close to the same or no change, the 2160's passthru is passive (non-amp'd).
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post #1936 of 23784
10/6/08 at 2:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas_Tom View Post

I now wonder just how much "slightly amplified" these units cable output is. Learning today about the 2160's signal strength meter allowed me to do a test.

I started with the 2160 first in series and the signal strength was ranging from 86 to 90. I then changed to have the 3576 first with it's "amplified" output going to the 2160. The signal strength dropped to the 78 to 82 range.

There are lots of articles and discussion of digital signal strength if you Google "digital signal too strong".

Here's ONE good discussion of how a device's signal strength indicator is not a reliable indication of actual signal strength, among other things.

One response to a poster's ref. to a "meter" reading on his device is very informative, so I'll copy NetworkTV's post:

"NetworkTV - 02-15-07, 07:18 PM

Quoted question: 'Wouldn't you expect that the signal strength meters on my TV and DVR would reflect an off the chart signal as 100%, instead the TV says 64% while my DVR says 88% (measuring same digital channels on both).'

Network TV's answer: It's odd, but too much signal strength can actually hit equipment so hard, it registers as a reduced signal.

A similar thing can happen with satellite dishes. They encounter what is known as "splatter", where the signal is so strong, it actually breaks up and becomes harder to lock in on.

Your TV may be experiencing this same effect, where the signal is so powerfull, it's breaking up and appearing to exibit poor signal strength.

Think of it like this:

Before I had a TV with multiple inputs, I used a video switch box. The problem is, every time a trailer for some suspense or horror movie would come on, the video would flip and roll. Why? Those silly white flashes they put in where too "white" for the switch box. The box didn't have enough headroom to handle that high of a video frequency, so the image went wonky.

When I had cable at my last apartment, I had the same issue with too strong a signal. I'd get knocked off the 'net all the time with my cable modem. As a result, I had to have an attenuator on the line to drop the signal down enough so the cable modem could use it."
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post #1937 of 23784
10/6/08 at 3:02pm
I can't easily do your test by unplugging the 2160, too much stuff to move to access the plug. The next time I have to get behind everything I'll give it a try.

I'm not having problems with the digital tuner on either unit so I don't suspect signal strength problems here. Based on my experience with the cable modem I think that my signal to the house is probably a bit weak.

My experimenting with the signal strength meter on the 2160 was for informational purposes only, not because of problems.
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post #1938 of 23784
10/6/08 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

I'll be changing that para., but confirm for me that you have to be using the DVI connection for the DVI setting to have an effect... just checkin cuz I just assumed that... seemed "obvious"?

I'm interested also in the better PQ with your TV setting changed and may add a short note on that in the approp. subject.

Some TV may have separate DVI connection for DVI input (refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface). But some TVs do not have special i/p for DVi, but the same HDMI i/p (same HDMI wire) can take DVI i/p as well. Actually DVI is same as RGB HDMI without voice. My TV has only one i/p which has HDMI type connector. I can select by remote whether I want that i/p to behave as HDMI or HDCP or DVI.

In short to answer your first question, I am using same HDMI connection, but just selecting it behave as DVI by my TV remote. (refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Co...ility_with_DVI)

Now coming to PQ.

The 3575 sends 1920x1080 on HDMI o/p. Now if TV overscans then it leaves out 5% picture from each side. i.e it take 1728x972 (i.e. leaves out 5% on left, 5% on right, 5% on top 5% on bottom). Then TV re-formats this image of 1728x972 to 1920x1080 to show it on 1920x1080 screen. This reformating will result in lowered PQ. But if overscan is switched off, the TV will show picture without any re-formating i.e. map TV screen pixel by pixel to what is coming on HDMI or DVI giving good PQ. Google for "HDMI Overscan" and you will see how widespread problem is.

The good news is that 3575 sends pristine image on HDMI. But the TVs overscan (read re-format) that pristine image and in process screws up. You can get around by switching off overscan (if available) or using DVI connection.
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post #1939 of 23784
10/6/08 at 6:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by video_guy View Post

Some TV may have separate DVI connection for DVI input (refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface).

Good info, thanks!

In fact, something caught my eye in looking at the link above, where it says:

"The DVI interface uses a digital protocol in which the desired illumination of pixels is transmitted as binary data. When the display is driven at its native resolution, it will read each number and apply that brightness to the appropriate pixel. In this way, each pixel in the output buffer of the source device corresponds directly to one pixel in the display device, whereas with an analog signal the appearance of each pixel may be affected by its adjacent pixels as well as by electrical noise and other forms of analog distortion."

The pixel-to-pixel notation sounds a lot like what I've been looking for in regard to the "dark pic" problem some people have with their computer-based 1366x768 (advertised as 720p) displays.

That non-video rez might play a part in the dark pic effect, and I've read elsewhere that those TVs should have a setting for, best I can remember, "1:1 pixel" or "DTV" display, and now maybe there's a "DVI" setting which, by design, would set the TV for 1:1 pixel display of the video signal from the 3575/3576?

I looked thru my Vizio 37" 1080p LCD menus and couldn't find either "Overscan" or any of the settings mentioned above. Maybe someone else with a 1366x768 (720p) TV can... I know of only one user who did find a DTV setting and he said it helped brighten the pic?
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post #1940 of 23784
10/6/08 at 7:16pm
What is model of your TV ? I couldnot find anyVizio which can display 1080p. All take 1080p on HDMI and then down-rez to 720p and then display. That defeats the purpose of sending 1080p from 3575 because TV will re-format the picture. You will be better off sending 720p from player to get better picture. Anyway to check overscan do the following. Take any jpeg.

Play it on 3575 and see it on TV via HDMI.

Then again 0lay it on 3575 and this time see it on TV via RCA AV.
See if the Jpeg is being clipped from the sides. If it is clipped then TV is doing overscan.
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post #1941 of 23784
10/6/08 at 8:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by video_guy View Post

What is model of your TV?

My Vizio TVs don't have the dark pic problem, I'm trying to help other people with 768p TVs that do.
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post #1942 of 23784
10/7/08 at 7:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by video_guy View Post

What is model of your TV ? I couldnot find anyVizio which can display 1080p. All take 1080p on HDMI and then down-rez to 720p and then display.

They sell quite a few 1080p LCD TV models with native 1080 x 1920 resolution. But nothing 1080 under 42".
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post #1943 of 23784
10/7/08 at 4:09pm
Thread Starter 

Walmart Mag 2160 "Out of Stock Online" again!
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post #1944 of 23784
10/7/08 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post


Walmart Mag 2160 "Out of Stock Online" again!

Have no fear - they'll be back.
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post #1945 of 23784
10/7/08 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post


Walmart Mag 2160 "Out of Stock Online" again!

Actually, I see that as a good thing. If they're moving the stock, then both WalMart and Magnavox will be happy with the "value" and keep making these things.

If they stop selling, then we could be in for problems, since they seem to be the last manufacturer marketing them. And with this econ0my - I doubt many folks will be willing to make things that aren't moving off the shelf quicky.

Rick
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post #1946 of 23784
10/7/08 at 6:10pm
Just received my new 3576 today and I was a little surprised to see that the Menus and OSD look identical to my Toshiba D-R400, except for some features the Toshiba doesn't have like HDD, Tuner, etc.

If you want to compare the similarities for the OSD just download the User's Guide for both units and look at page 14 for the D-R400 and page 22 for the 3576, also check some of the other pages to see what I mean.

My question here is, who makes who?
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post #1947 of 23784
10/7/08 at 6:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSquare View Post

My question here is, who makes who?

Funai makes them both. And the Magnavox.
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post #1948 of 23784
10/7/08 at 7:54pm
With these two units, once you have initially ran AutoScan to look for OTA Analog/Digital channels, you "CAN" then add channels "MANUALLY". Just turn the antenna in the direction you want to tune channels. My analog channel 4 KARK shows DTV ch. 4.1 once you enter the real channel of 32 on the UHF band. Type in the actual physical channel it is broadcasting on and the machine will re-map them to the channel you are used to seeing on analog except with a .1 or .2 behind the number and so on. I've seen some as high as .9. Just recently I found a channel from Eufaula Oklahoma, 3.1 OETA (PBS) which was tropo. The Towers are over 100 miles from me. The physical channel in the UHF band was 31, of the subs, .2, .8 and .9 were listed. It had the main channel and 3 subs like most PBS local stations. 3.1 and 3.2 were active channels but even though 3.8 and 3.9 locked, they only yielded black screens. My guess is that OETA was not airing anything on those subs at the time but they were still active standbys. "

YOU "CAN" MANUALLY ENTER AND ADD DTV" OTA" CHANNELS ONCE AN INITIAL AUTOSCAN HAS BEE PERFORMED" (no I'm not yelling)

If you add them, they are stored in memory until "YOU" delete them

Its possible that the machines would have allowed me to add OTA DTV channels manually when I first hooked the machine up , but I auto scanned just in case there was a new OTA DTV channel broadcasting that I did not know about. Hopefully this will answer many questions about the ability to "Manually" ADD/DELETE and Store to MEMORY OTA DTV channels after intial OTA Analog/Digital Channel Scan on the Philips 3576 and Maggy 2160.
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post #1949 of 23784
10/8/08 at 9:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo View Post

My Vizio TVs don't have the dark pic problem, I'm trying to help other people with 768p TVs that do.

Wajo, I did some research and I believe, I have answers to why picture is dark in some sets and not others.

The answer lies in Gamma Correction. The picture was dark for me also in HDMI (from 3575), but I did change Gamma on my TV from 1 to 4. This I did long ago.

Now when I connect 3575 using DVI setting, my TV does not apply Gamma Correction (for DVI, I believe it does for HDMI). The TV just displays the pic coming on DVI as it is with 1:1 mapping of pixel on screen. On DVI I/p, the picture is crisp clear and full (i.e. no clipping because of overscan), but the picture is dark (i.e. no Gamma Correction). I brightened the picture by increasing tweaking the brightness and contrast for DVI i/p on my TV.

May be the people who are seeing dark picture is due to fact that their TV do not do Gamma correction, or may be just need to twek Gamma Correction setting.

Refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_correction

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=6&gl=us

http://www.wikifaq.com/Digital_gamma_FAQs

Also to add (quoting a Wiki): "Y'CbCr signals (prior to scaling and offsets to place the signals into digital form) are called YPbPr, and are created from the corresponding gamma-adjusted RGB (red, green and blue) source using two defined constants Kb and Kr as follows"

Some people see better picture in YCbCr because of Gamma adjustment in 3575. To get DVI i/p on MY TV from 3575, I need to set 3575 to RGB instead of YCbCr. The DVI need RGB coding instead of YCbCr. In RGB Mode, 3575 may not be doing Gamma Correction. Now if TV also does not do Gamma Crrection (as in my case of my TV's DVI I/P), the picture will be dark.
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post #1950 of 23784
10/8/08 at 11:03am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by video_guy View Post

Wajo, I did some research and I believe, I have answers to why picture is dark in some sets and not others.

The answer lies in Gamma Correction. The picture was dark for me also in HDMI (from 3575), but I did change Gamma on my TV from 1 to 4. This I did long ago.

Some people see better picture in YCbCr because of Gamma adjustment in 3575. To get DVI i/p on MY TV from 3575, I need to set 3575 to RGB instead of YCbCr. The DVI need RGB coding instead of YCbCr. In RGB Mode, 3575 may not be doing Gamma Correction. Now if TV also does not do Gamma Crrection (as in my case of my TV's DVI I/P), the picture will be dark.

Interesting stuff.

I checked the manuals for my two Vizio LCDs, 47" 1080p and 37" 768p, and only the newer 37" mentions gamma, and it's only in the table of features ("Gamma Correction"). Neither has a specific setting for gamma, but both say if using DVI, connect to HDMI-2 rather than HDMI-1.

HDMI-2 is right next to audio L/R connections. With my TVs, anyone wanting to see what DVI's RGB and "1:1 pixel" environment (which I've been searching for for awhile) might do for PQ and pic brightness should connect their HDMI cable to HDMI-2 as a test. There might be other HDTVs with a specific HDMI connection for DVI devices (i.e., where you have to convert DVI on the sending device to HDMI for the TV)... mine just happens to be HDMI-2.

I'm going to see what happens with my 3575's when I connect the HDMI to HDMI-2 input on my TVs and, as you and the Wikis mentioned, set my HDMI Format to RGB/Normal.

I'm wondering if HDTVs with a specific "DVI" on/off setting apply that setting to ALL HDMI connections on a TV or a specific HDMI connection?
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AVS › AVS Forum › Video Components › DVD Recorders (Standard Def) › Magnavox 537, 535, 533, 515, 513, 2160A, 2160, 2080 & Philips 3576, 3575