Guide to Building a HTPC, Workstation and Server - Page 25

As between the 8500/8600GT and the 2600 Pro/XT with the current drivers, is one a clear choice for XP-based systems??

In my case (for the kids' system so I want reliability), I will use with a LiteOn BD drive mainly for BluRay disc playback via PowerDVD and some gaming.

thanks for a great thread.

I am running the 8600 GT with Windows XP and using it to play back Blu ray High def disks. I really like everything about the card and the quality. It has also been extremely reliable as I have run it for several hours a day at times and it never quits...

My .02

Cheers

Windows also supports RAID. And neither Linux nor Windows is bootable from an array without hardware support, i.e., a BIOS. I see no advantage of one OS over the other.

Okay great that you can point out the technicalities of it being only 6 years old but who cares really? 6 or 7 years, there's no difference. They're both still well over 5 years. And yes 6 years is OLD, period. Calling it not old is what's ridiculous. This is the world of computers we're talking about here, not A/V gear. Why don't you go back to using a PIII 1Ghz or a 1.6Ghz P4 or something? Why not use a Radeon 8500 or GeForce 3 for your video card? What about a 2x DVD writer or just a CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo drive for that matter? I'll tell you why not--because those things stink! No one would actually use those unless they had to, not in the first world anyway. Those things were "high end" when XP came out, sure, but are you going to use those now and tell me they aren't old? Are you going to say "hey, it's ridiculous to call the Radeon 8500 old!"? Gimme a break.

If people all "stuck with" their Radeon 8500s and PIIIs do you think we'd have anything we have today? Do you think there would be HDMI on PCs, C2D/Q CPUs, HDDs in the TBs, or even anywhere near as many HTPCs out there? When XP came out how many people really had an HTPC? Now they are far more common. But if everyone had said "hey I like my PC, it's not old, I'm not upgrading", where would we be now? We wouldn't even be having this discussion...


Wait say what now??? "Practically new OS"? Wait where's the smiley for LMAO? Jokes, practically new. Good one. I've been using XP since it was a beta; SP1/2 added a few things here and there but it certainly wasn't any "practically new" OS. I had a good laugh though.


Give over. MCE doesn't give some magical new lease on life and a new birthdate to XP. MCE is just a program. Now yes MS makes you install the entire thing as XP MCE, but that's only because of the original nature of MCE--it was largely an OEM thing the way MS had it. In fact even today, you can't technically buy MCE2005 unless it's 1. OEM version (which MCE before Vista has to be), 2. purchased "with hardware". They could have easily made it an installable program, like Office, but due to the way they set it up it was meant so people had to buy a PC with it on there already. With 2005 they loosened that up a bit, but it wasn't until Vista that it just became something anyone was expected to use.

In any event a program does not make the OS new. I mean when did the last Office come out? Year ago or something? I guess that means XP with the latest office is <1yr old?

Oh and SP3, that's coming out soon too, so I guess now XP will be a few days old after that. Oh wait by that logic XP with SP3 is actually so new it's negative days old! ROFL.

Again give us a break.

PS: Despite all your crazy calculations and dates, MS has already set the end of Mainstream support for XP as April '09, not 2035 or whatever you think it will be.


What on earth are you going on about now??? I mean really like we're talking about XP being 6 years old here, that's what it is. No need to mention every other version of windows that ever existed for purposes of utter irrlevancy. It's great that Windows Back-From-the-Dead edition or whatever else you can think up came out in 2006.5 or some nonsense like that, but that's not what we're talking about is it?

Again XP is old, support is ending soon and that's about that. XP won't even be available to OEMs after June of this year, btw--that's the end of supply dates to them from MS. I'm sure XP 3rd-World-Edition SP5 might come out after that, but again that doesn't make it new; and we don't live in the 3rd world here either.


LOL Vista Crusader Alright alright, I agree this is certainly not the time and place for a Vista/XP debate so that's about it for me on that topic. However I'm not really trying to be a Vista Crusader I'm just saying staying in yesterday helps no one.

As for the technical differences and benefits as I said there are many. There's a thread right on this very forum regarding the audio benefits, for example. Here it is, hopefully that points you in the right direction (and out of the past)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=713073

For a HTPC is there any difference besides watts using the Corsair VX or HX power supplies eg quieter or are both models a good choice.

This sounds brilliant. I really, really appreciated the near-exhaustive collection of hardware info and practical summaries and recommendations when I went to pick components to build my HTPC, and now I'm really missing not having a similar renethx(TM) compendium for the software part. AVS Forum itself suffers terribly from a "low SNR" problem. But what this thread does like no other I've ever seen is massage and cull all the raw data into something incredibly focused, clear, and authoritative. Please bring that same rigor to the software end at your earliest convenience!

AVS being the mess it is, and yet it still being the first stop of zillions of users, shows that the power of tons of users going out and fiddling with stuff and reporting back is pretty formidable. Is there any way we mere followers of the thread and askers of questions could help with compiling the definitive HTPC software guide? Say, by filling in data in an online spreadsheet/database, for example? Start out with rows for questions to be answered (e.g. "Plays .ISO files natively?" "Free as in beer?"), and columns representing as many frontends as possible (e.g. MCE, VMC, Meedios, JRMC, Media Portal, etc., etc.), and let the users go to town filling in and verifying information.

Well thank goodness for that!
If you're finished hijacking this thread, maybe you could elaborate on that statement? (Jeez, how many times do I have to ask?!) You say there are many advantages, then you give a single example and post a link to one thread. If you don't know what these technical advantages are, then you don't know that there are "many" of them. If you do know what they are, then how about actually contributing something useful to this thread?

That's incorrect; Linux is bootable from an array (though it's not generally advisable) but your point still doesn't make sense to me. Linux/BSD are free. Windows is not. Linux/BSD support robust, high performance RAID arrays in software, while Windows requires the expense of a hardware RAID controller. How can you not see an advantage there?

How the heck can an OS boot from a degraded array without having RAID support in the BIOS? Linux can't even load if the BIOS doesn't understand how to load the kernel.

why not? If you configure the software raid properly. You do can still boot from the other copy of the disk.

So .. it is just a matter how you configure the software raid. Both in Windows (I mean server version) and in Linux. Although it is been a longest time I have configure Linux but I do configure before when I am using RH9. So with advancement, the software raid should be even faster, better and easier.

The advantage of Linux software raid over windows is performance. In same configuration setup, we can tune the linux to run faster on software raid (small footprint) as compare to the overbloated windows. I tired that and have to fall back to buying a cheap ATA RAID that support at least RAID1 for my server OS. (I have HPT1810A supporting another 4 disk in RAID 5 for data)

The "other copy"? You're talking about RAID-1. What about RAID-10, 5 or 6 where the kernel is spread across multiple disks. It won't boot under any OS.


The only way to boot is to put the loadable software in a non-RAID (or RAID-1) partition.


"Overbloated". OK, we're getting into religious war territory, and I'll let it go. No need to get a discussion on who's parents are qualified to tweak Linux or just install Windows. Linux will win every time if you have the skills.

Cause for OS, software RAID 1 is recommended and not RAID10, 5 or whatever. Well .. of course, linux vs windows is extremely touchy topic. For me .. I am okie with both platform. cheers ...

Incorrect. First off, it has nothing to do with BIOS support - you're still thinking in terms of HW RAID. For a SW RAID (and I'm talking about RAID 5 here), you have to configure Linux so that the raid tools are loaded before the root filesystem is loaded (a pretty advanced configuration.) As I said before, it's generally not a good idea because if the RAID goes down it's way more difficult to recover, but the simple fact is that Linux certainly can boot from a RAID 5 array. That said, this whole discussion of booting from an array is still a red herring wrt the original issue of advantages of Linux+SW RAID over Windows+HW RAID.
I don't want to get into another debate here, this thread has been hijacked enough already, but there is a very real issue here that bears consideration... A *nix (and I'm lumping FreeBSD in there) kernel, file system, and RAID tools can be loaded into less than 80MB (and as little as 16MB) of memory. The processor overhead is very low, too (usually less than 20%). That leaves a ton of RAM and a lot of CPU horsepower to perform all the XOR operations - which on a Windows+HW RAID would be performed by a processor on the HW RAID controller which is a far weaker processor than the system CPU (even if you're using an old P3 or even P2 CPU).

Now, hang on a second. We seem to be in agreement. I said that you can't boot off a RAID-5. Then you seemed to describe how the RAID tools (which includes the kernel) have to be loaded before the filesystem (which is RAID'ed). That's what I've been saying. The initial code load CAN'T be loaded from a RAID array because the BIOS would have to understand the striping layout of the RAID tools, kernel, etc. However once that code is loaded, the BIOS is out of the picture and the rest of the OS can load from the RAID. What do we disagree about?


Yep, I agree completely that a RAID controller has a vastly weaker CPU. Software RAID is ALWAYS faster - if you have the CPU horsepower to spare, which you probably do, unless you're doing a lot of RAID-6 (Reed-Solomon, not EvenOdd or other wacky array types) writes. I think we're in agreement performance is not the main reason to buy a HW RAID controller - unless we're talking about writes. One huge reason to buy a RAID controller is to have a large, non-volatile, write-back cache. Good RAID controllers have a battery to backup hundreds of MB's of memory so that the write-backs can be coalesced and sorted for MUCH more efficient writes - especially on a RAID-5. You can't do battery-backed write-backs with a standard motherboard and a UPS.

I just wanted to chime in and thank renethx for this excellent guide. This is a terrific resource with a wealth of information.

I started off with the nVidia 8500GT, then I switched to the ATI 2600XT. I have with Mits DLP.

My reason for exchanging the 8500GT was the stability and lack of support in util software. My other reason was hoping that the 2600 XT would solve my overscan problem...but it appears this is the limitation on the DLP--there's no 1:1 pixel mapping unlike LCD.

So far, I'm in favor of ATI, especially when it comes to the software that support the card. ATI has the Catalyst Control Center(CCC), while nVidia has this nTune Control?. I think ATI CCC beat hands down when it come to functionality and usability. nTune interface is pretty crappy. Sorry, I don't mean to bash nVidia, the driver and the cards may by very good, but you also need util software that allow configuration and tweak. May be I just get a bad version of nTune, but I thinkg I downloaded from nVidia.

Anyway, the CCC has option that automatically OC your card in your set up. I was able to get OC the core up to 845. Not much, but some

Haven't test any HD video yet, still trying to workout the other software issue.

Sometime I wonder where he get his stuff too. I mean, this could be the technical reference for just about everything. Just the other day, I wanted to find out what the bandwidth of a 100Mbs link is, and there it was, under List of Bandwidth ...keep it up!!!

ES_Revenge,

Your points about Vista are not quite valid for an HTPC. There are audio benefits to Vista only if you use them, but that's about it. I have an ATI card so I have no problems with video for XP. There is also less DRM with XP.

Many of us see Windows XP like Windows 98 and Vista like Windows ME. This is not an uncommon analogy on the Internet. ME was certainly newer than '98, but not superior. Back then it wasn't HTPC use, but game compatibility. 98 had that in spades, both over ME and Win2000. Times of course changed and that is no longer the case.

Every bit of important HTPC hardware or software out there (TV tuners, front ends, most drivers, DVD software, encoders, SageTV, MyHD MDP-130, etc) in the past several years were made for XP. There is no denying that. Most of us want to make a computer act like a standalone device and compatibility is simply higher on XP today. I applaud that you can get everything you want to use to work on Vista, but that is not the case for everybody. IMO, you are simply not doing as much with your HTPC as others.

Will most of us run Vista in the future? (if not now) -- yes, probably. But I also don't see a need to go to Vista just yet. XP works fine, and in some cases which may be hard to pinpoint....even better. (At my work, we have to use XP. Vista doesn't work with many of our apps)

I don't intend to start a flame fight, so please don't take this as such. But I hope I vaguely illustrated the reasons some of us still like to use XP for this particular niche purpose.

-Robert

How important is it to get a memory kit 2gb vs 2 1gb sticks of same ram. I ask because in Oz things are harder to get hold of.

thanks I will have to track some down.

Yes, I think we're in agreement. And dollars are in favor of SW RAID as well; I'm sure we can agree on that, too.
Let's not sidetrack this thread any further with this OT issue. I know it can be done because I know other sysadmins who have done it, but I'm not sure I could even pull it off (and I certainly can't think of any reason I'd want to), let alone explain it to you. Maybe you could try googling "software RAID" and "bootable array" - I'm sure there's no shortage of info out there.

And now we join our regularly scheduled thread, in progress...

Rather than start a new thread (and since I took most of the recommendations from this thread), I wanted to post my planned HTPC shopping list to see if there was anything wrong with my combination. I'm going to be using this PC for gaming and for watching DVDs, movies off of the HD (x264, ripped DVDs, etc) and OTA HD programs. Here is my current list:

- Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz LGA 775 Quad-Core Processor
- GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 Rev. 2.0 LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard
- Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model BL2KIT12864AA804
- EVGA 512-P3-N801-AR GeForce 8800GT 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0
- Scythe SCNJ-1100P 120mm Sleeve CPU Cooler
- CORSAIR CMPSU-620HX ATX12V v2.2 and EPS12V 2.91 620W Power Supply
- SAMSUNG SpinPoint T Series HD501LJ 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (x2)
- COOLER MASTER COSMOS 1000 RC-1000-KSN1-GP Black/ Silver Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case

I haven't picked a DVD drive yet (should be fairly simple is it won't be HD), and I do need a suggestion for the OTA tuner card.

Thoughts?

Edit: I have an additional question with the operating system. Is it safe to run Vista yet on a HTPC+Gaming machine? I'm assuming that Home Premium is the way to go, but Newegg has a "system builders edition" for about half the price of the retail product. Any reason not to go this route?

The difference is that with the builder's edition, you're on you own for support, but since you are building the system that shouldn't be a problem. The other 'downside' is that apparently MS expects that the system builder edition is for a system that won't be changed significantly over time, so while you can do most upgrades, you can't swap out the motherboard on your system at a later time without having to hassle with getting another copy of Vista.

I bought the system builder version and an happy with it.

Ben

Hey Guys what about this MB --

DFI LP UT P35 T2R LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard

It's very highly rated on newegg!

This is my first post on these forums. I am avid else where. I keep reading about putting my htpc together but people keep saying gaming. Who cares about gaming, the point of an HTPC is to be just that a HTPC.

Before I get asked I have a gamer with qx9650 on a maximus formula with 8G G.skill watercooled platform. IT also has a promise 16 port sata raid card with 10T of storage and a 8800GT overclocked to hell. My 3Dmark06 is 15978 so with this out of the way.

I am dead set on 2 parts of my new HTPC. The powercolor 3850 extreme with an HDMI output. It does output sound in HD, I have confirmed that with powercolor. The other is the LG GGC-H20L for blu-ray and HD-DVD playback.


Where I am stuck is horse power. The powercolor works best with PCI-E 2.0, so the question is which direction do I go?

AMD or Intel
Intel I was considering a Q6600 w/ P35 board or X38 board.

Amd I was considering a X2 5000+ black edition CPU, but since I am ususally all about intel, do not know much about amd boards.

I think 4G of ram is plenty of throughput of HD content, sound and video.


Since this HTPC is going to be streaming from my upstairs gamer, through my home gigabit network (good to be a CCIE here). I do not need much of a HDD.


The case well, i have to consider it attractive but possibly have a remote. I do not care if I have to add a remote.

My 52" samsung DLP wil be connected through my Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver.

Ok this gives you the facts and background. What do you think?? I have read lots of good suggestions elsewhere, but I have heard this is the place to go to get the real facts. Thanks!