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Green artifacts on Pio 502MX  

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
I recently purchased a Pioneer 502MX plasma monitor and I'm really happy with the picture except for one small detail. I was watching a DVD last night and in scenes where there is a moving white object on a dark background, I can see a bright green edge where the white edge meets the black edge. It seems to be more pronounced on the trailing edge - that is, if the white object is moving from right to left across the screen, the green shows up on the right edge of the white object. It's as if the monitor can't decrease the green level as fast as the red/blue when moving from full-on (white) to full-off (black).

I've futzed around with the brightness and contrast settings and I can't seem to eliminate it. I've seen it on a number of DVDs and doesn't show up when I freeze the frame, so I'm thinking it is something to do with the display rather than the content or my DVD player. Any ideas?
post #2 of 20
Thread Starter 
Called Pioneer and they are dispatching a tech to come look at my PDP502MX. They have never heard of a problem like this, but apparently another AVS reader (PF) has seen something similar on a Pioneer 505:

From his post:
>>
Afterward, I wandered across the street to see the old Pioneer 505 at the 5th Avenue The Wiz store. It's very punchy in a brightly lit room, but the black level leaves something to be desired. I also noticed a green edge outline whenever a lighter image was set against, or next to, a darker one. Perhaps it was coming from the HD signal itself rather than the monitor. Anyway, it was very annoying especially with sports footage -- to me, the psychological equivalent of the rainbows one sees with most DLP projectors.
<<

That is exactly the problem that I'm seeing with my new monitor. I wrote a test app for my laptop that moves a white 128x128 pixel block horizontally across a black 1024x768 screen. I ran the VGA output from my laptop into the D-SUB input on my 502MX. It demonstrates the problem beautifully. On the trailing edge of the moving white block, there is a bright green smear that should be black. The length of the smear varies depending on the horizonal speed of the white block. Upon closer inspection, the leading edge of the white block appears to be magenta, but only a pixel or two wide (about a 1/3 of the size of the green streak).

Anyway, hopefully the tech will be able to make some sense out of this in the next day or so. I'll let you guys know what happens. This might be something to keep an eye out for if you're considering buying one of the Pioneer plasma monitors.
post #3 of 20
I have a similiar problem with my 503 HDE... I managed to get it out of the way with contrast and color, temp etc...just with the settings.
But it still sometimes seems to appear...

Mine is not green, but it's purple..
So maybe and it only appears using COMPONENT output from my dvd player.
If I use SCART-RGB...I don't see it..but then I can't use my progressive scan.
So try to play with settings...

I don't know if you have the disc.. but on THIN RED LINE, the chapter when

Sean Penn and Jim Caviezel are in the boat together and Sean is talking to him ( I think it's chapter 3)..in the beginning of the movie..it's really noticeable with me...(actually, that's when I first saw it.)

I'm gonna remove all the red out of my DVD player settings (dvd 737)..and see if that works even better...

Let me know your findings or if anybody else knows anything about this...plz help US!

Erwin
post #4 of 20
I run a 502MXE with an Arcam DV88 DVD through S-video, and I have to say I have also "seen the green". It's VERY apparent on the Matrix, which has lots of high contrast black backgound/white shirts foreground, coupled with the general green caste of the film.

You can reduce it by setting the levels a little softer (or get it calibrated by an ISF guy), but I believe the green motion "swooshes" on trailing edges are an inherent part of any plasma make-up; the cells do not switch off instantly, but decay. Your eye just happens to see them decaying on trailing edges, and I guess white/black edges are harder for the diplay cells to manage.

Hope this helps.

Bruce
post #5 of 20
Thread Starter 
I thought about this a bit more and I think what I'm seeing is a result of a delay in the green channel. When pixels on the screen go from black to white, I'm seeing a magenta (red+blue, no green) image for a number of frames. When it goes from white to black, I see a green image for a number of frames thereafter.

It's not a cable length issue because I see this with the VGA input and my VGA cable is certainly one length.

I'm just hoping that there is an internal adjustment for this green delay and that the tech they are sending out knows how to properly set it. I certainly don't want to be going through a number of shipments of monitors in order to weed out the bad ones.

Bruce,
You'd think that if this were common behavior for plasma monitors that I would have received more replies from other plasma owners about this. That leads me to believe that either our monitors are out of adjustment, or that this is some quirk that is limited to the Pioneer displays.

I'll let you know what the tech visit reveals.
post #6 of 20
Tomorrow I will post my 503 settings...
I reduced the purple (red-magenta) glow alot.
And I want to know if your green will get reduced too.
I hope it's not a glitch in my screen, To get it exchanged will be a big problem I think....a screen worth around $ 12k should not have this problem though..Please post or mail your findings:


e.perk@adch.nl (work)
enygma@multiweb.nl (home)

THX,
Erwin
post #7 of 20
Thanx Digby,

I'd be really interested to see what the Pioneer tech. has to say on the matter.

BTW, I had my 502 ISF'd last month. If you want I can post the settings on the list. Although I doubt that they match set-to-set, it might give you a starting point?

Bruce
post #8 of 20
Thread Starter 
The tech was at my house this morning and agreed that the green trailing artifact is pretty hideous. He was on the phone for a while with the Pioneer folks in California and no one has ever seen anything like this. He also mentioned that it's rare that anyone would test a moving image for artifacts as they basically use static display test screens.

There isn't an adjustment for this sort of thing, so he's going to come back next week with a new processing board as the only thing they can think of is that it might be the green channel's ADC.

In the meantime he wants to get a copy of my sample app to give to Pioneer. I'm going to clean it up a bit so that it will run on any version of DirectDraw and add in the ability to change the color, size, and speed of the object that moves across the screen. If you want to get a copy of it to try on your plasmas, send me e-mail: DigbyM@bigfoot.com.
post #9 of 20
Thread Starter 
The tech was back at my house today with two brand new analog boards. He replaced both of them and, using my test app, it didn't make one bit of difference. He's going to send the test app to Pioneer engineering in California and let them see if they can make sense out of it.

This is becoming a real pain. I pay $7K for a new PDP502MX over 3 weeks ago and the thing still isn't working right. Oh, and it's got two dead pixels to boot.

I'm going to keep updating this thread to let you guys know how Pioneer handles this. If not for the investigation in possibly revealing a problem with other folk's plasma monitors, for the customer service experience. I'll let you know what happens and how much "barking" I have to do to get satisfaction.

I've cleaned up the test app that reveals this defect and will send it (C++ source code included) for all those that ask. Send e-mail to DigbyM@bigfoot.com.
post #10 of 20
Hi Digby,

Sorry to hear that the Pioneer guy couldn't help you. As I mentioned in my previous post, I have an ominous feeling that this is an inherent "property" of plasma screens (just as "rainbow effect" is with DLPs).

Getting the PDP calibrated and adjusted to the right levels will help ( a lot!), but I think you may find that Pioneer will be non-plussed. Can I ask if the tech. that Pioneer sent out to you was more used to setting up data-displays than home cinemas? You may have the wrong guy for the job!

Good luck, and let me know how you get on.

Bruce
post #11 of 20
Thread Starter 
Attached to this post is my "artist's interpretation" of what my monitor looks like moving a white 128x128 pixel block horizontally across a black background at a rate of 8 pixels per frame (480 pixels/sec). The block is moving from right to left.

You tell me why the green is persisting and the red and blue are not. If you look closely at the leading edge you'll see a slight purple color. This is because the green is slow at coming on as well as going off. I don't think this should be something to just live with on plasma displays. I can tell by the number of really critical videophiles on this list that they are not seeing this problem, otherwise they would be screaming. It's a pretty obvious artifact and no one would be buying plasma displays to display moving images if this was something that was inherent to the technology. It's that bad.

The person sent to investigate my problem was very competent and has worked on Pioneer and Fujitsu displays for years. He and Pioneer engineering are both aware that I'm using the monitor in a home theater setting. Heck, Pioneer selected this guy, not me. I don't really care if they send 5 juggling rodeo clowns and an elephant parade to my house as long as this problem gets fixed.

I'll keep you guys posted.
LL
post #12 of 20
Dig: perhaps a serious ISF calibration specifically geared towards the green driver, as well as the ther colors, is in order. They can go into the service menu of the plasma and change the values and speed at which colors get delivered to the monitor. Just a thought.
post #13 of 20
Thread Starter 
eric,

Interesting idea. I've looked at the service manual and from what I've seen by entering Integrator mode, or by using the commands available via the RS-232 interface, there doesn't seem to be anything specific to setting the delivery timing of a color component. Perhaps I overlooked something, but I sure don't want to pay $400 or so to have someone come out and adjust a monitor, only to find out the monitor is defective. In fact, I don't think I should have to pay anyone to fix this problem at all. It's brand spanking new.

I've been through both the AVIA and VE calibration procedures and neither has affected this problem. My red seems to be leaning towards orange, but that's about it.

I'm hopeful that I will be able to reach Pioneer on the phone tomorrow and find out what they are going to do about this. I'll ask about a color timing adjustment though.

A number of folks have requested my test program and I've sent it to them. Haven't heard much back though. I'll post details when I get them.
post #14 of 20
Hello All

I am an ISF guy and calibrated my PDP502 that's not the problem of the glowing
Also there are no timing options available on the PDP502
I think that the green phosphor is glowing to long
They have the same problems with CRT projectors for simulation they use an other phosphor that cool's down much quicker
Another way to see the problem is to hook up your PC and move the mouse pointer over the screen
All the pioneers I have seen have this problem

Rob
post #15 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the info, Rob. That actually makes sense from what I'm seeing. What would be the reason a display manufacturer would use a slower green phosphor on a plasma display? I suppose if the display were used mainly for static images, you'd never see this artifact. Maybe the 500 series monitors weren't designed for high-contrast moving images?

If this truly is the cause my problem, the monitor is going to be boxed up and returned. Some folks that have run my test program on their 503s have reported that they are seeing this too.

Why does buying one of these things have to be so difficult? Dead pixels, green trailing, burn-in, crosstalk... It's like you're rolling the dice with your $10K. I need a vacation. :)
post #16 of 20
I was just at Harvey Electronics in Paramus, NJ a few days ago. They have a very nice display of Plasma panels in one room connected to HDnet. Watching the demo loop of indoor Lacrosse you could see the same image lag on all of the panels. This could be seen equally on the Fujitsu 5002, Pioneer 1000, Marantz (NEC) 61", Panasonic, Runco, and Sony Panels.

Depending on the scene being viewed we were able to view Red, Green, and Blue trails from fast moving action. The phosphors are very slow and have a high degree of latency (memory) to them which is why you see this take place. When you turn the display off you will see an image remain on the panel for about 30-60 seconds before it goes away. This is the same related type of problem that you are seeing when the panel is on.
post #17 of 20
ghbliss: just out of curiosity, which set do you feel looked best in that room?
post #18 of 20
Thread Starter 
ghibliss:

I beginning to think the phosphor is the only explanation that makes sense. In my case, the excitement and decay time are drastically different for green compared with red & blue, and that is what is causing the trouble. I also would have thought that if the phosphor mix would have been bad that this would have affected a number of Pioneer displays and Pioneer would have heard about this by now. (And that's their stance too, BTW)

I don't know if you've taken the time to look at the jpeg I posted earlier or run my sample application. With my test app I move a white block across a black background an notice a bright green tail behind the block. But, if I animate a red or blue block there is no tailing artifact. If I animate a green block, there is the same amount of green tail as there is with the white block. That tells me that if it's indeed a phosphor issue, then it's the green phosphor that is out of spec on my monitor.
post #19 of 20
Hello Digby

Your green phosphor is not out of spec it's just the way it is you can do nothing
It's one of the weak thing's of pioneer's plasma
What i did is High contrast off and calibrate contrast and brightness whit AVIA
The people ho have the problem with red and blue or purple have a to high contrast setting

Rob
post #20 of 20
Thread Starter 
The engineers at Pioneer have run my test software on a monitor at their location. They too see the green artifacts and admitted that this is a "feature" of their plasma monitors due to the decay time of the green phosphor. Since I have a 502MX, I asked if this would still be a problem on the newer 503CMX displays and they admitted that it would. That's all I need to know. I'm going to return my monitor.

In the meantime, I'm going to visit a local showroom that has Fujitsu, Pioneer, and Panasonic plasma displays and take in a DVD that I've burned that will demonstrate this problem.

I'd like to thank everyone here who took the time to run my test that exposes this quirk with the Pioneer displays, as well as the replies from the folks with suggestions on how to work around it (or to just live with it).
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