AVS › AVS Forum › Gaming & Content Streaming › Home Theater Gaming › PlayStation Area › Considering ditching the 360 and getting PS3, but not everthing can be 1080p? Why?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Considering ditching the 360 and getting PS3, but not everthing can be 1080p? Why?  

post #1 of 31
11/30/07 at 9:28pm
Thread Starter 
The only thing I like about the 360 is the ability to output everything at 1080p. What I don't like is sending back in the console, every month now it seems. I'm on my 3rd 360 and looks like I'm going to have to go for #4, acting funny again!

I'm tired of it, and want another solution. I want the console to output the 1080p and not the tv. I don't like lag and outputting 720p and having the TV scale to 1080p causes lag Not all 360 games are 1080p, but at least all games can be output as 1080p. The 360 can do 100% 1080p, but the PS3 can't? Why? The 360 had over a year head start, with the PS3 coming out a whole year later. So what gives? Am I not understanding something? Do I have to wait for a version of the PS3 which supports 1080p game scaling?

AVS Top Picks

post #2 of 31
11/30/07 at 9:53pm
Actually, the PS3 can upscale any game. Like everything else with the console, Sony's given developers a lot of freedom. The console itself can upscale no problem, but it's up to individual developers to include upscaling capacity.
post #3 of 31
11/30/07 at 10:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

The only thing I like about the 360 is the ability to output everything at 1080p. What I don't like is sending back in the console, every month now it seems. I'm on my 3rd 360 and looks like I'm going to have to go for #4, acting funny again!

I'm tired of it, and want another solution. I want the console to output the 1080p and not the tv. I don't like lag and outputting 720p and having the TV scale to 1080p causes lag Not all 360 games are 1080p, but at least all games can be output as 1080p. The 360 can do 100% 1080p, but the PS3 can't? Why? The 360 had over a year head start, with the PS3 coming out a whole year later. So what gives? Am I not understanding something? Do I have to wait for a version of the PS3 which supports 1080p game scaling?

I prefer the native output, most HDTVs can handle 720p and my understanding is that it doesn't upconvert to 1080p but dispalys 720p. For minimal lag this is the ideal setup. You can pick up a video processor to do the scaling, but anything else will add a few frames of delay into the game. I say take the 720p and enjoy the lag free gaming.

I'm not sure if the 360 has any frame delays for the scaling, but nothing is free as I understand it. hope that helps.

-Splints
post #4 of 31
12/1/07 at 6:14am
No, most TVs these days are fixed pixel digital TVs. LCDs, plasmas, DLPs and LCOS displays must all upscale video to their native resolution.

On a 1080p TV, a 720p signal will be upscaled inside the TV. 1080p will likely not need to be scaled.

The 360's upscaling delay is imperceptible, as is the PS3's, I'm sure. TVs all have varying delays.
post #5 of 31
12/1/07 at 6:19am
Unless your TV has a 1:1 pixel mapping option, it will be scaling it anyways (and adding lag). Most digital TVs will scale to put in a little overscan.

Most newer games will support 1080p if you de-select 720p and 1080i. The last 4 games I have purchased work this way (R&C, CoD4, Uncharted, Assassin's Creed).

I would expect most games to work this way going forward.
post #6 of 31
12/1/07 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikechorney View Post


I would expect most games to work this way going forward.

Amen
post #7 of 31
12/1/07 at 7:23am
When a 1280 X 720 game on PS3 that supports scaling (most do not, even many recent holida releases do not) don't they scale to 960x1080 effectively tossing out pixels from the original 1280?
post #8 of 31
12/1/07 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

The only thing I like about the 360 is the ability to output everything at 1080p. What I don't like is sending back in the console, every month now it seems. I'm on my 3rd 360 and looks like I'm going to have to go for #4, acting funny again!

I'm tired of it, and want another solution. I want the console to output the 1080p and not the tv. I don't like lag and outputting 720p and having the TV scale to 1080p causes lag Not all 360 games are 1080p, but at least all games can be output as 1080p. The 360 can do 100% 1080p, but the PS3 can't? Why? The 360 had over a year head start, with the PS3 coming out a whole year later. So what gives? Am I not understanding something? Do I have to wait for a version of the PS3 which supports 1080p game scaling?

Funny....in the Xbox forum you said you actually still have your original console that you've sent in twice. What gives?
post #9 of 31
12/1/07 at 8:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankJ.Cone View Post

When a 1280 X 720 game on PS3 that supports scaling (most do not, even many recent holida releases do not) don't they scale to 960x1080 effectively tossing out pixels from the original 1280?

I don't think it loses pixels, I think the game renders at 960x1080 (which is actually 12% more pixels than 720p) and then scales to 1920x1080.
post #10 of 31
12/1/07 at 8:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankJ.Cone View Post

When a 1280 X 720 game on PS3 that supports scaling (most do not, even many recent holida releases do not) don't they scale to 960x1080 effectively tossing out pixels from the original 1280?

Most 720p 360 games don't render at 1280x720 no matter what the output resolution, but I don't see anyone complaining about that
post #11 of 31
12/1/07 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abaddon View Post

Most 720p 360 games don't render at 1280x720 no matter what the output resolution, but I don't see anyone complaining about that

Not thast he asked about 360 games but none of them are as low as 960 (None of the 720P PS3 games that are not really 720P go as low as 960 either. And then the 360 scales them to 1280 X 720P or 1920 X 1080P cleanly via hardware.

As for 960 on the PS I think it has to throw them away, you cannot scale down the image down without losing the actual resolution, Its not like they can be shifted.

So 960 means you lose 25% of your horizontal res on the games that are full 1280. Is 25% of the largest part of your display enough to complain? Guess thats a personal decision. But its at least good to know that the PS3 will not scale to what most understand as "1080P" which is 1920 X 1080.
post #12 of 31
12/1/07 at 4:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike LS View Post

Funny....in the Xbox forum you said you actually still have your original console that you've sent in twice. What gives?

Yes, if you send in a console TWICE:

1st console) Original purchase (return #1)
2nd console) refurbished console ( just happened to be my own again!) (return #2)
3rd console) Waited a month, got a note back with same exact console nothing done (going to be return #3)
4th console to be determined) I'll have a fourth one, once the one sent back RROD consistently

Funny? Is this some sort of joke? Because if it is, I don't get it. I personally don't think it's funny one bit that I've been lied to, called a liar and a scam artist by MS, and now going to be over three months without a 360. I think what's happened to me is completely uncalled for, and all I'm doing is considering my options. Because personally I'm very pissed! All I wanted to be able to do is play video games on my HDTV, and so far I can't anymore
post #13 of 31
12/1/07 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

Yes, if you send in a console TWICE:

1st console) Original purchase (return #1)
2nd console) refurbished console ( just happened to be my own again!) (return #2)
3rd console) Waited a month, got a note back with same exact console nothing done (going to be return #3)
4th console to be determined) I'll have a fourth one, once the one sent back RROD consistently

I dont claim to know how MS handles their repairs on the millions of broken consoles. Do they repair yours and send it back to you or do they send a refurbished unit from stock? If they are sending people out a refurbished model, I doubt you've recieved your exact console back two times. They must be trying to repair the RROD, which leads me to believe they know what the problem is and just wont let the secret out.

Edit: Your post made me forgot te reason I originally clicked on the thread to begin with.

I've always been semi-confused about how the box handles HD content. Doesnt it simply upscale EVERYTHING to whatever you tell it to? Like what an upscaling DVD player does with SD DVDs? If so, I dont understand how they can even call it HD. Doesnt the media limit HD capabilities? You cant get HD content on a dvd can you? If so, is the only drawback space? Isnt component cables limited in bandwidth and unable to pass 1080P? Aside from the possible hardware limitations...whats so special about this supposed 1080P? I've seen side by side 1080P and 720P on the same model sets playing the same movie and couldnt tell a difference. I know that "technically" there are more dots on the screen but does that necessarily mean its better? In the box's case, is there even really more dots or are they just created using the scaler in the box itself?
post #14 of 31
12/1/07 at 4:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conspiracy* View Post

I dont claim to know how MS handles their repairs on the millions of broken consoles. Do they repair yours and send it back to you or do they send a refurbished unit from stock? If they are sending people out a refurbished model, I doubt you've recieved your exact console back two times. They must be trying to repair the RROD, which leads me to believe they know what the problem is and just wont let the secret out.

I personally don't know and don't care how they do it. All I know is I have a white piece of plastic whose only use right now would be to hold my door open. Whenever I got back my 360 each time, the case was the same, with the same DVD-drive cover with all my same smudges, with the same serial number sticker which has the same amount of fading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conspiracy* View Post


Edit: Your post made me forgot te reason I originally clicked on the thread to begin with.

HAHA. It's ok, I'm fairly absent minded myself!
post #15 of 31
12/1/07 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

I personally don't know and don't care how they do it. All I know is I have a white piece of plastic whose only use right now would be to hold my door open. Whenever I got back my 360 each time, the case was the same, with the same DVD-drive cover with all my same smudges, with the same serial number sticker which has the same amount of fading.


So you know for sure that you've gotten the same box back 3x and yet you've never looked into getting a different one? I would never own a box but it seems that looking into a different one would be the first thing on to-do list when I got it back.

BTW what keeps you on the box? Other than picking a side and just loving the console war I dont see much there unless you're a die hard halo fan.
post #16 of 31
12/1/07 at 5:00pm
Let's drop the 360 bashing/discussion and back to PS3 please!
post #17 of 31
12/1/07 at 5:08pm
You can notice lag in the scaling in the TV but not in the console? I doubt it, let the PS3 send out the signal it wants (720P for most games, 1080P for BD) and you won't notice a thing. Scaling is scaling, the 360 is doing any magic.
post #18 of 31
12/1/07 at 5:19pm
First of all the 360 doesn't do a full 100% 1080p it upscales it. Upscaling doesn't translate
into 100% 1080p. Second the 360 doesn't have any games the is originally rendered at
1920x1080 pixels. Third most of 360 games aren't even a full 1280x720 but something like
1152×640 and then upscales it to whatever output you'd like. Last, the PS3 does upscale
itself to whatever TV resolution you have and the PS3 actually has a handful of games that
are rendered in 1920x1080 pixels.
post #19 of 31
12/1/07 at 5:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conspiracy* View Post

I've always been semi-confused about how the box handles HD content. Doesnt it simply upscale EVERYTHING to whatever you tell it to? Like what an upscaling DVD player does with SD DVDs? If so, I dont understand how they can even call it HD. Doesnt the media limit HD capabilities? You cant get HD content on a dvd can you? If so, is the only drawback space? Isnt component cables limited in bandwidth and unable to pass 1080P? Aside from the possible hardware limitations...whats so special about this supposed 1080P? I've seen side by side 1080P and 720P on the same model sets playing the same movie and couldnt tell a difference. I know that "technically" there are more dots on the screen but does that necessarily mean its better? In the box's case, is there even really more dots or are they just created using the scaler in the box itself?

I know a lot of people get confused about that. I'll try to explain your wonderings as best as I can.

1) Doesn't it simply upscale EVERYTHING to whatever you tell it to?

Not as far as I can tell. From what others here said, if you're using HDMI all media and PSX/PS2 games will render in 1080p but the game's ability to render in 1080p is dependent upon the developer and will possibly render as 960x1080p and then the horizontal pixel doubled to 1920.

2) Like what an upscaling DVD player does with SD DVDs?

SD-DVDs because of the MPAA licensing threats and agreements only allow 1080i/p and 720p upscaling with HDMI using HDCP.

3)If so, I dont understand how they can even call it HD. Doesn't the media limit HD capabilities?

It isn't true-HD, it's upscaled HD. But depending on the output device or the TV, either the TV or outside scaling device might be better. The only way to know is to test yourself and see which you like better.

4) You cant get HD content on a dvd can you?

Yes you can, such as the Terminator 2 DVD which has a WMV format of the movie on a supplemental disc in 1080i but very few if any DVD players will play it, so about your only option is to use a computer. A DVD is just a way of storing information. You can store anything you want, but if you're talking about DVD video, then no, HD isn't part of the spec. DVD video is either 720x480p NTSC or 720x576p PAL. The DVD then has a pixel aspect ratio flag which says if it's either: 4:3, 16:9, 2.4:1, or 1.85:1, etc and the pixels are then expanded by the player. This was developed years ago for use on CRT. On a CRT vertical resolution is fixed timing, but horizontal isn't. Each new pixel horizontally can be drawn sooner or later, which will make the pixel drawn wider or narrower.

5) If so, is the only drawback space?

Yes. Dual layer has up to 8.5 gigabyte while single layer has only up to 4.7 gigabyte.

6) Isnt component cables limited in bandwidth and unable to pass 1080P?

NO! Component can do 1080p just fine. The "limitation" is because of DRM overlords such as the MPAA who limit component to a maximum of either 480p, 720p or 1080i, depending on what's being sent. Component can't use HDCP, HDMI can, so most of the time as long as HDCP is used, there's no 1080p "ban".

7)Aside from the possible hardware limitations...whats so special about this supposed 1080P? I've seen side by side 1080P and 720P on the same model sets playing the same movie and couldnt tell a difference.

There are tons of advantages to 1080p over 720p. A major advantage is if you sit 1.5 times the width of the tv or closer, 1080p pixels aren't as noticeable. If you can't tell the difference, you're either not close enough or not paying attention. The differences between 1080p and 720p can at times be subtle. It depends on the person.

8) I know that "technically" there are more dots on the screen but does that necessarily mean its better? In the box's case, is there even really more dots or are they just created using the scaler in the box itself?

It depends on the source. With Blu-ray and HD-DVD you're using all 1920x1080p pixels. With 1080i, on a fixed pixel device, a 1920x1080p display is the only way to get all 1920x1080 pixels from a 1080i signal. For any other resolution other than 1080i/p or 1080p/24, the pixels somewhere in the chain are being created and then displayed.

Hope that helps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnsteph10 View Post

Let's drop the 360 bashing/discussion and back to PS3 please!

Yes, please do! That wasn't my intent. I was just explaining where I was coming from and what would I be gaining and losing by switching sides as far as 1080p support goes.
post #20 of 31
12/1/07 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgable View Post

You can notice lag in the scaling in the TV but not in the console? I doubt it, let the PS3 send out the signal it wants (720P for most games, 1080P for BD) and you won't notice a thing. Scaling is scaling, the 360 is doing any magic.

Scaling algorithms and quality vary widely i.e. there is a reason some scalers are far better than others and a high quality separate video processor costs money. More than one model of television has been known to introduce very noticeable lag that affects video games. In general, the scalers in televisions tend to be the worst of the lot (by a large margin although certainly some units do a better job than others) and there's no real control over them due to all the different ever changing models out there. Even fairly cheap scalers found in, again fairly cheap, external components tend to be better. By using a scaler within a video game system, there is a margin for control as it is always the same and the entire console and all games are designed with it in mind.

Anyway - to just touch on the 'all scaling is not created equal theme' some dedicated external scalers have a video game setting which will enable faster, albeit lower quality, scaling algorithms to minimize lag.
post #21 of 31
12/1/07 at 5:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conspiracy* View Post


BTW what keeps you on the box? Other than picking a side and just loving the console war I dont see much there unless you're a die hard halo fan.

Personally, with how I've been treated by MS, I've wondered that myself. Mostly it's because I have limited funds just to bail on the "box", until lately resolution support on the PS3 has been flaky at best (before all the firmware updates), and I do a lot of Oblivion, which was one of the main reasons I got the 360 at launch. Oblivion seems to be hit and miss on the PS3 version compared to the 360, rendering quality wise

Are all of the expansion packs which are available for Oblivion on the 360 version, are those all available on the PS3 version as well?
post #22 of 31
12/1/07 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

First of all the 360 doesn't do a full 100% 1080p it upscales it. Upscaling doesn't translate
into 100% 1080p. Second the 360 doesn't have any games the is originally rendered at
1920x1080 pixels.

Not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

most of 360 games aren't even a full 1280x720 but something like
1152×640 and then upscales it to whatever output you'd like.

"Most"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

Last, the PS3 does upscale itself to whatever TV resolution you have

No, it will output at whatever res you tell it. If you have a 1080p set, and uncheck 720p, but have 1080p checked, then the PS3 will scale it, if the game supports 1080i/p.
post #23 of 31
12/1/07 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgable View Post

You can notice lag in the scaling in the TV but not in the console?

Yes, there are a lot of TVs out there that have quite a bit of lag. It matters particularly in games like Guitar Hero where timing is critical.

Quote:


I doubt it, let the PS3 send out the signal it wants (720P for most games, 1080P for BD) and you won't notice a thing. Scaling is scaling, the 360 is doing any magic.

Wikipedia entry on display lag:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag

Great video demonstrating it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi2OE6hSh00

The lag is painfully obvious in that video.

A thread in AVSForum about TV lag:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125
post #24 of 31
12/1/07 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenkaipalm View Post

Not true.


"Most"?


Yes, it's true. Look it up.
post #25 of 31
12/1/07 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

Yes, it's true. Look it up.

Ok I looked and found a small percentage. And I found several of them on PS3 as well. Perhaps you could point us to where there is a complete list of games and resolutions?
post #26 of 31
12/1/07 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

Yes, it's true. Look it up.


You are seriously misinformed. So far, these are the games that have been confirmed to run at different resolutions than they are advertised. There are 2-4 more but I don't feel like digging more up. PS3 has 6 games that run at a lower resolution then their 360 counterpart and the Xbox 360 has 7 that run at a lower resolution than their PS3 counterpart. Btw, 360 also has several titles that run in native 1080P.


COD4 (360) 1024×600p 2xAA
COD4 (PS3) 1024×600p 2xAA
Uncharted (PS3) 960×1080 in 1080p
Def Jam: Icon (PS3) 1152×648
Transformers (PS3) 960×1080
Pirates of the Caribbean (PS3 720p): 960×720
Pirates of the Caribbean (PS3 1080p): 780×1080
Oblivion (360): 1024×600 (PS3 version is full 720p)
VF5 (PS3 720p): 1024×1024 (same as 360)
VF5 (PS3 1080p): 1024×768 scaled
Tony Hawk Project 8: 1040×584 AA - 360
Tony Hawk Project 8: 1280×720 - PS3
Virtua Tennis 3: 1920×1080 AA 2x - PS3, 360
Perfect Dark Zero: 1138×640p - 360
Halo 3: 1152×640p - 360
Call of Duty 3: 1120×630p 360
Ninja Gaiden Sigma: 1280×720p PS3
Project Gotham Racing 3: 1024×600 360
Tomb Raider: 1024×600 360
Tony Hawk Proving Ground: 600p - PS3
Tony Hawk Proving Ground: 720p - 360
GRAW2: 720p - PS3
GRAW2: 720p AA 2x - 360
Super Rub a Dub: 1600×1080 - PS3
GTHD: 1440×1080 - PS3
Skate: 1536×864 - PS3
Skate: 1280×720 AA - 360
The Darkness: 1024×576 PS3
post #27 of 31
12/1/07 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

Oblivion seems to be hit and miss on the PS3 version compared to the 360, rendering quality wise

Are all of the expansion packs which are available for Oblivion on the 360 version, are those all available on the PS3 version as well?

Everything I have read indicates that Oblivion looks slightly better on the PS3, not worse. I'm not sure where you read that the PS3 version is inferior. As for the expansion packs, Knights of the Nine was included with the original version of Oblivion on PS3 and Shivering Isles is available with the recently released GOTY edition and is also available for download on PSN.
post #28 of 31
12/1/07 at 6:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD23 View Post

Everything I have read indicates that Oblivion looks slightly better on the PS3, not worse. I'm not sure where you read that the PS3 version is inferior. As for the expansion packs, Knights of the Nine was included with the original version of Oblivion on PS3 and Shivering Isles is available with the recently released GOTY edition and is also available for download on PSN.

He is right there. I played both versions and the extra time really let Bethesda improve the frames of the game. From what I saw, the PS3 version is superior.
post #29 of 31
12/1/07 at 6:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

Do I have to wait for a version of the PS3 which supports 1080p game scaling?

It appears that the answer to your question is yes you will need to wait for a future revision as no existing model appears to be able to scale to 1920 X 1080P and only select titles can scale to 960 X 1080P.

If you are interested in knowing how well your set scales you might look in one of the display forums.
post #30 of 31
12/1/07 at 8:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

First of all the 360 doesn't do a full 100% 1080p it upscales it. Upscaling doesn't translate
into 100% 1080p. Second the 360 doesn't have any games the is originally rendered at
1920x1080 pixels. Third most of 360 games aren't even a full 1280x720 but something like
1152×640 and then upscales it to whatever output you'd like. Last, the PS3 does upscale
itself to whatever TV resolution you have and the PS3 actually has a handful of games that
are rendered in 1920x1080 pixels.

This is not supposed to be a fanboi forum like Beyond3D or Neogaf.

Start acting like a grown-up and stop spreading FUD....
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PlayStation Area
This thread is locked  

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Gaming & Content Streaming › Home Theater Gaming › PlayStation Area › Considering ditching the 360 and getting PS3, but not everthing can be 1080p? Why?