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1:1 pixel mapping

post #1 of 22
11/30/07 at 4:05pm
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Hello guys i am new in here. I recently bought a Panasonic TH42PH10 plasma which i ma taking delivery of this coming monday but I read a little about pixel mapping and wondered how this affects the picture quality I might get? I wont be using PC, just a digital cable box which outputs 720p, 1080i and SD pictures plus an Oppo 981 player. Some people tell me the PH10 doesnt do 1:1 pixel matching , others tell me it will but only via DVI, so i am wondering what difference it would make particularly if I decided to buy Blueray player at some point in the future?Am I going to get a rather blurry picture, less defined?Would I be better cancelling the order and buying a TH-42PZ70 which i know does the mapping?On the other hand the pH10 is much better for calibration so i am in a bit of a quandary.Thanks
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post #2 of 22
11/30/07 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by donmaico View Post

Some people tell me the PH10 doesnt do 1:1 pixel matching

The resolution of the TH42PH10 is 1024x768, a non-standard HDTV resolution. As there is no native 1024x768 source the issue of 1:1 pixel-mapping is moot. No such thing. Every single video source will be up or down-scaled by your TV to it's odd resolution.
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if I decided to buy Blueray player at some point in the future?

The TH42PH10 will downscale an HD-DVD player to its lower resolution and therefore will not do full justice to the HD-DVD format.
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Would I be better cancelling the order and buying a TH-42PZ70

This unit is a true 1920x1080 unit that can 1:1 pixel-map to an HD-DVD player and to 1080i HDTV channels. It will not 1:1 pixel map to the 720p HDTV channels (ABC/FOX/ESPN/NatGeo), SDTV or SD-DVDs.
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post #3 of 22
12/1/07 at 1:10am
Thread Starter 
Thanks
I am beginning to see that a processor is the answer to getting a really sharp picture otherwise what I'll get will be probably rather soft , not overtly so but noticeable.Blue ray would be a waste of money unless I change this set for a PZ70 which would still have to upscale my SD source to 1080p. The pH10 though , has better calibration potential in terms of color accuracy so maybe a video processor is the , albeit expensive, answer
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post #4 of 22
12/1/07 at 5:44am
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=936653 is the current 1:1 pixel mapping discussion. However, don't expect night and day differences with an external video processor. And please don't start making assumptions about anything until you've actually seen your plasma and calibrated it properly. Subtle differences are not going to be very visible on a 42" screen.

larry
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post #5 of 22
12/1/07 at 6:24am
There is a children's fable about turning straw to gold. It's a fable. There is no free lunch!

Every TV has a built-in video processor ... buying an external processor isn't going to make a whole lot of difference.

The best processing is no processing!

Match your display native resolution to the source resolution; that will maximize your PQ!
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post #6 of 22
12/2/07 at 3:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

is the current 1:1 pixel mapping discussion. However, don't expect night and day differences with an external video processor. And please don't start making assumptions about anything until you've actually seen your plasma and calibrated it properly. Subtle differences are not going to be very visible on a 42" screen.

larry

Thanks for the link
I have come to the conclusion that the cost of processor itself which is about the same as the display, does not warrant buying particularly as there would only be marginal improvements. I did get to demo the set using my Oppo 981 and it produced very acceptable results - just a little soft round the edges which I guess one has to accept.Most of my viewing will be in Pal SD( I live in the UK btw). We have a few hD channels @ 720p/1080i so presumably with them I can expect a much sharper picture.As I now see it buying a 42PZ70 would be pointless unless I intended watching loads of movies on Blue ray. The upscaling from SD would be even greater still
Thanks
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post #7 of 22
12/2/07 at 5:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

There is a children's fable about turning straw to gold. It's a fable. There is no free lunch!

Every TV has a built-in video processor ... buying an external processor isn't going to make a whole lot of difference.

The best processing is no processing!

Match your display native resolution to the source resolution; that will maximize your PQ!

Thank goodness for 1080p source now, or everybody would be output of luck. Also, now I see why you think you can get a 1:1 with 1080i source. Actually, 1:1 pixel mapping originally meant (and still does) matching the input signal directly to the pixels (frame buffer) at same refresh rate. That is the only way you can (almost, depending on display) guarantee 1:1 mapping using the mathematical definition of 1:1 mapping vs conceptual. And it looks like in the future with 1080p24 source and 72hz and 120hz displays, real 1:1 mapping won't be done. High performance video processing will most likely "interpolate" the 24 frames per second into something higher for a "smoother" look as opposed just repeating frames.

larry
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post #8 of 22
12/2/07 at 6:24am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Thank goodness for 1080p source now, or everybody would be output of luck. Also, now I see why you think you can get a 1:1 with 1080i source. Actually, 1:1 pixel mapping originally meant (and still does) matching the input signal directly to the pixels (frame buffer) at same refresh rate. That is the only way you can (almost, depending on display) guarantee 1:1 mapping using the mathematical definition of 1:1 mapping vs conceptual. And it looks like in the future with 1080p24 source and 72hz and 120hz displays, real 1:1 mapping won't be done. High performance video processing will most likely "interpolate" the 24 frames per second into something higher for a "smoother" look as opposed just repeating frames.

larry

yes but 1080p displays only make sense with Full hD sources don't they?
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post #9 of 22
12/2/07 at 6:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

There is a children's fable about turning straw to gold. It's a fable. There is no free lunch!

Every TV has a built-in video processor ... buying an external processor isn't going to make a whole lot of difference.

The best processing is no processing!

Match your display native resolution to the source resolution; that will maximize your PQ!

Yes I know but from what I can make out only the full HD can do that and then only with Blue Ray and Hd dvd sources.
Why the heck didnt they just start by making sets with a 720p resolution instead of all these weird 736p etc ones?
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post #10 of 22
12/2/07 at 8:11am
Does anyone know if the samsung 5084 does 1:1 mapping?
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post #11 of 22
12/2/07 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by donmaico View Post

yes but 1080p displays only make sense with Full hD sources don't they?

No, you will see major improvements with 1080i content as well. provided that you're close enough to see the additional detail.
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post #12 of 22
12/3/07 at 1:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

No, you will see major improvements with 1080i content as well. provided that you're close enough to see the additional detail.

I am led to believe the difference are quite small nad as oyu say one would have ot sit quite close to notice them.As I normally sit about 9 feet away it wont be an issue. where hte pH10 reallt scores is on
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post #13 of 22
12/3/07 at 1:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

No, you will see major improvements with 1080i content as well. provided that you're close enough to see the additional detail.

I am led to believe the difference are quite small and as you say one would have ot sit quite close to notice them.As I normally sit about 9 feet away it wont be an issue. Where the pH10 really scores is on SD material due its superior processing abilities.Quote from someone who installs them:

Re: Panny PH10 or PZ70
PH10 without doubt.

I suggested that the difference with detail between the PX70 and PZ70 was very slight with blue ray, now several reviews in the last few days say the same thing. The PH10 is far better than the PX 70 so the difference with between the PH and PZ should be very small. The fact that the processing of the PH is superior to the PZ makes it a no brainer to me.

PH10 without doubt.
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post #14 of 22
12/3/07 at 11:17am
I just meant that it's a misconception that you need a 1080p source to get improvements with a 1080p set. Your plasma may be far better than many 1080p displays overall, since resolution is just one of many factors that determine picture quality.
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post #15 of 22
12/3/07 at 1:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

I just meant that it's a misconception that you need a 1080p source to get improvements with a 1080p set. Your plasma may be far better than many 1080p displays overall, since resolution is just one of many factors that determine picture quality.

oh Ok thanks. toolk delivery of my PH10 today but unfortunately after installing two HDMI blades and connecting two sources I cant get a signal for love nor money, tried evrything i could think of .Nothing wrong with the sources, The instruction booklet makes no mention of HDMI .I am thinking it can only be the blades or cables. The inputs are weird: number three does nothing ,with two I had dvd picture for a while but now nothing, nmber 1 splits into A&B . A is for S video I know that works but B is composite and I dont use that . Two tells me "no signal" whilst three doesnt tell me a thing.Very frustrating
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post #16 of 22
12/3/07 at 7:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by donmaico View Post

oh Ok thanks. toolk delivery of my PH10 today but unfortunately after installing two HDMI blades and connecting two sources I cant get a signal for love nor money, tried evrything i could think of .Nothing wrong with the sources, The instruction booklet makes no mention of HDMI .I am thinking it can only be the blades or cables. The inputs are weird: number three does nothing ,with two I had dvd picture for a while but now nothing, nmber 1 splits into A&B . A is for S video I know that works but B is composite and I dont use that . Two tells me "no signal" whilst three doesnt tell me a thing.Very frustrating

Did you unplug the display down after installing the blades? Your symptoms are similar to what will happen if that has not been done.

Additionally, the HDMI board will not function in slot three unless you set the jumper properly.

Also, just FYI, you can now get a new dual-HDMI blade for your display, and it costs only a little more than the single port blade(s) you apparently have based on your description. This means you could have 4 HDMI ports, or you could free up one slot for another input board.
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post #17 of 22
12/4/07 at 3:18am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

Did you unplug the display down after installing the blades? Your symptoms are similar to what will happen if that has not been done.

Additionally, the HDMI board will not function in slot three unless you set the jumper properly.

Also, just FYI, you can now get a new dual-HDMI blade for your display, and it costs only a little more than the single port blade(s) you apparently have based on your description. This means you could have 4 HDMI ports, or you could free up one slot for another input board.

I didn't plug the display until I had fixed the blades in place. As for the jumpers I am not sure what you mean as there is nothing in the booklet about them.
I did think about the dual inputs but they arent going to be obtainable till the new year ( according to the dealer)and I didnt want the display hanging about the house till then. Tbh I only have two sources to worry about. If I decided to get some other I could buy an HDMI switch.
BTW I got input two working after I changed the output settings on cable box.
Thanks anyway
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post #18 of 22
12/4/07 at 4:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by donmaico View Post

I didn't plug the display until I had fixed the blades in place. As for the jumpers I am not sure what you mean as there is nothing in the booklet about them.

The jumper is an undocumented feature. It allows the HDMI board to operate in slot three.

Your configuration, based on your description is:

slot 1: composite/s-video dual-input board
slot 2: HDMI board
slot 3: HDMI board

Is that correct? Technically speaking, that is an unsupported configuration for the display. If you read the documentation, you will see that the HDMI board does not function in slot 3. In fact, neither does the composite board, so no matter which slots you select, tradionally, if you needed to use the above boards together you would be out of luck. However, if you set the jumper on the HDMI board in slot 3, it will work. I've never done this before, I've only read about it on the forum, so I can't help you find where it is. But if you search, or PM Techniwizard, you should be able to get it sorted out.

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I did think about the dual inputs but they arent going to be obtainable till the new year ( according to the dealer)and I didnt want the display hanging about the house till then. Tbh I only have two sources to worry about. If I decided to get some other I could buy an HDMI switch.
BTW I got input two working after I changed the output settings on cable box.
Thanks anyway

Sounds like the cable box was set to 480i - an unsupported resolution for HDMI on this display.

In any case, input number two works because the HDMI board is supported in that slot. You won't get input three working unless you set the jumper as I describe above.

The reason I suggested the new dual HDMI board was so that you could get your two HDMI ports without having to worry about slot three, and also just to let you know they existed in case you were not aware. Although the nice thing about using two boards is that you can do PIP between the two HDMI inputs. That will not be possible using the two inputs on the dual HDMI board.

Good luck.
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post #19 of 22
12/4/07 at 7:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

The jumper is an undocumented feature. It allows the HDMI board to operate in slot three.

Your configuration, based on your description is:

slot 1: composite/s-video dual-input board
slot 2: HDMI board
slot 3: HDMI board

Is that correct? Technically speaking, that is an unsupported configuration for the display. If you read the documentation, you will see that the HDMI board does not function in slot 3. In fact, neither does the composite board, so no matter which slots you select, tradionally, if you needed to use the above boards together you would be out of luck. However, if you set the jumper on the HDMI board in slot 3, it will work. I've never done this before, I've only read about it on the forum, so I can't help you find where it is. But if you search, or PM Techniwizard, you should be able to get it sorted out.



Sounds like the cable box was set to 480i - an unsupported resolution for HDMI on this display.

In any case, input number two works because the HDMI board is supported in that slot. You won't get input three working unless you set the jumper as I describe above.

The reason I suggested the new dual HDMI board was so that you could get your two HDMI ports without having to worry about slot three, and also just to let you know they existed in case you were not aware. Although the nice thing about using two boards is that you can do PIP between the two HDMI inputs. That will not be possible using the two inputs on the dual HDMI board.

Good luck.

Many thanks for the reply. If it wasnt for the fact you mentioned the jumper I wouldnt have known what to ask the dealer who, it has to be said, have not been as helpful as they could be(I had to find out things through trial ,error, emails, phone calls and posts in here). Not exactly great service for an expensive product but then the UK is not known for doing that Anyway I shan't moan any longer as the tv is now correctly set up with regards to inputs. The jumper is found to the righthand , towards the front, side of the blade. Really its just a yellow switch which you push to one side and hey presto! All that it needs now is to have it properly ISF calibrated by the same people and i'll be away.You wouldnt happen to know what the best contrast / brightness settings are would you?
Thanks
Btw with regards to the cable box, I had it outputting HD component ( for my last tv)and i had forgotten, so I changed that to 1080i . The DVDp was outputting some crazy figure but seems ok now on 576p which means it does the interlacing whilst the tv does the rest.
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post #20 of 22
12/4/07 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by donmaico View Post

Many thanks for the reply. If it wasnt for the fact you mentioned the jumper I wouldnt have known what to ask the dealer who, it has to be said, have not been as helpful as they could be(I had to find out things through trial ,error, emails, phone calls and posts in here). Not exactly great service for an expensive product but then the UK is not known for doing that Anyway I shan't moan any longer as the tv is now correctly set up with regards to inputs. The jumper is found to the righthand , towards the front, side of the blade. Really its just a yellow switch which you push to one side and hey presto! All that it needs now is to have it properly ISF calibrated by the same people and i'll be away.

Great to hear, donmaico. Yours is the first detailed description of this jumper (actually just a mircoswitch it seems) I've seen. Glad you got it working, and hopefully others in the same situation will be able to find this thread in the future and use it as a guide.

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You wouldnt happen to know what the best contrast / brightness settings are would you?

Well, I have an old 7UY model, and the glass and processing have evolved since then, so I don't think my settings would be of much worth. However, if you search the forum, you may find some settings from other 10UK or 9UK owners that would be of some help. Cheers.
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post #21 of 22
12/4/07 at 5:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by donmaico View Post

You wouldnt happen to know what the best contrast / brightness settings are would you?

There is only one correct setting of those controls (you are not supposed to use them like 'volume' controls) and those settings can only be determined by using a calibration disk (DVE, etc.) or even the THX setup menu found on THX movies. The settings can be different for each source, dependent on the equipment. To calibrate your satellite/cable box, use the test patterns broadcast by HD-NET very early on Monday> mornings.
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post #22 of 22
12/5/07 at 1:45am
Thread Starter 
Well thanks for the help guys. I have widdled around with a controls a bit (following someone else's settings) and it looks better already but I am going to get one of those ISF guys to do a pro job on it . There are three in the UK that I am aware of and two live not too far from me so I shall have sneak one in whilst my wife is at work.They charge about £300 for the service which is more than 600 US (my wife would hit the roof at that cost) so its by stealth only LOL
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