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Magnavox 537, 535, 533, 515, 513, 2160A, 2160, 2080 & Philips 3576, 3575 - Page 772

post #23131 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmazda View Post

Hardly. Haven't you noticed the volume of posts here describing QAM tuning failure that's almost unheard of among TV tuners? The Funai tuners are apparently being fooled by something in or missing from the cable-provided signals to prevent or impede getting and/or maintaining lock on unencrypted channels that are reliably available via cable boxes and TV tuners, including tuners in Funai's TVs.
While I would never say anything is perfect, compared to their competition they are pretty good. I tried the CM-7400 (might have gone to heaven) and it couldn't handle my cable at all. If the tuner subsystem was fixed it would be a better unit. I can't recall any OTA user having a problem with the tuner.

On the most recent problem, my TV could handle an analog 26 and a digital 26.1 (if that was physically possible - it's not), but my 515H didn't cost $900.
post #23132 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmazda View Post

Hardly. Haven't you noticed the volume of posts here describing QAM tuning failure that's almost unheard of among TV tuners? The Funai tuners are apparently being fooled by something in or missing from the cable-provided signals to prevent or impede getting and/or maintaining lock on unencrypted channels that are reliably available via cable boxes and TV tuners, including tuners in Funai's TVs.

Correct..they can't handle some QAM's that meet SCTE specs that other Panny, LG, Philips and Sony DVR's handle just fine..and Funai is unable (or unwilling) due to staffing to correct the issues.

Of course..as cable migrates to all digital..and eventually encrypts the local QAM's...these boxes will no longer have any issues....
post #23133 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

compared to their competition they are pretty good.

While compared to the dearth of current competition that's probably true, compared to competition that abandoned the market rather than add digital tuners and compete with the mushrooming availability of cable and satellite PVRs, many of their features are inept by comparison, as the long list of features in the want list amply demonstrates. In particular, their editing functionality compared to my Pioneers' is crude, while the inability to save a title image to HD to ride along to the DVD at each & every dub time instead of having to create, and wait, individually after each dub is complete, like the absence of a previous/last channel hotkey on the remote, is inexplicable. I can only hope I die before my two Pioneers do rather than suffer editing for DVD archiving with my 5 Funais. 5? I didn't say they were useless. The autorecord buffer is a gem. smile.gif
post #23134 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

I can't recall any OTA user having a problem with the tuner.

I suppose it's been a while. All mine play tuner pictures on average much too dark compared to line input pictures from at least a dozen competent sources. To make decent DVDs from its tuner recordings I have to dub to DVD-RW, play the DVD in one Pioneer with video corrected, and record that output on the other Pioneer for editing and archiving to DVD.
post #23135 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmazda View Post

All mine play tuner pictures on average much too dark compared to line input pictures from at least a dozen competent sources.
I see the difference too, but I prefer the darker picture of the tuner. I want black to look black, not grey.
post #23136 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post

I prefer the darker picture of the tuner. I want black to look black, not grey.

I like black blacks too, but given a choice between black blacks, and zero detail in dark areas where detail was non zero in the source, I prefer non-zero detail. If I want only black, I can turn the TV off. smile.gif
post #23137 of 25403
Let's compromise. I want to see lapels on a black suit. That's an easy test for good blacks.
post #23138 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

Let's compromise. I want to see lapels on a black suit. That's an easy test for good blacks.
I must be doing OK then.

Playing on my 515:
post #23139 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmazda View Post

I like black blacks too, but given a choice between black blacks, and zero detail in dark areas where detail was non zero in the source, I prefer non-zero detail. If I want only black, I can turn the TV off. smile.gif

Agree. These units definitely are doing something to the luminance. Maybe applying some sort of non-standard gamma?

scott s.
.
post #23140 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post

I must be doing OK then.
Works for me. Now that you know what to look for your life will never be the same.
post #23141 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post

Correct..they can't handle some QAM's that meet SCTE specs that other Panny, LG, Philips and Sony DVR's handle just fine..and Funai is unable (or unwilling) due to staffing to correct the issues.

Of course..as cable migrates to all digital..and eventually encrypts the local QAM's...these boxes will no longer have any issues....

Yep, cable changes are forcing me to fully migrate to TiVo. The wife who has one TV on straight cable keeps complaining about "losing channels". Upstairs TV that has straight cable to 515 has become less than ideal losing various channels. I presume this will only get worse. I am also tiring of ferrying DVD discs from the downstairs 515 to the upstairs 515.

So, I have made up my mind to get another TiVo and a TiVo mini when it comes out next week. Another advantage of the TiVos is I get to watch everything in HD although the 515's SD is pretty darn good. I will keep one 515 to make discs to carry content to my PC, maybe sell the other one or keep as a back-up.
post #23142 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmazda View Post

Hardly. Haven't you noticed the volume of posts here describing QAM tuning failure that's almost unheard of among TV tuners? The Funai tuners are apparently being fooled by something in or missing from the cable-provided signals to prevent or impede getting and/or maintaining lock on unencrypted channels that are reliably available via cable boxes and TV tuners, including tuners in Funai's TVs.

+1
Really wish there was a firmware or upgrade tuner we could install in these things. I've had to resort to a UHF loop for OTA channels and then a cable box on E1 for everything else.
Been a real disappointment since that started.

Is the issue not fixed in the current 53x series? I was getting ready to recommend one to someone with the same local cable co.
post #23143 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

I believe that will work. Plus it will not use much space since it has a low bit rate. It's been a while though. I'll have to check again. I know my Sony DVR won't record dead air, like you said. My cable music channels have static album art, but I do have an HD radio that feeds my AVR.

As usual, wajo is ahead of us:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/940657/magnavox-537-535-533-515-513-2160a-2160-2080-philips-3576-3575/1100_50#post_14138235



Why is this not surprising! smile.gif Thanks, Joe (and Wajo)
Quote:
Originally Posted by profhat View Post


Myself, all the time. smile.gif Those Maggys are really fool-proof devices.

you, too, profhat. Thanks for the confirmation - that saves at least one cable strand of spaghetti behind my tv)
post #23144 of 25403
I think it's been said before, but the black level issue seems to be from digital tuner.

HDTV, SDTV, DVDs, YCbCr output, etc. use brightness levels of 16 for the darkest black and 235 for the brightest white.
PCs and RGB colorspace/output use 0-255.

It seems that some video conversion is being done incorrectly in RGB colorspace.
I'm just guessing but somewhere along the way it's going 16-235 -(proper level conversion)> (0-255) -(levels cropped)> (16-235).

It can work okay if you properly remap the levels. If instead you just say everything from 0-15 is 16, you end up crushing your blacks (and similarly the brightest whites by making everything 236-255 be 235).

You pretty end up with a picture just like we're seeing. There's not really any way to recover what's been lost.
I like to think it's something they could fix in a firmware update, but it's probably yet another tuner issue.

Edit 2: Sorry, I made a mistake, the black level issue is with all ATSC or QAM digital sources, HD or SD. It's been a long time since I've had QAM in the clear standard def content. Corrected explanation above.
Edited by DoctorM - 3/2/13 at 8:49pm
post #23145 of 25403
Philips 3576H Issues

One while editing recordings I will have sound, but when I exit back to live tv, I lose sound, til I play another recording, why I don't know, secondly have a recording with a RED dot in left corner on the hard drive, and unable to delete, unforuately cannot afford to get a replacement hard drive if it needs one, totally broke at the moment. Working on cleaning off the hard drive as quickly as possible currently, but gonna be a while to do that, got about 4 pages of recordings currently.

After Running Skip 013 Factory Check

Problem Solved, So It appears the Firmwire got stuck or something on the 3576H, Re Recording my series show that I need to edit commericals out of, will do these right away tonight, then dub them to dvd, and not let them sit on the hard drive, thankfully had Directv dvr backup of all 8 episodes
Edited by computerman3 - 3/2/13 at 3:55pm
post #23146 of 25403
Last week, my 513 with super FW ran out of HDD space during a timer recording. It gave the error E50. No problem, I free'd up some space and "one-time" recorded a rerun, then went in the timer recordings list to erase the E50 code from the SKIP field. I figured I was fine. Well, this week came, and the timer did NOT record the next instance of the recording either. I'll be recording a rerun again, but now I'm wondering will the timer ever kick back in, or should I completely delete it and re-time it?
post #23147 of 25403
I've also noticed some unusual things on my 2160A along those lines. I seems like dubbing a dub within 2 hours of a scheduled recurring recording will cause that instance of recording not to run, though there is no indication that it won't run. I think maybe if you go into the scheduled recording and make an edit (like move start time back a minute) will allow it to run. I've also had situation where a scheduled recording stopped mid way due to HDD full. I though no problem as it shifts over into autostart recording. I thought I could record the autostart recording, but even after deleting a title it still wouldn't allow recording due to HDD full. So it appears to me the firmware can get stuck and not take into account actual status of HDD.

scott s.
.
post #23148 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorM View Post

I think it's been said before, but the black level issue seems to be from HD to SD conversion.

Edited:
HDTV, SDTV, DVDs, YCbCr output, etc. use brightness levels of 16 for the darkest black and 235 for the brightest white.
PCs and RGB colorspace/output use 0-255.

It seems that the HD to SD conversion is being done incorrectly in RGB colorspace.
I'm just guessing but somewhere along the way it's going HD (16-235) -(proper level conversion)> Conversion to SD (0-255) -(levels cropped)> SD output (16-235).

It can work okay if you properly remap the levels. If instead you just say everything from 0-15 is 16, you end up crushing your blacks (and similarly the brightest whites by making everything 236-255 be 235).

You pretty end up with a picture just like we're seeing. There's not really any way to recover what's been lost.
I like to think it's something they could fix in a firmware update, but it's probably yet another tuner issue.
+1, and no amount of tweaking the TVs brightness, contrast or Gamma could correct things to my satisfaction, which is why I personally never kept one.
There is also another brightness issue with N. American SD levels starting at +7.5 IRE whereas HD levels(and the rest of the worlds SD levels) start at 0 IRE. This is the issue with very old Panasonic DVDRs and all international Panasonics, although this brightness issue is easily corrected with the TVs brightness control, unfortunately no so much with what you are seeing frown.gif
One way to know for sure if it's as simple as 0-255/16-235 would be to hook a Magnavox to a PC display looking for 0-255, if things looked perfect you may be onto something.
Like the Panasonics some people or their displays seem less prone to the issue but personally it bothers me enough to where if I couldn't find a workaround I couldn't use them. As has been noted in the past, with the Magnavoxes I don't so much notice the issue using line inputs but just when using the build in tuner, unfortunately that would be my main use for a DVDR with a digital tuner.
Edited by jjeff - 3/2/13 at 12:14pm
post #23149 of 25403
The thing is, there is no reason the levels should be altered at all. I think you are right, jjeff.
Someone working with the tuner mistook U.S. standard to use an IRE of 0 instead of 7.5 for black (which is 16 on the RGB scale).

Has this really not yet been fixed after all these years? That's a long time for such an egregious bug to persist.

A lot of what I record is via a cable box to the E1 input (mostly because the tuner refuses to see my clear QAM channels).
Since the input lines and analog tuner don't suffer from the black level issue that works out fine.
Edited by DoctorM - 3/2/13 at 9:02pm
post #23150 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorM View Post

The thing is, there is no reason the levels should be altered at all. I think you are right, jjeff.
Someone working with the tuner mistook U.S. standard to use an IRE of 0 instead of 7.5 for black (which is 16 on the RGB scale).

Has this really not yet been fixed after all these years? That's a long time for such an egregious bug to persist.

A lot of what I record is via a cable box to the E1 input (mostly because the tuner refuses to see my clear QAM channels).
Since the input lines and analog tuner don't suffer from the black level issue that works out fine.

I thnk that lt's a bit ironic (not inconsistent though) that there is a uniform reaction here that the deep blacks are being crushed due to the tuner inadequacies. I have a 2160A, a 513A and a 515 (two of which are hooked up via HDMI while the remaining via component). Using AVIA II the brightness settings on both of my HDTVs have to be turned down significantly for the Maggies ( to 1/4 of the range). All other devices using AVIA II or DVE require a mid-point brightness setting. Recordings made over the tuner (which I rarely do) do appear to have crushed blacks. So if others are NOT using a calibration disk (and using the default brightness setting) then the Maggie's brightness should appear too hot.
Edited by JimLely - 3/3/13 at 9:20am
post #23151 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorM View Post

A lot of what I record is via a cable box to the E1 input (mostly because the tuner refuses to see my clear QAM channels).
Since the input lines and analog tuner don't suffer from the black level issue that works out fine.

Since the tuner fails to see your clear QAM channels it would be logical to assume something is wrong with your tuner. But it might be just a very strange cable feed.
post #23152 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by rxheaven View Post

I'm wondering will the timer ever kick back in, or should I completely delete it and re-time it?

Just re-time it, that will do the trick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorM View Post

A lot of what I record is via a cable box to the E1 input (mostly because the tuner refuses to see my clear QAM channels).
Since the input lines and analog tuner don't suffer from the black level issue that works out fine.

In my case, the analog tuners still give me a subtle darker image. But the 513 tuner is better that the one in the old 2160A.

However, I still believe that Funai should give us a reliable Android HD Recorder.
post #23153 of 25403
@JimLely - If you are using calibration discs, you aren't utilizing the digital tuner. I've never had any problems with the DVD output quality on my Philips.
post #23154 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorM View Post

@JimLely - If you are using calibration discs, you aren't utilizing the digital tuner. I've never had any problems with the DVD output quality on my Philips.

I realize that I'm not using the tuner when I play a calibration DVD. The point I was making was that if you don't calibrate (as many people probably don't) then you are getting an excessively bright picture on the maggie (unless my 3 units are aberrations.) And with this excessive brightness there are still crushed blacks when recording or viewing off the tuner as I noted.
post #23155 of 25403
I am a 533 newbie, find this thread very helpful and want to confirm that the unit does not support high definition.

The details are that about 2 years ago a Comcast set top box became required because of the digital conversion. A few months ago I upgraded to a new state of the art TV and also upgraded to a high definition set top box.

I record very infrequently so I didn’t want to pay the monthly Comcast DVR fee. I would like to occasionally pause live TV. I purchased a 533. I've learned a lot, think I receive scrambled channels requiring the set top box be cabled before the 533, but am OK with that.

No matter what I try, when setting the TV to receive input from the 533 the best picture I receive resembles a non-high definition broadcast via the set top box. I am using a 533 > TV HDMI cable.

As much pre-purchase research as I did, I never considered that the 533 would not be high definition. Please tell me I am wrong?
post #23156 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingo9 View Post

I am a 533 newbie, find this thread very helpful and want to confirm that the unit does not support high definition.

The details are that about 2 years ago a Comcast set top box became required because of the digital conversion. A few months ago I upgraded to a new state of the art TV and also upgraded to a high definition set top box.

I record very infrequently so I didn’t want to pay the monthly Comcast DVR fee. I would like to occasionally pause live TV. I purchased a 533. I've learned a lot, think I receive scrambled channels requiring the set top box be cabled before the 533, but am OK with that.

No matter what I try, when setting the TV to receive input from the 533 the best picture I receive resembles a non-high definition broadcast via the set top box. I am using a 533 > TV HDMI cable.

As much pre-purchase research as I did, I never considered that the 533 would not be high definition. Please tell me I am wrong?

It can receive HD via the RF in, antenna or direct cable in. A cable box only outputs SD via RF. the composite & s-video input of the 533 are also SD. Really doesn't matter, the 533 only outputs SD, It is an upconverted SD but not HD.
post #23157 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingo9 View Post

I am a 533 newbie, find this thread very helpful and want to confirm that the unit does not support high definition.

As much pre-purchase research as I did, I never considered that the 533 would not be high definition. Please tell me I am wrong?
Simple test. Plug the 533 into the wall. Scan for channels. If all are scrambled you should have nothing. If you get channels then use the remote to set the HDMI output to 1080p. See if they look better.

As was said, the output of the 533 HDMI is SD. You can upconvert to 1080p. Have you ever tried a channel scan with your TV without the cable box?
post #23158 of 25403
This question may have been asked before, but I have not seen it if it has been asked. Does anyone know how the RF loop through (Antenna In and Antenna Out RF jacks) on the 515 and 537 work with respect to signal loss? I have my two 515's daisy chained (I bring my antenna feed into the first one and then take the Antenna Out from it to the Antenna In of the second one). I notice no problems with signal strength on the second unit. I am considering hooking up a third unit (a 537) by daisy chaining one more time. So what I want to know is do I loose 1/2 of the signal strength each time it gets divided in one of these units (1/2 to the unit, 1/2 to Antenna Out) or do the boost the out going signal enough to compensate for the splitting?
post #23159 of 25403
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

Simple test. Plug the 533 into the wall. Scan for channels. If all are scrambled you should have nothing. If you get channels then use the remote to set the HDMI output to 1080p. See if they look better.

As was said, the output of the 533 HDMI is SD. You can upconvert to 1080p. Have you ever tried a channel scan with your TV without the cable box?

The first thing I did with the 533 was connecting to the wall (no cable box). The initial scan only picked up random channels, nothing I would ever want to record. Next I tried a splitter and third I tried with the 533 as a slave to the cable box. The slave configuration would actually work for me as I only wish to pause live TV and record a program when I am not home to watch it live. However the lack of HD irks me.

I've set the 533 to 1080i, 1080p, progressive scan ON, progressive scan OFF. The picture isn't bad, but no where near the quality the HD picture that comes from Comcast.

I am not familiar with "upconvert to 1080p" although I suspect my issue is not a lack of 1080p, but a lack of HD. It seems there would be a lucrative market for a HD DVR that functions like a VCR, no?

I truly appreciate the kind responses.
post #23160 of 25403
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALP View Post

This question may have been asked before, but I have not seen it if it has been asked. Does anyone know how the RF loop through (Antenna In and Antenna Out RF jacks) on the 515 and 537 work with respect to signal loss? I have my two 515's daisy chained (I bring my antenna feed into the first one and then take the Antenna Out from it to the Antenna In of the second one). I notice no problems with signal strength on the second unit. I am considering hooking up a third unit (a 537) by daisy chaining one more time. So what I want to know is do I loose 1/2 of the signal strength each time it gets divided in one of these units (1/2 to the unit, 1/2 to Antenna Out) or do the boost the out going signal enough to compensate for the splitting?

 

I have 4 units daisy-chained and all work very nicely on my boxless cable system.

 

The Philips and Mag units have a 4dB amp>low pass filter>2dB amp in the video circuit, which boosts the measured output signal ~1dB (compared to a non-amp'd circuit's ~1dB loss).

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