Magnavox 537, 535, 533, 515, 513, 2160A, 2160, 2080 & Philips 3576, 3575 - Page 680

If I key in 44.2 (have to do it quickly) the unit goes to 44.1 and I get 5.1. I will try it on the record setup menu (I got 5.3 when I setup record with 44.3) so we will see what comes up with 44.2.

That's crazy! What caused the crazy prices?

I did not realize that Fox owned Channel 9 (WWOR). That explains much of it, however, why the FCC allowed Fox to mingle 5 and 9 over the two frequencies is beyond me. Thanks for the education.

Supply and demand. Funai isn't making them any more and sellers know if you really want one, you might pay a higher price.

The VERY high price that one seller tried? Wishful thinking.

Still, down the road, if there are NONE left to be had except the "crazy price" one, and someone's a crazy rich videophile, that outrageous price might yet get paid.

"crazy rich" would have to be "crazy stupid" also. But nothing is impossible.

Anybody who has ever looked at the insane bids people make on items in ebay will take your words as a given.

Rich and intelligent are many times mutually exclusive.

Thanks guys for the further input. This, IMO, gives the 'Newbie / Lurker / Non-Techie' some alternatives to utter frustration.

1. Quote:

   Originally Posted by rkg22
   
   ...this is a good philosophy as well. the only rub for this that i don't care for is that if i have, say, RF channel 89, but with only DTV virtual 89.3 that's available on that freq, i get a bunch of unusable channels to land on when using the up/down stuff if i manually add that channel... the manual add process seems to enable everything that has an active slot, even though there might not be active content.... IOW, in my case, if i add 89 manually, i get 89.1 ( dead ), 89.2 ( dead ), 89.3 ( active content ), etc....
   
   during the auto scan, the machine seems to understand the lack of active content and, therefore, only memorizes the active 89.3 virtual...
   
   This entire process is just to convoluted for my 'Senior' mind to remember without referring back to my notes and/or 'Experimenting' again. I seem to remember reading something (Wajo's FAQ?) that you MUST have the '.1' channel in order to receive any of the '.1+' channels. All of my SDs are in groups of ~10 on 65.x, 66.x, 67.x and, IIRC, 65.1 is a 'Black Screen'. The latest problem that tilted me towards the MANUAL ENTRY was the automatic entry of a Spanish channel that blocked any kind of entry of the NJ PBS channel. It took a while to discover this relationship since both channels are in the "Valid Area" that Ken.F mentions in #2.
   
   When I build my "2x4 UHF Bow-Tie" (for the attic) - I certainly hope to find that "Round Tuit" this year! - I'll get firsthand experience with my first OTA scan on the Mags (and several CECBs).
   .
2. Quote:

   Originally Posted by Ken.F
   
   I was manually programming my FiOS channels as well until I realized all of the "bad" channels that create tuner conflicts are below digital channel 10 and all of the local access junk is up in the 100s. The lowest tunable channels are a couple of Spanish language channels that I never watch carried on channel 26, then nothing until WGN on 55. My local channels are in the 70s. Now I just run auto channel preset with the coax disconnected until the digital scan passes channel 26, then I reconnect the coax until it passes channel 80, then I disconnect it again and wait for it to finish.
   
   I totally agree with your method of "Below 10 / Over 80". That sounds like a good start for a 'Newbie / Lurker / Non-Techie' ESPECIALLY if it works for them. As I explained above to rkg22, I seem to have a 'Glitch' in that inside that "Valid Area", I have a conflict.
   
   Once we 'Techies' understand the problem, it's easy to find a solution that works for our INDIVIDUAL circumstances by reading the posts of other 'Techies'. It's the 'Newbie / Lurker / Non-Techie', who expects the Mag Tuner to operate as stated in the manual, who gets frustrated and gives up (which in turn gives us a huge supply of Refurbs! ).

Thanks again for the input guys. I hope that this post provides some useful information / ideas-to-try for the 'Newbie / Lurker / Non-Techie'.

I did not realize they were not being produced anymore. That is a bummer.

Any thoughts as to why they stopped making them?

I hope this doesn't make things worse, but there are only a few of us cable people here. Channel 89 at 615MHz is only valid in a cable system. OTA stops at 69 now. With a cable feed, you could have an ananlog/vsb channel 89 or a QAM channel 89 that has subchannels found by lookup using the PSIP table or using SCTE-127 or some other cable magic. This assumes Cox in your headend passes the PSIP information.

As I mentioned earlier, the lack of a ".1" channel may cause issues. It's rare, and I have a TV (Sanyo) that is like the Mag with a TV/DTV button that is also not happy without the ".1". This would be a firmware issue like you said.

Since the Mag has no cable card, like my TVs, I see the raw QAM channels always. I also have a Sony TV that doesn't need the TV/DTV switch. But it's important to remember that channel 89 is always channel 89. MPEG compression permits additional subchannels, which, with PSIP, could be anywhere. What you get on 89 today could be on 10 tomorrow. It's the burden of us using raw QAM. My cable feed is nice and sends out a warning when it changes channels. Usually they indicate the new channel also even though they usually don't specify the subchannel.

You have seen that the Mag will jump to xx.1 if you enter xx and DTV is selected. My Sony TV will sit on xx and not move since its tuner is both vsb, 8vsb, or QAM without a switch. I hope this isn't covering too much ground you already know.

We have a problem since the Mag does not allow selection/blocking of a specific subchannel. You select 89 and that allows 89.1 through 89.99 if they exist. Unless Funai makes a new model with a new tuner, we have to live with it. It's not so bad.

Speculation: it's related to why Walmart no longer sells the CM-7400.

I have my V513 on FiOS QAM but my 515 is OTA. There shouldn't be any channel conflicts with any of the Philadelphia OTA channels. WPVI (ABC) and WHYY (PBS) are on VHF but I could get WPVI reliably on the home-made 4-bay bowtie in the attic. I really wanted WHYY so I picked up a ANT751 on sale at Walmart for $30. It works very good on both UHF and VHF for how small it is. If you can find the ANT751 on sale it almost isn't worth taking the time to build your own.

hi joe -

1st, let me clarify my situation...i do use both OTA and Cable ( with different machines ) ...

the channel 89 reference was just a reference that my situation matches with my cableco provider... to clear up the question of possible analog / digital overlaps, my cableco distinctly separates any analog RF from digital RF content, so there is no real issue there...

my OTA DTV market appears to be pretty clean with no ' pseudo-violations ' of the primary/sub channels. IOW, everything here seems to obey the club rules for not mixing virtuals or separating similar primaries/subs across more than 1 RF channel. so i'm lucky in that respect...

i'm also lucky in that my mits tv shows BOTH RF channels and virtual channels associated, as well as showing QAM ( or VSB for OTA ) info for everything.

i believe that COX here in las vegas feeds sufficient sub-channel data ( with or without actual content ( be it scrambled or not ) for the mits to actually crank up the channels and memorize them...

one note here. on the mits tv, the scan memorizes LOTS of subchannels that actually go beyond x.99 ....

an example of this is that the mits assigns things like a range from 80.128 to .160 or so. i have also seen the mits assign subs up to 5 digits ( xx.abcde )... not sure if this is a bug in the mits tuner, or if cox actually tosses these assignments out. in any case, they usually carry no content ( at least nothing in the clear ).. sorry this is a bit OT, wanted to explain the differences between the Mag/Philips and mits tv characteristics.

perhaps 234 might enlighten us on possibility of firmware changes to fix up channel management processes which, i believe, is technically possible since channel mem, itself, is really outside the realm of the tuner hardware.

also perhaps 234 might provide some input as to ( unrelated ) the ever maddening trouble with black levels on these machines in general. i'm convinced that the 0 IRE vs 7.5 IRE discrepency is what causes all the washed out dark levels; a characteristic NOT displayed with my circa 2004 Panny E95...

rgds,
ron g


rgds

It sounds like you have a better understanding than I do. The Mag can only display .1 to .99, but it tunes my cable channels that all have four decimal places on most of my other A/V equipment. I also feel that the Mits TV is way ahead of its time in technology.

As for the PQ issues, I don't see them on my Sony EX700. Even if I did, I could adjust a zillion things per HDMI input. My test for good black level rendition is lapels on dark suits. They don't show with a bad black level. I used a cheap MS calibration disk to fix the OEM levels and the Mag works fine. I should mention that I record 480i digital content and I send out 1080p through a AVR that doesn't mess with the video. I use Sony DHG or TiVo for HD.

Almost forgot: the Mag says nothing on a dead digital channel. It says "scramble" when data is present but cannot be decoded.

Just noticed something. Main channel numbers are always 6MHz in bandwidth. My HD channels can have one HD and two or three SD subchannels. My SD only channels usually carry 10 or 11 subchannels. Music channels may have 40 to 50. If you have compressed more than 10 subchannels, the quality must really suck.

I got my 513 2 weeks ago & I'm loving it. I only have 1 prob. to date I can't seem to solve. Hooked up to only OTA antenna I get 2 channel 11.1 when using the scan up/down button. They appear to be identical. Is there a way to remove 1 of these so I don't scroll from 11.1 to 11.1 before getting 13.1. BTW there is no 11.2 or higher being broadcast.

TIA
Steve

Station call letters?

Station is ktvt-dt the Dallas CBS affiliate.

You can check:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KTVT

I figure that it broadcasts on 11 (VHF) and 19 (UHF) and both have a PSIP. If killing 19 or 11 doesn't fix your problem, maybe somebody here can help more. Best of luck.

You can't delete specific subchannels on these units. 23kw? That's pretty weak.

From wiki:

KTVT broadcasts on channel 11 and on channel 19 and both stations use the virtual channel "11.1" causing many digital TV receivers to show channel 11.1 twice when tuning sequentially.

Thanks much Joe. Killing 19 (didn't even know it was there) fixed the problem. I really appreciate your assistance.

Steve

hi joe -

i'm no expert by any means, especially when it comes to DTV stuff... i do believe, however, that one can actually fit 2 ( i think ) HD channels into a single RF channel. if only 1 HD, then capacity across sub channels increases accordingly...

as far as the > .99 subchannel displays, i have yet to see ( or hear ) any active material on those higher decimal subs. in the mits, i can only tell that they're all on the same RF channel. the mits diagnostic screen for the tuner is limited in that it displays RF freq, modulation type, S/N ratio, and the fact that the tuner is locked on the RF channel. it does not give me any indication as to ' clear but no content ' or ' active scrambled content ', so it leaves me in the dark on that question...

cox crams 1 HD channel and several ( typically about 5 ) SD channels into the same RF channel, so bandwidth does suffer.

the black level issue with the Philips/Mag machines was thought ( by me ) to be a function of what was being delivered via COX.

however, further tests ( an OTA test using philips tuner ) yielded slightly better, but still washed out dark stuff on these machines, while my mits tv had no such washout. other tests included using an RCA OTA set top converter feeding both the Panny and the Philips. The panny also showed no washed out dark areas ( like the lapel sample you refer to ), indicating that the set top OTA box ( feeding DVRs via line inputs ) did a correct job for demod and video processing from dig to analog... however, the Philips still showed slightly improved, but still very washed out blacks...

so far, i have yet to be able to produce what i consider to be acceptable blacks ( near black to black ... almost no definition at all ) on either the Mag or any of the 3 philips machines... the panny E95 ( which is analog thru and thru ) always does a much better job with this...

i might add that i've gone through ALL of the various HDMI modes offered by the Mag, and have fiddled with calibration of the Mits to try to compensate ( mits has an extensive advanced video setup mode available ) for the lack of black level definition, but to no real avail...

after studying the schematics for the Philips machine, I can't locate anything staring out at me that's physically available to adjust ( or to change part values ) that might improve the thing, but i'm not quite done with that part of investigation. used to be one could trace an analog video path and fiddle with DC levels and gain in order to overcome such shortcomings, but so far, none with this modern machine... oh well...

sorry to have dragged this out. i know it probably belongs in the hi-tech suite... did it here in hope that 234 might take a look and maybe comment on the black level issue, since i believe there IS a discrepency going on as to IRE levels that differ between Japan and USA standards...

rgds,
ron g

Many people here have a better understanding than I do...

sorry

Read post #515 here by Citibear

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...599173&page=18

Explains it well.

Wow, I read more of this thread, it is clear that this is a sensitive topic and it is sad that the enthusiast always looses out. It is also a shame that our current copy protection laws are so one sided against the consumer when in fact the real threat is other countries that have supercomputers to break protection schemes and ignore copyright laws.

What I do not understand is in the audio industry there are many small companies (small compared to Sony, Panasonic, etc.) that make extremely high end gear that sells at outrageous prices to the audiophile niche market. Sure many of the companies do not last more than 5 to 10 years, but new ones pop up. What is so magical about an HDD DVR that can record in true HD (and even burn off if that is what the videophile wants)? Yes, it will cost $1500 or so, but these will not be sold at Walmart, they will be sold at high end HT shops and on the internet. Why doesn't the audio model work for video?

I am an audiophile and the way I rip vinyl using audiophile turntables and studio grade hi-rez recorders compared how a teenager might rip his parent's or grandparent's vinyl collection to his computer and then to his ipod (using an all in one turntable/ADC that can be bought at bargain basement prices) are worlds apart. My way cost at least 10 times what the teenager's way does, but in the end we both get what we want.

Yes, it is a post worth bookmarking so the reference can be cited every time this question comes up from new people to the forum -- which is frequent. There is only one thing I would disagree with in Citibears post. From the last paragraph:

Ah-hem -- we're not geeks. Advanced users -- maybe -- but certainly not geeks. Using my PC to record/author/burn HD/5.1 has never caused me to bite the head off a chicken .

It does. Oppo is a small company that makes very high-end BD/DVD players that sell for premium prices ($500-$1000) on the Internet. Like audio, there is a market for high-end video gear to watch professionally created source. Audio is big, yet how many stand-alone CD-recorders with a radio tuner do you see on the market for recording radio broadcasts?

People want to put their money into the devices that allow them to enjoy the content -- not create the content. They are happy to let someone else do that. The few people that do, number below a niche market -- 50 people on AVS stamping their feet for an HD recorder does not make for a viable market -- especially when 45 of those people want it sold at walmart prices in order for them to buy it. PC based solutions (PC-tuners or networked TiVo) are the new paradigm because the PC can be used for all kinds of other things and adding HD/5.1 recording ability is a low-cost bolt-on.

I glanced at your profile and it appears we have a few things in common. I am a retired scientist and I try real hard not to drink any bad wine. I agree with what you say about Oppo, so much so that I own one. I do not agree with your point about the radio. There was a time when audiophiles routinely recorded radio broadcast (usually on an R2R and later on a cassette deck). Most stop doing this because of the dumming down of radio broadcast content as opposed to a lack of desire to do it.

Now, If we could get Oppo to make DVR's we might get what we all want....

As there was a time when videophiles routinely recorded TV. But like audio, that time has largely passed for all but a few. Most people today who record are not interested in burning disks or otherwise archiving. They want to record/watch/delete and if they really liked the show they will buy the professionally authored DVD or BD set when it comes out.

We don't need Oppo to make DVR's. The analog to Oppo in the DVR world is TiVo.

P.S. I have an Oppo too.

hi alp...

i'm sort of an audiophile as well and have a rough time internally with much of the digital stuff. it seems, though, that short term numbers mean everything and the enthusiasts seem to get lost in the mix....



rgds,
ron g

hi 234...

based on my limited understanding of how things work, it seems that the Funai machines' video sections are calibrated such that anything recovered below 7.5 IRE ( a video black level standard ) is rendered as BLACK, whereas the content material that seems to be received ( at least here in the market where I live ) has content material where actual BLACK is equal to 0 IRE ( another video black level standard ).

the result of this discrepency is that darker material, such as darker grey through black, is ALL rendered as black, with complete loss of the finer definition of these darker levels, producing a muddy, washed out display of those darker areas of a video scene... an example of this was made in reference to someone wearing a dark, or black suit, with this discrepency causing almost complete loss of the definition of the subtle differences, like the lapel of the suit not even being visible against the slightly darker appearing balance of the suit.

i would think that this is probably due to manufacturing a ' one size fits all ' international product. however, i might also think that the video processor electronics in these machines have some sort of strapping or internal programming to allow for multiple standards, so as to be able to be used in different countries without having 2 or more separate devices being used.

it would be nice if the Funai machines had this capability somewhere, even if it meant locating some strapping on the PCB to accomplish a change that would implement the appropriate regional standards.

if you have any communication connection with the folks who implemented the video sections of these machines, it might be valuable to pose this kind of question to them to see if they might have an answer or solution...

hope this helps...

rgds,
ron g

You are right, but without OTA or Cable Card, the TiVo is useless.


Maybe a secret IRE menu?