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Electrical wiring ...what is the best way ?

post #1 of 16
12/1/07 at 1:25pm
Thread Starter 
Currently planning next house ( building will start in march/april )
And i am up facing the "cabling " dilema

What is the best way to design/plan and wire a house for electrical power?


What i am planning and is decided :

- ICF house ( walls and floors all concrete + foam insulator )
- complete automation of all lighting/alarm/security and HAVC
- house needs to be not only future proof, but future style !
- all rooms will have underfloor electrical heating ( 240V )
- will have a 12V power grid + regular 120V for canada


What i had ideas on ...

- install a small box + breakers in almost each room or for 2-3 adjacent rooms, so that any expension can be done from there in the future
instead of having wires go all the way from service room to each utilities
wires would be of good AMP sizes for future use ( like 30-40AMP for each room + heating 240V ) ..would make less wiring and expendability easier,
but i am not sure on how i could control all of this with software relays

- other method i thought about was getting individual wires from all different things down to service rooms, where it could be controlled from relays/software easier since everything at the same place..but that'll made a F***** load of wires all over the house ( will need access shafts where everything goes through neway )


I have talked with my electrician here, i want to do most of it myself
and have him only do the final connections and approval of the sytems
before closing the walls ..
thing is i am not sure that a 400AMP house setup will be enough ...
will have ~5000 sqFeet of floor @ 10W = 50 000W / 240V = ~210AMPS only for the floor heating system ( and it gets down to -30C here for a few weeks during winter ) ..then ventilation, water heater and all computers/audio
and it gets up realllly quick

what you guys think ?

How would you wire for power in a new planned house that will probably be seriously automated and future-wise designed ... ???


anything will be greatly appreciated, as i have sooo many different things to plan for this project that my head hurts only thinking about it
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post #2 of 16
12/1/07 at 5:20pm
pipe, pipe and more pipe. Plan on access ways, spare pipes and more spare pipes. Panels with pipe runs. Did I mention pipe.
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post #3 of 16
12/1/07 at 10:18pm
Thread Starter 
ok thanks .. i guess i'll have a look into " pipes " mate!

i just worked quickly on a total Watts of power required to run everything in the house .... a bit scary ..but this will never all run at the same time

i'm @ 400AMPS only for heating/HVAC/water heater

and near 200AMPS for lighting/cooking/washers/computers

i guess that i will need a 600amp setup after all


what do you guys suggest as far as cable layout ?

should i use 2 200amp for heating/water
and keep the seperated 200amp for all other house stuff ?

how do we wire for future proof automation ?
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post #4 of 16
12/3/07 at 1:45pm
Pipe is not exactly a DIY medium and it is very time consuming and not inexpensive. Imagine trying to run rigid condiut through your ceiling joists? You can use flexible Greenfield but you may wish to price this out. I think locating a subpanel is each room unnecessary, even foolish. Running 3x4 from the main manel to a subpanel in 85 degree heat knocked me out.

Depending on the size of your home I'd suggest installing 3-5 subpanels. It really depends on the kind of lighting control you will employ but the best looking, most convenient will be cenralized lighting. This is not an insignicant amount of work. I know. I am close to the end in my automation progress and it is very time consuming. Indeed I am about to post my own request for help given that I screwed up some of the thermostat wiring because the system changed in the middle, I was busy earning a living, there were no plans and it was missed--by everyone.

It is a lot of work to install high hats. It is a lot of work to wire them. It is a lot of work to run feeds to subpanels. Hopefully your electrician will help you with the code issues and hopefully you do not have a full time job.

Alan
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post #5 of 16
12/3/07 at 5:14pm
Thread Starter 
i work more or less 80 hours a week .. ( 2 buisness )
the house will be of about 5000square foot of floor + flat rooftop

i will do all the wiring myself..there is NO WAY i am paying 55$/hour + for an apprentice to pass wires into the walls ..that is almost insulting ( i do feel like that )

my electrician will only be paid for final connections, temporary conenction while building, and inspection and so on ... i don't care much about the code,
as i can have my electrician do almost anything with some $$bonus
i'll overdo everythihng neway ...

so what do you mean by subpannel ?
if i am to have only 1-2 subpannels, better have everything going down to service room near the pannel

thinking of it, there won't be that much wires..
how many lighting possibilites does one have in a regular room ?
1-2 maybe 3?
lets say ...
LEDS for emergency and accents
regular lighting for work and so..
and cozy lighting ( wich could well be regular lighting but dimmed or so )

do we need to control electrical outlets?
if yes, what for ?

i'll need to start looking at my plan and see if i can manage to put in a big access shaft ...still havre to figure where to pass ventilation ducts
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post #6 of 16
12/3/07 at 6:28pm
You are all over the map. There are service panels ( from the meter to the main electrical panel which usually contains a main breaker. ) Then there are panels that have 100 amp or lower breakers in the main panel which are called sub-panels and usually have log nuts in them for the wires. If you have a 400 amp service it would not be unusual for you to have the 400 amp brought into a distribution panel and from there 200 amps distributed to 2 main panels. At any rate your electrician can work out these details with you.

Lighting control would have separate back boxes if it were centralized. Note the terminology, service or main panel, sub panels ( which are still electrical panels with circuit breakers ) and lighting back boxes which would have feeds from either the main or sub-panel. There are a lot of reasons you may want to distribute sub panels around a home, including your wish to make additions later on. It is a lot of work to drill through joists and pull wire. Neatness counts and how neatly you run these wires will be a factor in your passing your rough-in inspection. How many lights you place in a room depends on what you want to obtain. My home is 3500^ ft and I added 4 switch lets in the living room, 4 in the dining room, 3 lighting and 1 fan in the MBR, 8 circuits in the kitchen and 4 in the master bath including the exhaust fan. Add in closet lights, lamps, outlets, AFC breakers for bedrooms, smoke detectors, electrical for HVAC and so on. Go on and dismiss NEC all you want but if you fail your electrical inspection you will not get a C/O. That affects you mortgage and home owners insurance.

Installing and connecting wires to high hats may not be difficult but you may find that with 80hr/week job you will not have the time or the knowledge to do this work assuming you need to sleep, have some time off and keep up with the GC's work schedule. I have been in the low voltage business for over 20 years and have installed hundreds of lighting control systems and I found the electrical work challanging in terms of the time it took and some of the tricks and equipment you need to install fixtures or the type of boxes you require. Will you need IC fixtures, 12g or 14g wire, how many outlets will you need per room and will there be box fill limits? What gage of wire will you need for your sub panels? How many feeds will you need in the kitchen? It is a lot of work. You may find that 55/hour will be worth it to get the job done in a timely fashion. Good luck.

Alan
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post #7 of 16
12/3/07 at 6:46pm
Thread Starter 
hi!
thanks alot for your info and time
i didn't know what the subpannels were.. we don't use any english terms around here

yes i understand how the basic distribution of the pannels work

what exactly do you mean by locating sub-pannels in different area? what would be the point ?

i won't be able to pass any wires through any joists because they will be all concrete with foam between each

so i need to install tubes and basic wiring before each step of concrete pouring
i have 4 months starting now to plan it all...99% of it needs to be on paper so we do not forget anything major that cannot be added once poured
i will also try to have access to some distribution spaces so i can easily pass wires over the stories later on ...

the concrete is also why i need to plan it all asap,
i will need to get a "code" book just to check if everything i want to do will pass inspection ...not that i care much about mortage ( that is if i need any .. to be seen )

sleep ?? i don't sleep aahha

what is GC ?? if you mean constructor..there is none
i will build my house myself
so i have 6-8 months total including 3 weeks off during summer
and during spring i will have some employee take my place so i can have days off to work on the house from time to time + week ends + envenings
and i also have 1 employee wich will be 50-60hours/week on the house

it is true that thinkning of it, lighting only requires alot of different wires and installations ..

do you think i should bring every circuit down to the subpanels, or should i bring all the lighting from 1 room to a comon point where it will take power from and where i will be able to install some controlers?

i don't have any problems with both ... just need to figure out before i do it all

HVAC will be kinda special .. i won't have a big HVAC conventional..since i'm using 100% electrical undefloor heating system ..so those wires need to go straight from the rooms to the subpans .. that alone is 50KW @ 230

and i'll have some basic air circulation with independant blowers all in the service room
cooling will be assumed by a geothermal system on a furnace radiator through the systems ..basic ..but we don't need much neway here in Quebec...maybe only 1 month total and it doesn't get very hot during the nights so venting off during night brings alot of coolness in the house mass


What do you suggest i take as next steps ? you seem to have alot of experience with those things..and help is what i need right now to start on the correct path
i know basic electrics, but i do not know much to codes and everything other from what i have deducted from already installed systems.

i guess i'll need to figure out what kind of control pannel i will be using for automation..that seems important to know where to route all the wiring

can we use contactors for all connections? controlled from the automatino pannel?

let's say, you want to control lighting, only from computer ..no wall switches
( every room will eventually have computer controls with small screens )
how would you wire lets say 1 light circuit from a bedroom ?

my guess is sub pannel to contactor, contactor controlled by automation, contactor directly to lighting system ? is that even legal ? do contactors have to be in special boxes?

thanks again much
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post #8 of 16
12/3/07 at 6:52pm
Thread Starter 
i guess i could install some temporary wall switches , hidden so we can at least control the lighting during the installation and the first months we will live in there, since i won't be finalizing all rooms at once, and the automation system won't probably be online before a few months ( next winter i believe if all goes well )

we'll just leave all the switches ON when using the automation controls
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post #9 of 16
12/3/07 at 9:56pm
I will stay away from the wiring issue... you are getting some good advice.

What I will address is the ICF construction and you doing it yourself. I hope you don't mean you are actually going to put up the ICF structure yourself. Please hire a reputable ICF installation company and I do mean REPUTABLE. CHECK REFERENCES!!!! I have an ICF home and am extremely happy with it but I have seen a number of jobs that were seriously screwed up. Specialty bracing is required to keep the walls straight during the concrete pour. Before committing to any ICF contractor, go and watch them build a house and observe the pour.

The second thing that can't be over stated is to check and recheck the location of all through slab, through wall, window openings, etc. before the concrete is poured. You can't fix misplaced windows with a few hours work and a couple of new studs in a ICF wall.

Good luck with your new home.
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post #10 of 16
12/4/07 at 4:46am
Thread Starter 
thanks mad !
unfortunatly, there is no ICF experienced builders around my place
i have asked around, looked over internet...
they have just as much experience with it as i do .. none

fortunatly, since i am doing it myself, i will have alot of time before each pouring steps,
so i should be able to take time and measure everything..and make sure everything is level and plumbed ...

did your builder had the bracing equipment already ? rent it ?

there is also no place i know of near here that i can rent this equipment from
i might have to be very creative

do you have concrete floors also ? poured all at once?
did they pour only 1-2 feet all around a the time ?
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post #11 of 16
12/4/07 at 8:10am
WOW! That's all I can say. I do wish you the best of luck though.
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post #12 of 16
12/4/07 at 8:50am
I can only wish you the best of luck with the house. Below are a few pictures of our build. This was in 01.


The wife setting the first ICF block. You can see some of the wall braces in the background.


Wall and Window Braces. Notice the turnbuckles for vertical alignment and integrated walk path at the top of the wall


First Floor concrete pumping. They poured each floor in a continuous, "walk around the walls" manner.


The second floor pour.

I will be happy to answer any questions if I can.
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post #13 of 16
12/4/07 at 6:18pm
Thread Starter 
maddogmc : superb photos!
and your wife sure seems happy to place that building block!

the method of construction i choose is :
www.quad-lock.com
made in west canada, they also have alot of others sub produts, the service and support has been seriously top notch up to now
( we have discussed about basic details a few times now ..their techs are top )
they also have the "quad-deck" system, wich i will use for sure on each floor

Nice bracing, i have seen this kind of equipment locally, with the exact same setup..
seemed to work pretty good, but when i got there, the walls were all already poured

they didn't use any vibratory tooling when pouring your walls??

do you know what is the approximate height of each pass?
( or number of passes VS wall height)


the problem with that kind of setup, is that it can't be used for my project
since i will have concrete floors poured at the same time as the walls under it...
we will walk on the foam floors setup when pouring all around, thus no need for the
walk path ..but i have yet to find a manner to get shoring and bracing a the same time..
though the floor pannels beeing in place, i could only find a manner to tie them to the top of the walls to get the top 100% straight..would require less bracing

i see you have used metal window bucks ...why ?
cheaper? better?

could you explain how you have wired the house?
pre-pass tubbing?
between floors?

thanks for all
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post #14 of 16
12/4/07 at 8:30pm
....
they didn't use any vibratory tooling when pouring your walls??
They used external tamping tools on the walls. With the cross-hatch rebar and internal bracing in the blocks, using vibrating wands was not practical.

do you know what is the approximate height of each pass?
( or number of passes VS wall height)
1 1/2 to 2 feet. It took 5-6 passes for each floor.

i see you have used metal window bucks ...why ?
cheaper? better?
The window bucks are plastic. The metal you see in the photos is just bracing for the pour needed to keep the plastic from deforming while the concrete is in a plastic state. They cut a 6" hole in the bottom center of each window buck to insure that concrete completely filled the cavity under the window.

could you explain how you have wired the house?
pre-pass tubbing?
between floors?
The interior framing is standard wood framing, Only the exterior required special wiring and that was very simple. The electrician simply cut channels in the interior foam and used metal rough-in boxes attached to the concrete wall core with a Ramset. Here is a pic of one of the exterior walls. I wired the whole house audio, telephone, data network and TV feeds myself. I used rigid conduit for all video and data outlets on both floors, returning everything to the attic.



thanks for all
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post #15 of 16
12/4/07 at 8:38pm
My home uses ReddiWall which is foam one piece leggo blocks. hollow cores for cement and rebar. Slots for screw fastners and for drainage if the exteriour undergrade is compromised. 75% of basement is above grade w/ 10 ft ceilings.

I also put 2" foam under the floor slab: dirt / gravel / moisture barrier / foam / concrete rebar / radiant floor heat tubing / 4 inch concrete

Very energy efficient. The foam walls circle the Theater room for sound isolation and dead room. The interiour treatement is acoustic cloth on a frame against the foam for sound control.
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post #16 of 16
12/5/07 at 6:31pm
Thread Starter 
mad : thanks

smooth: i'll also use icf walls all around the HT room (~16 by 21 as of now )
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