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Guide to Building a HTPC, Workstation and Server - Page 87

post #2581 of 18891
7/16/08 at 7:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantumstate View Post

Hm archibael, as they are both Socket775 I assumed they were built the same, but maybe not. Odd.

Where are you getting that X9100 is Socket775?

http://www.intel.com/support/process.../CS-028768.htm

Micro-FCPGA. PGA is "Pin Grid Array", and Socket775 is LGA ("Land Grid Array" aka no pins).
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post #2582 of 18891
7/16/08 at 7:55am
Hey guys, I ahve been reading this thread over the past month or so and am very grateful for the great information that is here. I am about to build my first computer and am creating a HTPC based on the information I found here.

My main queston is, if I use a high end video card, I was thinking one the the 4850s, can I skimp on the processor? I found a Athlon x2 dual core 5000+ Be for about 65 bucks the other day and was thinking I could save some money by using that with the higher end card since the card would be doing most of the work anyway, My other components are as follows

2gb ocz platinum ram
MB GIGABYTE GA-MA78GPM-DS2H 770 RT
CASE ANTEC|MINI P180 RT
HD 640G|WD 7K 16M WD6400AAKS
CPU COOLER SCYTHE USA|SCMNJ

Any input or advice would be appreciated. I will mostly be using this to play movies and play occasional games, I am not a big gamer but do enjoy them sometimes. Eventually I want to adda media server but it might be a little while. Right now I only have an older Onkyo reciever with 6.1 channel sound and no HDMI but hopefully that will change in the next few months as full HDMI compatible models drop in price.

I would like my machine to be somehwat future proof, will these parts fill my needs for a couple of years?
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post #2583 of 18891
7/16/08 at 8:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by swilde View Post

My main queston is, if I use a high end video card, I was thinking one the the 4850s, can I skimp on the processor?

Yes, you can skimp on both processor and motherboard, Athlon X2 2.5GHz and GA-MA78GM-S2H are enough. SidePort memory is a totally useless addition. A possible problem of mATX is that there is not enough PCIe x1 slots. If you use HD 4850, a PCIe TV tuner and want to add a PCIe x1 HDMI sound card in future (for HD audio bitstreaming), you are out of luck.
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post #2584 of 18891
7/16/08 at 8:34am
I guess I am too new to looking at home theater through a computer, does the sound card make that big of a differece? I thought htese new cards supported HDMI full HD sound from the BD and between that and a new receiver I would be covered.
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post #2585 of 18891
7/16/08 at 8:47am
Thread Starter 
The difference between HDMI audio from HD 4850 and that from a new HDMI sound card is:

- HD 4850: 16-bit/48kHz multichannel LPCM, DD 5.1, DTS
- HDMI sound card: full-resolution multichannel LPCM, Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream, DD 5.1, DTS

If you choose a HDMI sound card, you don't need HD 4850, IGP is enough.

- IGP + Athlon X2: perfect for 1080p
- IGP + Phenom X3/X4: perfect for 1080p/i (if you do deinterlacing with GPU)
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post #2586 of 18891
7/16/08 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantumstate View Post

I just can not see why everyone likes the Fusion.

It's definitely my favorite mATX design.

2 120mm fans, looks great, simple, built in IR, BLUE customizable VFD!, triple chamber design to separate heat and noise, decent price point.
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post #2587 of 18891
7/16/08 at 9:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

The difference between HDMI audio from HD 4850 and that from a new HDMI sound card is:

- HD 4850: 16-bit/48kHz multichannel LPCM, DD 5.1, DTS
- HDMI sound card: full-resolution multichannel LPCM, Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream, DD 5.1, DTS

If you choose a HDMI sound card, you don't need HD 4850, IGP is enough.

- IGP + Athlon X2: perfect for 1080p
- IGP + Phenom X3/X4: perfect for 1080p/i

So if I want 5.1 sound through the S/PDIF for now, can use IGP (probably 8200), and then later, when I upgrade my receiver to an HDMI one, just add a HDMI sound card, right? I don't need a slot for a tuner as the server will have all the tuners.
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post #2588 of 18891
7/16/08 at 9:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xj-boonie View Post

So if I want 5.1 sound through the S/PDIF for now, can use IGP (probably 8200), and then later, when I upgrade my receiver to an HDMI one, just add a HDMI sound card, right? I don't need a slot for a tuner as the server will have all the tuners.

That's right. Basically any GPU with HDMI out can be used with a HDMI sound card.
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post #2589 of 18891
7/16/08 at 9:19am
so if I understand you correctly, with the configuration I posted earlier I am better off buying a high quality sound card rather than a high end video card?

Thanks again for your help, it is very much appreciated.
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post #2590 of 18891
7/16/08 at 9:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by swilde View Post

so if I understand you correctly, with the configuration I posted earlier I am better off buying a high quality sound card rather than a high end video card?

Thanks again for your help, it is very much appreciated.

Yes. And HD 4850 consumes +50W power compared with IGP at BD movie playback. Ultimately HD 4850 is for gamers (and PowerDirector users?)
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post #2591 of 18891
7/16/08 at 10:57am
Renethx, just wondering when you are going to post the update for mATX systems in post 2522.
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post #2592 of 18891
7/16/08 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantumstate View Post

I just can not see why everyone likes the Fusion.

I like the Fusion because it has large fans which equal low noise and lots of airflow. Many htpc cases have tiny little fans that would have to be turned way up to equal the airflow of the antec case, and that would cause them to be pretty loud. The fans are also right where the cpu heatsink sits so I can get away with no heatsink fan. The fusion is also a pretty decent price for what you get.
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post #2593 of 18891
7/16/08 at 11:55am
I'm in the same boat as swilde, built my BD enabled htpc with parts listed below, it's worked fine so far. Heck, I even grabbed an e8400 off of eBay back a month ago, haven't bothered to install it.

But I will be upgrading my AVR to to get latest hd sound codecs, so will need a hd sound card at that time. Do these cards pose any new/specific requirements on the mobo?

E2200 2.2GHz (could be upgraded to e8400)
GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L
SAPPHIRE 100218L Radeon HD 2600XT 512MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16
2 gig Crucial RAM
LG dual purpose HD DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by swilde View Post

so if I understand you correctly, with the configuration I posted earlier I am better off buying a high quality sound card rather than a high end video card?

Thanks again for your help, it is very much appreciated.
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post #2594 of 18891
7/16/08 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

If you use HD 4850, a PCIe TV tuner and want to add a PCIe x1 HDMI sound card in future (for HD audio bitstreaming), you are out of luck.

Unless you get the Intel DG45ID, which has built-in BluRay hardware decode for video and audio, and HD sound built right onto the board. Also has a 16bit PCIe, 2ea 1bits, and a regular PCI slot in a microATX.


Quote:
Originally Posted by watjac92 View Post

I like the Fusion because it has large fans which equal low noise and lots of airflow. Many htpc cases have tiny little fans that would have to be turned way up to equal the airflow of the antec case, and that would cause them to be pretty loud.

Reading the review on Origen's S10V, they say it's almost silent with 4ea 60mm fans. Does anyone own one? And there don't seem to be any complaints about 2ea 80mm fans, as are in the Silverstone GD02mt. I am just about to pull the trigger on one of them.
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post #2595 of 18891
7/16/08 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Originally Posted by RichTJ99
I like that Lian-Li PC-C37 but of course its not out yet... The Antec Fusion Black 430 case is also nice too (ready today)

I still am not sure what makes more sense, should I:

1. Spend $100 bucks on an older system sitting around 3.2ghz Dual Core (100 being on the case & the mobo together)

2. Spend 650-800 on a new system (100 mobo, 100 video, 150 BR DVD, HD (have one already), 200 case, 40 ram, 200 cpu)

3. Spend nothing & use the 17" deep tower I have now.

The problem is the tower I have now is likely setup to have heat go up not sideways.

Any thoughts?

Without telling us what components (model number, please) you already have, you won't get a right answer.

PC-C37 accepts only a low-profile graphics card, while you are asking no IGP but GeForce 8600 GT which is full-height ... a bit perplexing.



Hi,

The mobo is a Asus P4C-800E Deluxe, 2 gigs ram, 250 gig sata drive, I have a few different AGP graphics card (X800 I think is the newest).


Is there a low profile Geforce 8600? Or something comperable that wont have an issue if the TV is off when the computer boots?

Also, what are the low profile graphic options these days? Any recommendations?

Thanks,
Rich
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post #2596 of 18891
7/16/08 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichTJ99 View Post

I think I like (the Fusion) for the size.

It appears that he somehow does not understand my #2603.
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post #2597 of 18891
7/16/08 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantumstate View Post

Unless you get the Intel DG45ID, which has built-in BluRay hardware decode for video and audio, and HD sound built right onto the board. Also has a 16bit PCIe, 2ea 1bits, and a regular PCI slot in a microATX.



Reading the review on Origen's S10V, they say it's almost silent with 4ea 60mm fans. Does anyone own one? And there don't seem to be any complaints about 2ea 80mm fans, as are in the Silverstone GD02mt. I am just about to pull the trigger on one of them.

That case is nice but I prefer the separate zones of the antec fusion and again the 120mm fans. On the antec the power supply is over on its own side so that it doesn't have to either suck up hot air from inside the case and so run hotter and/or run its fans louder or suck air in from outside and make the inside of the case warmer. I hate small fans and the noise they make. If you compare equal types of fans a larger fan can move more air at a slower, quieter speed. Just the way it is. I like to make sure my components are cooled well especially with the warm video card and processor I have in my case. So for me I don't think I'll be buying a case with anything less than 120 mm fans any time soon. My 900 case has a 200mm fan

That case you linked to is also pretty expensive compared to the fusion, especially when you figure in the nice power supply that the fusion comes with. I only payed 120 for my antec fusion v2 a while back. I don't believe I would get much use from a small 4.3 inch touch screen. I would want at least 8 inches I think.

Different people like different things but for me the fusion was a good value and one of the better designed cases, especially thermally.
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post #2598 of 18891
7/16/08 at 4:50pm
So after reading just asmall portion of thread for about the last hour, I am suffering a severe case of information overload.

It really irks me that all of this technology is so hobbled by DRM that it is almost pointless to build a HTPC in the first place.

I mean what a batch of S&$t all of this HDCP crap is!

So if I understand the gist of it, in order to play h264 content my option is to buy this Asus sound card and a decent p45 MB with IGP and I'm set for stutter free 1080p operation?

Should I just wait another year for better hw options?

Would it make more sense to down convert 1080p material to 720p and be done with it?

I remember listening to a podcast from Leo Laporte's site (Security Now) that described the DRM madness that is Vista. Steve Gibson explained all of the DRM BS that was going to be shoved down our throats in order to display any HD content out of Vista. And It’s all come home to roost!

Are there any Linux options out there for HD audio/HTPC that are viable?
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post #2599 of 18891
7/16/08 at 5:22pm
John DRM was exactly one of my motivations in converting fully to Debian ten years ago. I am a real estate developer, but I learned it anyway, and now I prefer Kubuntu over everything else including OS X.

After extensive research I am presently designing my first HTPC, which will be DRM-free and I will have complete control over all my content. I've just bought the Silverstone GD02B-mt (takes full-sized cards) and tried to buy the DG45ID but it is simply unavailable yet. I'll have a 750GB Barracuda 7200.11, 4GB RAM, and that's about it. Have yet to decide whether a HD-PVR or R5000-HD for capture.

This will be my media machine (Cygnus, the swan) on which I'll be running MythTV to capture and transcode movies and shows to BluRay format as a DVR, off a Dish ViP211 which I bought on eBay for $126. Will soon buy another ViP211 (second tuner) as soon as I get my system built and running.

I am enforcing my rights under the Fair Use Doctrine as found by the Supreme Court in the Sony Betamax case, which corrupt Republicans tried to take away from us with the Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1999.

Hope this helps.
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post #2600 of 18891
7/16/08 at 6:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantumstate View Post

It appears that he somehow does not understand my #2603.

I saw that, I think most of those are out of my budget unfortunately. Let me rephrase that, if I get into HTPC, then its in my budget & at this point, i am planning to use it as a DVD player & a web browser (for the most part). I might start using it for more though.
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post #2601 of 18891
7/16/08 at 8:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xj-boonie View Post

Renethx, just wondering when you are going to post the update for mATX systems in post 2522.

In a couple of days, hopefully.
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post #2602 of 18891
7/16/08 at 8:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by etcarroll View Post

But I will be upgrading my AVR to to get latest hd sound codecs, so will need a hd sound card at that time. Do these cards pose any new/specific requirements on the mobo?

Absolutely no. You can use any mb with a vacant PCIe x1 (or x4, x8, x16) slot.
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post #2603 of 18891
7/16/08 at 8:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichTJ99 View Post

The mobo is a Asus P4C-800E Deluxe, 2 gigs ram, 250 gig sata drive, I have a few different AGP graphics card (X800 I think is the newest).

Is there a low profile Geforce 8600? Or something comperable that wont have an issue if the TV is off when the computer boots?

Also, what are the low profile graphic options these days? Any recommendations?

Your current system is too old to upgrade (Socket 478 mb & CPU, DDR SDRAM, AGP). You'd better build a new system.

If you don't mind an AMD system, there are two good systems with IGP:

- AMD 780G chipset system
- GeForce 8200/8300 chipset system

If you don't like IGP, you can always add a discrete card. If you stick to Intel, see my recommendation MicroATX Low-End II. Of course the graphics card can be GeForce 8400 GS (G98), 8500 GT, 8600 GT/GTS or higher. 8600 GT or higher is recommended for better deinterlacing. This is the only low-profile (ready) GeForce 8600 GT card. You have to find a low-profile bracket. Noise could be a problem with this small fan. You can find several low-profile fanless GeForce 8400 GS (G98)/8500 GT and Radeon HD 3450 cards.

I did a quick test if the TV is off when the computer boots with AMD 780G and GeForce 8600 GT. Both are OK. I can't guarantee it in your system though.
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post #2604 of 18891
7/16/08 at 9:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Tibbs View Post

So if I understand the gist of it, in order to play h264 content my option is to buy this Asus sound card and a decent p45 MB with IGP and I'm set for stutter free 1080p operation?

Sorry, you misunderstand DRM. Nowadays, playing BD movies in PC is pretty easy. If your display supports HDCP, then you can use any of my recommended systems for perfect BD playback.

Sound is the weakest part in PC. Right now the best sound you get from PC is 16bit/48kHz multichannel LPCM. The upcoming ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3 and Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater 7.1 (expected in late July and September respectively) supports full-resolution LPCM and Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master Audio.
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post #2605 of 18891
7/16/08 at 10:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Sorry, you misunderstand DRM. Nowadays, playing BD movies in PC is pretty easy. If your display supports HDCP, then you can use any of my recommended systems for perfect BD playback.

Sound is the weakest part in PC. Right now the best sound you get from PC is 16bit/48kHz multichannel LPCM. The upcoming ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3 and Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater 7.1 (expected in late July and September respectively) supports full-resolution LPCM and Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master Audio.


Well that is what I was getting at, the HD sound. That's what I want, but I was also speaking to the H264 issues that have been raised here and elsewhere rather than BD playback per se. (I guess I would just use my PS3 for BD playback anyway). There seems to be much discussion about whether or not those sound cards will be able to deliver the goods depending on the implementation of PAP embedded in the proprietary software the cards will ship with.

I guess that's where my frustration begins to set in. I know there will be driver issues with these apps initially, and so it turns into another period where we will become beta testers for this new DRM implementation.

I know that I will definitely wait for those sound cards to show up in the channel and see what people willing to take the plunge have to say about them.

My point with DRM is that it adds an extra layer of complexity t that interferes with getting the full HD content that was supposed to revolutionize home theatre.
I mean they have already cracked BD playback for all intents and purposes so what is the point?

This is what killed DVD-A and SACD as well. A disc that I can't separate individual audio tracks out to a server to play back in any order I want in high resolution audio SUCKS. This is not the 60's where you bought albums and listened to one or 2 sides at time on a turntable (yes I know vinyl is making somewhat of a comeback but that's a different topic) and I really liked having to run 5 patch cables in to my receiver from the player in order to listen to those formats (I know now that this has been fixed in 1.3 HDMI specs but that wasn't an option when I bought in).

Oh well, I guess I can wait some more for what I want to achieve, it just seems to never get there.
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post #2606 of 18891
7/17/08 at 12:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Tibbs View Post

Well that is what I was getting at, the HD sound. That's what I want, but I was also speaking to the H264 issues that have been raised here and elsewhere rather than BD playback per se. (I guess I would just use my PS3 for BD playback anyway). There seems to be much discussion about whether or not those sound cards will be able to deliver the goods depending on the implementation of PAP embedded in the proprietary software the cards will ship with.

I guess that's where my frustration begins to set in. I know there will be driver issues with these apps initially, and so it turns into another period where we will become beta testers for this new DRM implementation.

I know that I will definitely wait for those sound cards to show up in the channel and see what people willing to take the plunge have to say about them.

My point with DRM is that it adds an extra layer of complexity t that interferes with getting the full HD content that was supposed to “revolutionize” home theatre.
I mean they have already cracked BD playback for all intents and purposes so what is the point?

This is what killed DVD-A and SACD as well. A disc that I can't separate individual audio tracks out to a server to play back in any order I want in high resolution audio SUCKS. This is not the 60's where you bought albums and listened to one or 2 sides at time on a turntable (yes I know vinyl is making somewhat of a comeback but that’s a different topic) and I really liked having to run 5 patch cables in to my receiver from the player in order to listen to those formats (I know now that this has been fixed in 1.3 HDMI specs but that wasn't an option when I bought in).

Oh well, I guess I can wait some more for what I want to achieve, it just seems to never get there.

What H.264 issue are you referring to?

Part of confusion in PAP is due to the fact that the audio part of AACS rules was obscure at the time of Vista development and hence MS left PAP in an unfinished form. Perhaps we have to wait for Winodws 7 for a complete PAP solution in Windows.

SACD is banned in PC from the beginnng. Not sure about CPPM with a commercial software player/HDMI sound card in future.

DRM mess is a kind of trade off for the open architecture of PC. HTPC can do an amazing number of things that other solutions can't do. Go for a closed system the content provider originally intends, or accept mess and enjoy HTPC ... it's up to each user. And rambling on DRM here is not a good idea, that won't help anybody to build a HTPC (that's the purpose of this thread).
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post #2607 of 18891
7/17/08 at 4:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

What H.264 issue are you referring to?

Part of confusion in PAP is due to the fact that the audio part of AACS rules was obscure at the time of Vista development and hence MS left PAP in an unfinished form. Perhaps we have to wait for Winodws 7 for a complete PAP solution in Windows.

SACD is banned in PC from the beginning. Not sure about CPPM with a commercial software player/HDMI sound card in future.

DRM mess is a kind of trade off for the open architecture of PC. HTPC can do an amazing number of things that other solutions can't do. Go for a closed system the content provider originally intends, or accept mess and enjoy HTPC ... it's up to each user. And rambling on DRM here is not a good idea, that won't help anybody to build a HTPC (that's the purpose of this thread).

OK I see your point on the DRM, but Vista was supposed to have this PAP support from the get go (then again they were supposed to have 1394b support as well. I have yet to see it [nor do I care anymore as eSATA fills that void quite well]). But when I looked into this 2 years ago (building a HTPC), I kinda threw my arms up and walked away due to lots of the same kind of issues I still see mentioned now. I'd thought we would have been a lot farther along now then we are.

The h264 stuff I was referring to was the stuttery playback issues that some posters were struggling with 1080p material.

Clearly building and maintaining a HTPC is very much a "roll your own" proposition and I do get that, I only wish that there were some better solutions out there for the 1080p and HD audio stuff. I will just have to assess the trade offs involved and decide how much longer I want to wait before I commit to my project.

Your thread is nice info gathering point and I do appreciate your time and efforts in maintaining it, so with that I will end my rant against the evil empire that is DRM and return to the sidelines in my quest for HTPC nirvana
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post #2608 of 18891
7/17/08 at 4:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Absolutely no. You can use any mb with a vacant PCIe x1 (or x4, x8, x16) slot.

Great!

Guess I'll wait on the reviews for the ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3 later this month.

As always, thanks for the feedback.
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post #2609 of 18891
7/17/08 at 6:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantumstate View Post

John DRM was exactly one of my motivations in converting fully to Debian ten years ago. I am a real estate developer, but I learned it anyway, and now I prefer Kubuntu over everything else including OS X.

After extensive research I am presently designing my first HTPC, which will be DRM-free and I will have complete control over all my content. I've just bought the Silverstone GD02B-mt (takes full-sized cards) and tried to buy the DG45ID but it is simply unavailable yet. I'll have a 750GB Barracuda 7200.11, 4GB RAM, and that's about it. Have yet to decide whether a HD-PVR or R5000-HD for capture.

This will be my media machine (Cygnus, the swan) on which I'll be running MythTV to capture and transcode movies and shows to BluRay format as a DVR, off a Dish ViP211 which I bought on eBay for $126. Will soon buy another ViP211 (second tuner) as soon as I get my system built and running.

I am enforcing my rights under the Fair Use Doctrine as found by the Supreme Court in the Sony Betamax case, which corrupt Republicans tried to take away from us with the Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1999.

Hope this helps.

Well keep us updated on your progress. I would be interested to see how that pans out for you. Have you considered HD audio in your plans for your system? If so what have you found WRT linux implementation of multi-channel bit streamed HD audio? Is it even an option?
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post #2610 of 18891
7/17/08 at 7:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantumstate View Post

Unless you get the Intel DG45ID, which has built-in BluRay hardware decode for video and audio, and HD sound built right onto the board. Also has a 16bit PCIe, 2ea 1bits, and a regular PCI slot in a microATX.

Nowadays who uses IGP without hardware BD video decode? (Only Intel G35 users!) Hardware acceleration is a norm. Right now HA of G45 is crappy. We have to wait patiently for driver/software player development. Availability of the chipset is also in question (read my post; G45 may not be available in large quantities in Q3). Considering them, perhaps October or later is a good time to build a G45 system. Audio decode is done not by hardware but by a software player.

How about hardware deinterlacing of G45? G35 is extremely poor. I don't expect much improvement in G45.

By "HD sound built right onto the board", perhaps you mean multichannel LPCM HDMI audio. This is not a novel feature either. Please read my post if you want to know what other solutions are available now. We don't know yet what software player supports G45's PAP. Without a player, PAP is useless (every BD audio is downsampled to 16bit/48kHz).

All in all, the only advantage of the G45 system over the other IGP systems is perhaps the processor, but processor plays little role in HTPC if HA works. Yep, my opinion could change once I get a G45 mb.

FYI the basic unit of PCIe is called a "lane". For example, a link consisting of 16 lanes is usually expressed as "x16". Yup, 16 lanes allows 16 bits to be sent in each direction simultaneously, but nobody (except you) uses an expression like "a 16bit PCIe". DG45ID has one PCIe 2.0 x16 slot, two PCIe 1.1 x1 slots and a PCI slot.
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