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Guide to Building a HTPC, Workstation and Server - Page 74

post #2191 of 18935
6/8/08 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab View Post

For HD audio and video, you only have two options right now:

Intel - The G35
AMD - The 8200

The G35 has been out a lot longer, and works great. The 8200 is finally getting the bugs worked out and seems to be working, but the AMD CPU chipset and configuration can be confusing if you're not already familiar with AMD (e.g. not all Phenom's will work, and there are some very specific configurations it looks like you need to make to get things to work).

Check out the G35 and 8200 threads to see specifics.

In the not-too-distant future (i.e. likely Q4 this year), you'll have more options:

1) ASUS Xonar - HDMI audio card with HDMI video passthrough - allows you to use any mobo, and any HDMI gfx card, and get HDMI 1.3a HD audio + video. To me, this looks to be the best longer-term solution as you can buy the specific components for each piece however you want.

2) Intel G45 - An HDMI 1.3a upgrade to the G35, with improved performance.

3) Intel/AMD 8300 - An improvement to the 8200, and with Intel CPU support.

4) Radeo 4850 - A Video card with HDMI audio. Better than IGP, since you can use any MB you want, but your stuck with one card for audio and video, so not as good as the Xonar solution.

Anyway, that's the potential future, and who knows when it will arrive. Right now, pick your CPU, and then you pretty much have one choice if you want HD video and HD audio.

Thanks for the great summary!! When are the G45 MBs expected, mATX form factor. Will the G45 MBs also have IGP variants - preferrably nVidia ?
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post #2192 of 18935
6/8/08 at 5:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anywhereanytime View Post

Thanks for the great summary!! When are the G45 MBs expected, mATX form factor. Will the G45 MBs also have IGP variants - preferrably nVidia ?

G45 has only one IGP: GMA X4500. July, but the actual availability is in question: Intel G45/G43 release issue (it's just a rumor, of course).
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post #2193 of 18935
6/8/08 at 9:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

G45 has only one IGP: GMA X4500. July, but the actual availability is in question: Intel G45/G43 release issue (it's just a rumor, of course).

Renethx, thanks for the update, but the delays you have careful described over the last last several months means we need the best that's available today (now until the end of June). We need to build a powerful HTPC - but it will be used for other functionality in a business environment - hence the Intel Quad core. What do you recommend for mATX + Intel Quad core + IGP ?

We do want HD playback and we MUST have HDMI out.

We want "lowest cost/highest value" for a proof-of-concept build.

Option 2 - adding a low cost graphics card to the mATX MB ... which one?

Thanks,

Scott
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post #2194 of 18935
6/8/08 at 9:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anywhereanytime View Post

Renethx, thanks for the update, but the delays you have careful described over the last last several months means we need the best that's available today (now until the end of June). We need to build a powerful HTPC - but it will be used for other functionality in a business environment - hence the Intel Quad core. What do you recommend for mATX + Intel Quad core + IGP ?

We do want HD playback and we MUST have HDMI out.

We want "lowest cost/highest value" for a proof-of-concept build.

Option 2 - adding a low cost graphics card to the mATX MB ... which one?

There is no clear-cut choice. Which audio format do you want from PC, multichannel LPCM or AC3/DTS pass-through? Do you use a receiver? Which brand?

Multichannel LPCM/AC3/DTS

Then ASUS P5E-VM HDMI (Intel G35, $130) is the only practical choice. You have to buy AnyDVD HD ($110). Or you may choose a cheap G31/G33/GeForce 7100 mb ($60-) and add ATI Radeon HD 4850 ($199).

Stereo LPCM/AC3/DTS

Then you can use a cheap G31/G33/GeForce 7100 mb with a decent graphics card (HD 3650, GeForce 8600 GT etc.).
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post #2195 of 18935
6/8/08 at 10:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

There is no clear-cut choice. Which audio format do you want from PC, multichannel LPCM or AC3/DTS pass-through? Do you use a receiver? Which brand?

Multichannel LPCM/AC3/DTS

Then ASUS P5E-VM HDMI (Intel G35, $130) is the only practical choice. You have to buy AnyDVD HD ($110). Or you may choose a cheap G31/G33/GeForce 7100 mb ($60-) and add ATI Radeon HD 4850 ($199).

Stereo LPCM/AC3/DTS

Then you can use a cheap G31/G33/GeForce 7100 mb with a decent graphics card (HD 3650, GeForce 8600 GT etc.).


Our intended use is not dependent on hi-end audio - so an ASUS PSE-VM HDMI (same as months ago when we first started to plan the build) + which Quad core - lowest power consump but least cost fo the proto, something like the Intel 6600 ??

What is the best value DX10 graphics card with HDMI out in the series you list - or the the ASUS have an AGP?
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post #2196 of 18935
6/8/08 at 11:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anywhereanytime View Post

Our intended use is not dependent on hi-end audio - so an ASUS PSE-VM HDMI (same as months ago when we first started to plan the build) + which Quad core - lowest power consump but least cost fo the proto, something like the Intel 6600 ??

What is the best value DX10 graphics card with HDMI out in the series you list - or the the ASUS have an AGP?

Q6600 is the best choice in terms of cost/performance. Q9300 is cooler but pricier.

If you are going with a discrete grahics, there is no reason for choosing G35. G33/G31 is enough unless you want ICH9R (6 SATA ports with RAID), for example, GIGABYTE GA-G31M-S2L (only $65). Either GeForce 8600 GT or Radeon HD 3650 should be fine. XFX PVT84JUSD4 is currently the best choice among GeForce 8600 GT cards (use a generic DVI-HDMI adapter; HDMI audio works fine).

AGP? Another confusion...
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post #2197 of 18935
6/9/08 at 12:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Q6600 is the best choice in terms of cost/performance. Q9300 is cooler but pricier.

If you are going with a discrete grahics, there is no reason for choosing G35. G33/G31 is enough unless you want ICH9R (6 SATA ports with RAID), for example, GIGABYTE GA-G31M-S2L (only $65). Either GeForce 8600 GT or Radeon HD 3650 should be fine. XFX PVT84JUSD4 is currently the best choice among GeForce 8600 GT cards (use a generic DVI-HDMI adapter; HDMI audio works fine).

AGP? Another confusion...

Thanks Renethx ... that's what I was looking for ... AGP was a typo, should have been IGP.
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post #2198 of 18935
6/9/08 at 6:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

There is no clear-cut choice. Which audio format do you want from PC, multichannel LPCM or AC3/DTS pass-through? Do you use a receiver? Which brand?

Multichannel LPCM/AC3/DTS

Then ASUS P5E-VM HDMI (Intel G35, $130) is the only practical choice. You have to buy AnyDVD HD ($110). Or you may choose a cheap G31/G33/GeForce 7100 mb ($60-) and add ATI Radeon HD 4850 ($199).

Stereo LPCM/AC3/DTS

Then you can use a cheap G31/G33/GeForce 7100 mb with a decent graphics card (HD 3650, GeForce 8600 GT etc.).

Is the 4850 available today? I thought we were still weeks away from being able to buy that?

And when is the fabled Xonar expected?
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post #2199 of 18935
6/9/08 at 7:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab View Post

Is the 4850 available today? I thought we were still weeks away from being able to buy that?

And when is the fabled Xonar expected?

HD 4850 (and 4870) are released on June 25 (anywhereanytime's time limit is the end of June).

Xonar in late July.
LL
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post #2200 of 18935
6/9/08 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

HD 4850 (and 4870) are released on June 25 (anywhereanytime's time limit is the end of June).

Xonar in late July.


Oh, cool, didn't realize we were that close on both of these.
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post #2201 of 18935
6/9/08 at 2:55pm
Don't know if this has been covered yet but...

In several of your recommended setups (first post) you list the Crucial Ballistix BL2KIT12864AA804 2GB DDR2 kit. If you check the reviews (at newegg) sorted by date posted, there are several recent reviews claiming that their memory was DOA or died within a month of use. One reviewer claims it fried his motherboard. Seems like most of them say they had batch number 97432.

I just recently purchased some of this ram and after reading those reviews checked what I had. Batch 97432. So far it is running fine but I did read that several users developed problems after some use so I think its best to return what I have and exchange it for another brand. Didn't cut off the upc yet. I got it from Microcenter which has a 14 day return policy on ram I think. I'd rather switch it out now then possibly be mailing ram back and forth to Crucial.
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post #2202 of 18935
6/9/08 at 4:50pm
i want to know if the new cpu" nehalem " good for htpc or not?
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post #2203 of 18935
6/9/08 at 5:07pm
Luckily, some of this has now been discussed publicly at Computex so I can speak.

The initial two processors in the Nehalem family, Gainestown and Bloomfield, would be overkill for an HTPC. Gainestown is a server chip, and Bloomfield is extremely powerful and targeted for enthusiasts. It would be like putting an Extreme Edition processor in your HTPC-- it will work, and work fine, but it's like using a hydrogen bomb to take out that annoying tree stump in the back yard.

Later desktop versions of Nehalem, Lynnfield and Havendale, appear to be much more well-targeted in mainstream/HTPC space. I personally want a Havendale, and suggest going with a 9xxx-series Core 2 Duo or Quad until then.

If you're a gamer or do lots of video encoding, however, I think you will enjoy Bloomfield. The thing is a beast.
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post #2204 of 18935
6/9/08 at 6:10pm
are Havendale and Bloomfield going to use different sockets, hence different mobos? ie - no upgrade path between these two versions of nehalem.
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post #2205 of 18935
6/9/08 at 7:03pm
Thread Starter 
There are three familes in the Nehalem desktop processors. (For details, read 後藤 弘茂 (Hiroshige Goto) - Intelが投入するGPU統合CPU「Havendale/Auburndale」 (November 27, 2007).)

Boolmfield, high-end desktop platform, the successor to X48

- CPU: Bloomfiled (4 cores+triple-channel DDR3), LGA1366, $316 (2.66GHz)-$999 (3.20GHz)
- IOH (I/O Hub): Tylersberg-DT (X58; desktop version of Tylersburg; PCIe 2.0 x32)
- ICH (I/O Controller Hub): ICH10

IOH is a high-speed I/O controller hub and ICH is a low-speed I/O controller hub. CPU and IOH is connected by QPI (QuickPath Interconnect, Intel's version of HyperTransport) and IOH and ICH by DMI (Direct Memory Iterconnect, the current bus architecture between GMCH and ICH).



Lynnfield, the mainstream desktop.

- CPU: Lynnfield (4 cores+dual-channel DDR3+PCIe 2.0 x16), LGA1160
- PCH (Platform Controller Hub): Ibexpeak

PCH is a low-speed I/O controller hub, just like ICH10. CPU and PCH is connected by DMI.



Havendale, the mainstream desktop with IGP.

- CPU: Havendale (2 cores) + GMCH (GPU+dual-channel DDR3+PCIe 2.0 x16) connected by QPI. This is MCM (multi-chip module), LGA1160
- PCH (Platform Controller Hub): Ibexpeak

Havendale's GMCH is naturally expected to be more mature than G45.



Bloomfield will be available in a very low quantity in Q1 2009 and both Lynnfield and Havendale are released only in Q3 2009 according to the article 後藤 弘茂 (Hiroshige Goto) - ソケット数の制約から脱却するNehalem世代のIntel CPU (June 2, 2008). Therefore Core 2 Duo/Quad and P45/G45 will stay current until Q2 2009.

BTW, AMD is also developing Swift, an Accelerated Processing Unit (APU) (formerly called Fusion). Swift is a MCM (multi-chip module) comprised of a CPU die and a GPU die, connected by HyperTransport 3 (so it is similar to Havendale). It is expected in H2 2009.

CPU die:
- Barcelona (phenom) cores
- Griffin memory controller

GPU die:
- RV710 (Radeon HD 4450) core


LL
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post #2206 of 18935
6/10/08 at 1:51am
Thread Starter 
Nehalem MA is

Core MA-based with various enhancements:

- New SSE4.2 Instructions
- Improved Lock Support
- Additional Caching Hierarchy (shared L2 cache -> L2 cache + shared L3 cache)
- Deeper Buffers
- Improved Loop Streaming
- Simultaneous Multi-Threading (SMT)
- Faster Virtualization
- Better Branch Prediction

The below are a block diagram of Core MA core and Nehalem MA core respectively (from 後藤 弘茂 (Hiroshige Goto) - IDFで公開された「Nehalem」の内部アーキテクチャ (April 3, 2008)). Resemblance between Core MA and Nehalem MA is evident. This was revealed at Intel Developer Forum (IDF; April 2-3 2008).



QuickPath Interconnect (QPI)

This is a point-to-point processor interconnect like HyperTransport in the AMD processors, replacing the old parallel FSB.

Integrated Memory Controller (IMC)
LL
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post #2207 of 18935
6/10/08 at 4:35am
Thread Starter 
Bloomfiled will be officially launched in Q4 2008, but supplied in a very low quantity through Q2 2009. There will be three versions:

- Bloomfield 3.20GHz, QPI 6.4GHz, 8MB L3 cache, DDR3-1333, TDP130W　
- Bloomfield 2.93GHz, QPI 4.8GHz, 8MB L3 cache, DDR3-1066, TDP130W
- Bloomfield 2.66GHz, QPI 4.8GHz, 8MB L3 cache, DDR3-1066, TDP130W


LL
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post #2208 of 18935
6/10/08 at 4:55am
Hi everyone,

I created a seperate thread here a couple of weeks ago but I think it is probably better for me to ask my latest question in this thread. That way it keeps all the similar questions in one thread and I don't have to worry about my thread getting lost in the millions of others!

My main question at the moment is whether the graphics on the G45 motherboards will be comparable with the graphics of a standalone graphics card. A subquestion to this (if I don't have the patience to wait for them to be released) is how the graphics on the G35 motherboards compare to the graphics of a standalone graphics card. Please remember that this system will be used exclusively for HD playback (mainly H.264), SD playback, playing music and Internet browsing. I will be doing absolutely no gaming. I just want a HTPC that plays back HD content smoothly.

Thanks for any help.
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post #2209 of 18935
6/10/08 at 5:11am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newport View Post

My main question at the moment is whether the graphics on the G45 motherboards will be comparable with the graphics of a standalone graphics card. A subquestion to this (if I don't have the patience to wait for them to be released) is how the graphics on the G35 motherboards compare to the graphics of a standalone graphics card. Please remember that this system will be used exclusively for HD playback (mainly H.264), SD playback, playing music and Internet browsing. I will be doing absolutely no gaming. I just want a HTPC that plays back HD content smoothly.

As nobody has hands-on experience with G45, this is a mere speculation. A typical discrete graphics is HD 3650.

- PQ: HD 3650 = G45 = G35
- HA: HD 3650 = G45 >> G35
- Deinterlacing: HD 3650 > G45 > G35
- HDMI Audio
--- HD 3650: stereo LPCM/AC3/DTS
--- G45: multichannel LPCM/AC3/DTS, supporting PAP (meaning full-resolution audio)
--- G35: multichannel LPCM/AC3/DTS
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post #2210 of 18935
6/10/08 at 6:47am
i am wondeirng which heatsink is compatible with this case "Thermaltake Bach" ?

scythe mini ninja or some other heatsink is not on the list? if it is not on the list, please list them.
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post #2211 of 18935
6/10/08 at 7:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audionewer View Post

i am wondeirng which heatsink is compatible with this case "Thermaltake Bach" ?

scythe mini ninja or some other heatsink is not on the list? if it is not on the list, please list them.

The same as SilverStone LC16/LC17/LC18/LC20/GD01/CW01.
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post #2212 of 18935
6/10/08 at 8:02am
Does anyone know if I can have 2 SATA harddrives and a SATA blueray drive on a BIOSTAR TF8200? Is that configuration possible on that motherboard?
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post #2213 of 18935
6/10/08 at 8:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epiczero View Post

Does anyone know if I can have 2 SATA harddrives and a SATA blueray drive on a BIOSTAR TF8200? Is that configuration possible on that motherboard?

There should be no problem.
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post #2214 of 18935
6/10/08 at 9:36am
sweet
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post #2215 of 18935
6/10/08 at 10:16am
Hi ,

Upon assembling a type 3 Hi-End HTPC ; I would like to scale low quality Tv or Vedio signals to HDTV standard or atleast to a signal quality suitable for a 42 inch display - something similar to the Bravia engine ,

A detailed procedure may be lengthy or have been discussed elsewhere a link would get me started ,

I could read up if there are software recommendations and a guide for enriching incoming vedio signals - realtime

thanks
Suranjan
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post #2216 of 18935
6/10/08 at 10:45am
You can get an idea of how low quality video would look scaled up right on your computer. Just temporarily set your monitor to 640x480 and watch a youtube video full screen.
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post #2217 of 18935
6/10/08 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter Audio View Post

Hi ,

Upon assembling a type 3 Hi-End HTPC ; I would like to scale low quality Tv or Vedio signals to HDTV standard or atleast to a signal quality suitable for a 42 inch display - something similar to the Bravia engine ,

A detailed procedure may be lengthy or have been discussed elsewhere a link would get me started ,

I could read up if there are software recommendations and a guide for enriching incoming vedio signals - realtime

thanks
Suranjan

See threads on FFDshow and Dscaler. They are probably the most comprehensive tools for doing this realtime. For offline, check out Avisynth, if I recall correctly.
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post #2218 of 18935
6/11/08 at 2:52am
I installed ati hd2600 pro agp videocard in my htpc
now, the cpu usage during Planet Earth blu ray playback fell down to 5-25%, but for some reason I still see some mild but continous, stuttering. On the other hand, media player classic home cinema, can play Planet Earth blu ray with no stuttering whatsoever, perfectly smooth. But the cpu usage shows close to 99% and the audio is breaking up really bad, all the time.
1. What is causing video stutter in power dvd 8 ultra with 2600 pro and 25% cpu usage? Audio is perfect.
2. What is causing mpc-hc to constantly break up the sound? Video is perfect, but cpu usage is up to 99%.
3. If the answer to the above is cpu overload, how can I make MPC-HC utilize the hardware acceleration of the hd2600 pro?
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post #2219 of 18935
6/11/08 at 4:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

As nobody has hands-on experience with G45, this is a mere speculation. A typical discrete graphics is HD 3650.

- PQ: HD 3650 = G45 = G35
- HA: HD 3650 = G45 >> G35
- Deinterlacing: HD 3650 > G45 > G35
- HDMI Audio
--- HD 3650: stereo LPCM/AC3/DTS
--- G45: multichannel LPCM/AC3/DTS, supporting PAP (meaning full-resolution audio)
--- G35: multichannel LPCM/AC3/DTS

Hi renethx,

Thank you very much for your reply. Just a few more questions off the back of your reply:
  • I thought the G35 motherboards already output high-definition audio. Can you give a brief explanation of what PAP is (or simply what it stands for so I can do a bit of reading myself)?; and
  • Could you just confirm that the G35/G45 should play HD video without a problem (given all the other system components are good enough).

Thanks again for your help!
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post #2220 of 18935
6/11/08 at 7:04am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newport View Post

Just a few more questions off the back of your reply:
  • I thought the G35 motherboards already output high-definition audio. Can you give a brief explanation of what PAP is (or simply what it stands for so I can do a bit of reading myself)?; and
  • Could you just confirm that the G35/G45 should play HD video without a problem (given all the other system components are good enough).

PAP stands for Protected Audio Path without which audio from every AACS-encrypted content will be downsampled to 16bit/48kHz.

A couple of problems of G35:

- G35 suffers from the so-called HDCP repeater issue (actually it's not a problem of G35, but of software players). If you use a receiver between G35 and the display, you have to use AnyDVD HD to bypass the issue (+$110).
- Denon owners can't get multichannel LPCM over HDMI. Again it's Denon's issue.
- HA does not work. So you need a faster processor such as E8400 (+$100).

I hope G45 does not suffer from these problems.
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