Magnavox 537, 535, 533, 515, 513, 2160A, 2160, 2080 & Philips 3576, 3575 - Page 173

For me, there seems to be an overemphasis on large drives. I don't store a lot of stuff there and I archive promptly. The few times I've ever recorded anything for 6 hrs were sports stuff at LP to be promptly deleted. It's mainly that large drives are so cheap now. In Japan, most of the HDD recorders these days come with 320-750 GB HDDs and of course, there are Blue-Ray units. 1 TB units are just around the corner.

If you do a lot of editing and particularly with the ole Toshiba RD-XS units, there are a lot of benefits to a smaller HDD. I am currently deploying an RD-KX50 whereby no one has been able to upgrade it beyond 80 GB (tho' I'm not thru trying . . .). Because the Toshibas also create thumbnails for chapters, a smaller HDD is faster at doing this; twice as fast as a standard 160 GB HDD. Deleting stuff and merging chapters is also twice as fast. When you got a large HDD with a lot of titles on them, things really slow down, to say nothing about them going corrupt at the most inopportune moment. On this little 80 GB HDD, editing just flies! It's zip, zip, zip and the titles are ready for archiving. I just have to make sure I archive stuff off every few days. If anything, I'm thinking of downgrading the HDD to 80 GB on one of the two recorders I normally run just for this purpose .

Of course one main advantage of a large HDD is if you are going to be out of town for a week or two. It's a no brainer there. Here, I'll swap out the 80 GB unit for one of my 250 GB models.

Update follows on next post (I guess I need 3 posts to use an URL).

6/1/09 Update:

I again called Funai “customer service” spoke with “Eric” this time. He said that the call was being recorded and I informed him that DVD’s could be finalized on my unit by erasing everything in the timer que first.
I asked why no one that I’d spoken to at Funai customer service suggested such a temporary remedy as a quick –fix while waiting for a Firmware download “patch” to become available?
He said that he had no record of this E19 error ever being reported, and I was the first to voice such concern.
He finally forwarded me to “William” who seemed eager to pass the buck to another dept.
When I shared that this was likely a more widespread model H2160MW9A problem since I’d communicated with those who had the earlier model and were not experiencing it and others who had the same model as I and were experiencing it, and who stated that they had already reported this very concern to Funai, and we were all now waiting for a firmware fix to download.
He said that customers could not download firmware fixes. He then said that internet forums were not a reliable source of information as “anybody can say anything about anything and that didn’t make it so.”
I shared with him that one of his own “customer service” agents had evidently slipped and shared with me that this was a problem that had already been reported before and was known by Funai, so this was obviously not an isolated case (I didn’t tell him that it was Jeff that told me this).
I then shared the Funai firmware update webpage (provided by Wajo)
http://www.funai-corp.com/support/updates.aspx
and asked when the fix would be available.
He digressed and said this was not a firmware issue but a software problem as evidenced that there was not yet a firmware download available.
He said the problem would have to be handled by the Funai administration dept.
He gave me another number to call (800-396-6919). There I spoke with “Charles” badge #1940.
Charles reiterated the previous line that this was a unique problem isolated to my machine and the solution was for me to send the unit back to the Funai warehouse (at their expense) and they would send me a replacement unit.
I said that I would be happy to send my unit back to them (at their expense) for a problem free replacement, if he would guarantee that would be the case. But if all they were going to do was send me a replacement unit then it would be better for me to wait for the one which I had already ordered, which should arrive within a week or so.
If this is indeed an isolated problem then the replacement unit would not exhibit it, and I could then send them back my current unit for replacement and I’d keep both units. However, if the replacement unit exhibited the exact same E19 finalization problem, then it should be apparent that this was not an isolated case and likely a model wide problem. I asked if that happened how would they handle that situation?
He said that they would have me send both units in for “repair” and have their “technicians” analyze the machines for a correction. The units would be repaired and returned to me or I would be offered a refund, if they could not be “fixed.”
I was surprised at this point to hear that they actually had technicians available at all in this country. And said that I would wait for the replacement unit and let them know what I found out.
I did inquire as to replacement part availability when the unit was no no longer covered by any warranty. (hard drives & burners, specifically). He said that parts were only available through Authorized Service Centers (ASC) in my area. I said that there was no ASC in my area, not for over a hundred miles, and that the service cost for repair and S & H would exceed the initial value of the unit. He reiterated that due to liability that parts could not be sent to individuals and I’d have to go through an ASC when an unwarranted component failure occurred.

So there you have it.
Denial (up the chain) that this is an inherent model problem.
And no direct Funai access for replacement components to customers without going through an ASC to be gouged.

It has been my experience that before one can begin working on a remedy one must first acknowlege that a problem in fact exists.
The supervisory level "customer service" and "admisnistrative" Funai staff that I've thus far been privy to speak with appear to be in a chronic state of denial that this problem is widespread enough to warrant any sort of Firmware Update or other kind of generalized "fix" outside of simply returning the unit for a replacement that in all likelihood will possess the same disfunction.
How does one address such an issue when those one is instructed to contact for remedial action have no ears to hear.

Wajo
Thank you for sharing that the H2160MW9 can use SATA hard drives as replacement/upgrades.

SATA's are faster than equivalent PATA's but also use more electricity and run hotter.
Heat is the killer of all electronics.
HARD DRIVES (regardless of manufacturer) begin to self-destruct when they reach 60C (140F) They last longer when run under 50C (122F), and last longest when running at under 40C (104F)

From the list of optional Seagate SATAs you provided I checked for the following source availability which seems to be a little better (at the moment) than the earlier PATAs

ST3500418AS Seagate Barracuda SATA 500GB w/16MB cache
NewEgg.com $59.99 (very available but numerous poor ratings, high failure rate reported)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...pk=ST3500418AS
ZipZoomFly.com $57.99
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Produc...dlist=celebros
Amazon.com $59.99
http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Barrac...3888873&sr=1-1
Provantage $56.57
http://www.provantage.com/scripts/se...RY=ST3500418AS
[NOTE: none of the 500GB HD's were over $60. The unit as is retails for $250. I'd be willing to pay an additional $50-$100 ($300-$350 retail) to have one of these HDD DVD recorders w/Tuner with a 500GB HD on board]

ST3320418AS Seagate Barracuda SATA 320GB w/16MB cache Buffer
Provantage $54.65
http://www.provantage.com/seagate-st...s~7SEGS1Y4.htm
CDW $59.99
http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/def...TecID=14024358

ST3250318AS Seagate Barracuda SATA 250GB w/8MB cache Buffer
Provantage $49.66
http://www.provantage.com/seagate-st...s~7SEGS1WM.htm

ST3160318AS Seagate Barracuda SATA 160GB w/32MB cache Buffer
Provantage $48.72
http://www.provantage.com/seagate-st...s~7SEGS1YE.htm

What about alternate replacement burner components, any news?

Regarding ordering replacement/upgrade components:
Once one opens the unit case any existing warranty is void. But if one waits until a component fails, then parts availability is questionable.
However, any parts ordered and not tested immediately for function will likely not be warranted for failure at a later installation date.
So what is one to do?
These units will eventually fail, and when that happens replacement/upgrade units will not likely be available. The only way to extend their life is to have access to a supply of the most heavily used/most friable replacement/repair components or spend an exorbitant amount to have an ASC do the work for you, assuming that they have the parts.
Eventually the powers-that-be will have their way with us and deny us any ability to record these programs at home without the purchase of their service contracts.
Lord willing, when that not so distant time arrives, there will be those on forums such as this who know how to work around or delay this apparent end.

Trucmuche wrote:

My error, the back of the unit plate does have the model number with an "A" suffix. The bottom of the unit with the serial number has the March 2009 manufacture date.

DigaDo wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly with you on what a reputable company should do to rectify a situation such as this, but I'm more inclined at this point to think skeptically. Since Funai is apparently the lone ranger producing/distributing these products in North America, and since it seems that there is such a great deal of pressure being exerted to discontinue the mft of any HDD DVD recorder w/a tuner, and since this may be an added cost that the company is unwilling to bear, and since their technical savvy to do so seems to be so lacking upon this side of the ocean,…
I think that it is far more likely that they will simply continue to pretend that the problem doesn't exist, or is isolated only to that handful of individuals that report it to them, and simply request those customers to return those units for a refund.
I hope that I'm wrong about this, but I have this queasy gut feeling....

Could the forum member who had a Funai/Magnavox person tell them not long ago that the problem IS known and IS being worked on please post?

I'd like to have this confirmed, but also know how to contact that rep so's to light another fire.

What setting should the drive be set at prior to installation, master?

Now they're playing the we don't know anything about it card and hoping they sell a bunch more units before they finally admit it truly is a problem, just like they did with the QAM tuners forgetting channels. At first they were doing the rapid return where they would send you a fixed unit before you sent back your old one, by the time I called about my early unit they wanted me to send it back and they would repair and return it, estimating it would take a month round trip.
I think they will be forced to either repair or release a new FW but not before they play the usual games like before. They originally said the tuner problem would be fixed by FW, then realized it was a hardware defect, this time they may be leaning the other way.
I love my unit that works properly and hope they don't just end up bailing on us entirely, and I had to got through quite a few to get one that worked right, but it was worth it to me in the long haul.

If you use a IDE replacement just set it to whatever the original is set at, I THINK mine was set to CS but you'll have to look back on Wajo's note's about what I and others have had work.

WRONG WRONG WRONG
This statement is Wrong, SATA drives use less power and run cooler. Believe me I know. I 've been running SATA, ESATA drives in these machines for a while now. I don't know where your getting your information but it is untrue

Yes

FYI: Both 3575 and 3576 are running ESATA drives with no problems what so ever, all functions tested and work perfectly. Less than a minute to swap a drive.

Bold added for emphasis.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Dr..._their_metrics

The hard drive setting in my Magnavox 2080 is CS (cable select).

I upgraded from the original Western Digital 80GB to a Seagate 160GB hard drive back in March. I'm pleased with the result.

You either keep the unit and live with the flaws or return it for a refund. Funai is a maker of throw-away electronics; a pure bottom-feeder. Product support beyond replacement or refund is not part of their business model. Once a product is manufactured, boxed and warehoused it is basically sold as-is until the stock is cleared.

Thanks to the many posts like yours prospective buyers of the 2160 should have a clear understanding of what the flaws in the unit are. They should then make their purchase decision based on whether or not they can live with those flaws without any expectation that they will ever be fixed.

Don't have +/-R disc, but with -RW disc it gives E19 message and finalization fails.

What is this - "I Dream of Jeannie" or something?

Good ol' Kelson - always tells it like it is.

I hate to come off as dense, bu would someone please explain the reason for finalizing an RW disc? Is it because of it being a -RW rather than +RW? Because my first Philips machine (DVDR75/17 - now in burner heaven ) was not -R/RW compatible, I've used strictly +RWs for all my temporary DVD recordings on multiple brands of recorders since 2004 and the only place they will not play unfinalized is on the Mitsubishi Mobile Theater in the car.

I'm just not sure that testing with a -RW would result in a definitive conclusion, but maybe that's because I'm missing something.

Regarding auskck’s disclaimer of my statement above:

Anyone who builds or maintains any kind of computer system or network is aware that excess heat is the bane of this technology.

First of all let’s begin with the well known fact that excess heat degrades and kills electronic components.

Practically everything associated with computer function requires energy and generates heat.

CPUs generally consume the most electricity and generate the most waste heat. The exception being high speed gaming PCs in which the primary culprit is/are the video card/s. And in commercial systems where banks of multiple hard drives collectively draw more juice and generate more heat.

Of all computer components the one most vulnerable to excess heat is/are the hard drives.

This is why any computer system, be it PC or commercial, is so concerned about air flow.
Fans for intake and out take are crucial to drawing excess heat away from these critical components.

Every hard drive manufacturer has specs on operating temperature ranges.
For example Seagate states that the ST3500418AS Barracuda SATA 500GB has an environmental operating temperature range of 0-60C (32-140F).
But I might add that this is a rather generous marketing range and the ideal operating temp range for maximum hard drive longevity is actually much narrower.

I appreciate SteelTownGuy bringing up the Google study.

The Google engineer data was presented Feb 2007 in San Jose, Calif., at the 5th USENIX Conference, on File and Storage Technologies, examined data center performance at temperatures from 15 to 45 degrees Celsius, or 59 to 113 degrees Fahrenheit.

They found negative effects from high temperature only for the higher end of the temperature range (104 degrees Fahrenheit or more) and even at those temperatures the negative effects were only observed for drives at least 3 years old.

By contrast, a software and hardware manufacturer known as AVTECH Software said the "optimal" temperature range to maintain data center reliability is between 68 and 75 degrees Fahrenheit.

The Google engineers did report seeing a "modest increase" in failure rates at the lowest end of the temperature distribution they studied.

Google researchers wrote:

One thing which Google failed to do in releasing this report is include the brand and model of Hard Drives which had the lowest and highest failure rate.

SATA drives generally run much faster, draw more electricity and produce more waste heat than their comparable IDE counterpart.
I know this as a personal fact having run both SATA and IDE hard drives side by side in the same system/s under the same load/operating conditions, and rotating rack positions.
For example at idle with an ambient temp of 76 F the following temps were noted.
Seagate ST3750640A 34C/93F
Seagate ST3750640AS 39C/102F
Maxtor 7L300SO 35C/95F
Maxtor 6Y250PO 29C/84F
Even under heavy load the IDEs consistently ran 10F less than the equivalent SATA.
SATAs require better air flow to help keep them cool which is one of the reasons why they use the more efficient round vs flat ribbon cables.

Granted, reliability stats can very from brand to brand and even model to model from the very same manufacturer.
Whether the drives are manufactured for commercial or private use and, as the Google study concluded, there can be a variance among individual drives of the same model.
Generally if one of these mass produced items is reliably error free after an initial test loads are run it will likely remain reliable for awhile, whereas whenever a scan error is first detected it is a warning that drive failure is imminent.

Granted, high end technology is improving, and trickling down from commercial to private use, however the end result of the Google study still shows that there is a great deal of variability, especially among private users. And, might I add, the hard drives used in these HD recorders is intended for private, not commercial use, as are the replacement drives listed by Wajo.

So I reiterate:
The Google study focused upon a very narrow commercial range of temperatures from 15 to 45 degrees Celsius, or 59 to 113 degrees Fahrenheit.
They found negative effects from high temperature only for the higher end of the temperature range (104 degrees Fahrenheit or more)

I stated in my earlier post that

There is nothing within my statement that is contradicted by the Google study.

And even the Wikipedia report referred to by SteelTownGuy stated:
Which pretty much concurs with my statement as well.

Regarding the faster SATA requiring more electricity and generating more heat than equivalent capacity IDE’s, I leave that to check for yourself.
I have my own personal (as well as associate) studies which validate this statement but here is a link for anyone interested in doing their own research.
Links 'o Plenty (Ultimate Links Thread). This is another good place to discuss the latest computer hardware issues and technology.
http://forums.legitreviews.com/about2234.html

Granted, SATA is a superior performance technology over PATA, with many advantages. But until a new breed of SATA hard drive arrives on the local market the current SATAs of which we are considering here do require a little more electricity and do run a little hotter than their PATA counterparts.
Whether the excess heat produced and additional electricity is clinically significant depends upon the individual.

Bear in mind that the 160 GB HD on this unit is considered modest by today’s standards. Larger capacity drives with more platters tend to produce more heat than the smaller capacity drives.
Airflow (and hence heat) is a critical issue, which is why most electronics manufacturers recommend a minimum amount of free space around their operating devices.
Unlike a computer it is difficult to monitor the internal temperature of the hard drive in this recorder.
If one finds it necessary to replace the existing drive due to failure or plans on upgrading to a larger drive I recommend checking the replacement drive for initial reliability by having it first run on a PC where the disc can be scanned and run under load conditions to help insure initial individual reliability before installing it into the recorder unit. The drive can always be F disked prior to installation in the recorder.

Kelson wrote:

I agree with and appreciate Kelson’s post.
Because, unfortunetly, Funai appears to be the only game in town I will, initially anyway, have to play by whatever rules they dictate.
I plan on keeping the unit, of course, as well as the back up so long as it is functional, as I will be able to use them both. I will work within the limitations of their abilities and apply the work arounds as necessary.
This however does not negate me from applying whatever pressure that I can to encourage Funai to address the obvious intrinsic manufacture flaws in a general constructive manner.

In the meantime I will acquire a couple of ST3500418AS Seagate Barracuda SATA 500GB w/16MB cache hard drives, install them in a PC and follow my own advice.
After the warranty expires I will open the cases of my H2160MW9A’s and install them, per the instructive advice provided by auskck, Wajo and others within this forum.
I would also like to get a couple of spare burners as well, for I know that is a critical component bound to eventually fail from repetitive use.
Hopefully someone here can provide a source for that component for us as well.

I offer my grateful thanks for the knowledgeable input of the many posters and my sincere appreciation to Wajo for originating this very enlightening thread.

Yes the -RW needs to be finalized to be played in anything other than the same type of machine that recorded it, just like -R and +R discs. As you said the +RW (and also RAM in RAM compatible machines) don't need to be finalized. Of course finalizing isn't really final with RW discs, you can always reformat the discs and rerecord over them.

Looks like Walmart is out of stock on the Maggie. Just wondering if they sold all the stock or the remainder of the stock has been pulled from their inventory for the impending fix. Only time will tell the future of these units.

With the Magnavox and Philips you can also just "unfinalize" the disc, and add, delete, or edit the titles as though it had never been finalized.

In my experience the Magnavox-A finalization problem behaves the same for both -R and -RW discs.

Stephan56 wrote
In the meantime I will acquire a couple of ST3500418AS Seagate Barracuda SATA 500GB w/16MB cache hard drives, install them in a PC and follow my own advice.
After the warranty expires I will open the cases of my H2160MW9A’s and install them, per the instructive advice provided by auskck, Wajo and others within this forum.
I would also like to get a couple of spare burners as well, for I know that is a critical component bound to eventually fail from repetitive use.
Hopefully someone here can provide a source for that component for us as well.

1. For a small price for a couple of cables you can make it ESATA
2. Possible DVD burner replacement for Magnavox series HDD DVRs
Magnavox DVD Recorder, ZC320MW8 <$100
Specs appear to be the same at worst case run it in line

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...#ProductDetail

You had to remind me of that didn't you
That's my second most wished for feature that Funai DVDRs have that Panasonics do not have. The first one would be that the HDD on the Funai DVDRs remember where you left off on each title and not just the last one played, like on the Pannys.
Personally I'd use that unfinalize option somewhat frequently if Pannys had it. For my kids I like to make best of DVDs and unless I finalize the disc they can only play it on my DVDRs and not their players. I currently use +RW discs for this purpose but they have several issues if recorded on a Panasonic; search speeds, no top menu etc.

Please, stephan56, take your very technical issues about heat to that other forum as you suggested somewhere within your remarks. That Wajo, Auskck and a host of others have done such a great service to owners of these two very similar units (3575/76 & H2160) is commendable and your comments and rebuttals regarding a very specific subtopic are not warranted. I do not dispute your expertise or your conclusions, just your wisdom in posting within this thread.
I find myself the owner of a late-model 3576 which works flawlessly, which caused me to buy an H2160A as soon as I noticed from reading this forum that the units were in stock a few weeks ago. My new H2160A has been out of the carton for about 2 hours while I made sure it was basically functional, and that it indeed has the E19 (cannot finalize when timer has entries) error that plague this model. I will watch here to see if a solution is ever presented, by Funai or any others. I will keep my H2160A as I do believe, flawed as it is, I know the workaround, and it sure is better for me to have a workable unit than no unit. I cannot at all trust that Funai would do anything more than provide a refund, causing me to have no secondary unit for any years to come. I'll keep an open mind and hope that someday a FW solution is posted where I can put the fix into place myself.
I also agree with other posters that it's unlikely that many more self-contained boxes, by any manufacturer, such as this 2160 will ever be offered in North America.
I stumbled across the 3576 by accident when Wal*Mart was stocking them in their stores, bought it the next day, and have now retired that nice ol and fully functional DVD-player/VCR combo unit by Samsung. I'm never going back to VHS except to allow my CFO to play her Disney flicks.
All who post here have been helpful to all others. I suggest we stay focused on these units and leave the techno-geek-temp-issues for other forums.

Stephan,

I, for one, am enjoying your posts. There is definitely some well-thought-out info you are sharing with the group, so I hope it doesn't come off like I'm beating up on you. I would like to clarify a few things.

I agree that heat can be a real problem for computers and electronics, in general. Likewise, extreme cold temperatures can also cause lots of problems (ask NASA).

Let's acknowledge that environmental conditions among all of us varies. For instance, I live in the north...just across the border from Canada. Winters are harsh (146" of snow this year) and summers are mild. My "normal" room temperature could easily be 10 - 15 degrees F lower than yours. That is significant.


Nice job on that data. Is see your ambient temp was 76F (as I suspected, much higher than my average room temperature). Again, from the Google study, they concluded:


That's the "Goldilocks" zone, if you will. Your SATA drives, while clearly running hotter, are actually running at a more optimal temperature. In my house, where ambient temperature might be 66F, SATA drives might last twice as long as a cooler running IDE drive.

This logic may be a little difficult to wrap your head around at first, but lets shift gears for a second and consider an automobile's engine as another example. We know that car's run most efficiently when the engine has had time to come up to normal operating temperature.

Google claims optimum operating temperatures of 97F - 117F which sounds reasonable to me.

Went to Buckeye once but it was closed Ex USAF Luke Field in the 60's. Have a good day and enjoy your recorders.

Agree. I have noticed a few features of the Magnavox/Philips DVD playback that I don't care for so much. The DVD skip forward and skip back are SO slow they are virtually useless, especially because multiple skip button presses can't be stacked -- you have to wait for each one to complete before it recognizes the next skip. I've also found that for DVDs recorded on the Magnavox/Philips, the skip functions are disabled when played on my Pioneer DVDR.