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AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 40

post #1171 of 3625
1/4/09 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by njfoses View Post

I calibrated my mits 73835 dlp using this disc via ps3 along with an eye one pro and calman. My mits has an auto iris thats not adjustable in any way. I used the normal patterns for grayscale and colors. Should i have used the apl patterns instead? Thanks.

I went and used the same settings and used the apl patterns this time and the results vary by a good amount. Using the apl patterns for grayscale my grayscale is much to blue. My brightness, contrast and gamma all changed using these patterns as well. When i measured colors using the apl patterns the results were almost the same. Now im confused for grayscale, brightness, and gamma im not sure which is correct?
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post #1172 of 3625
1/4/09 at 12:52pm
Does anyone know if I can burn the MP4 files to DVD and play them via an XBox 360?

For calibrating my TV I use my PS3 but my mate wants me to do his TV and he only has an XBox 360. Alternatively, I may have to use 2 laptops, one for the patterns and one for the HCFR software and i1 Pro sensor.
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post #1173 of 3625
1/4/09 at 1:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by njfoses View Post

I went and used the same settings and used the apl patterns this time and the results vary by a good amount. Using the apl patterns for grayscale my grayscale is much to blue.

I don't know why xy measurements would be any different unless the meter is picking up another part of the pattern like discussed in the thread from SOWK. The discussion there was that maybe the meter was reading the black along with the center measurement area. On my TV the xy measurements don't change much, even with the color APL patterns and how my TV doesn't have a great ANSI contrast compared to other technologies. Anyway I would have to see your measurements and get more of an idea about the i1 setup to really take a guess on this one. For xy you can really just use typical patterns, because the APL patterns basically have to do with Y measurements.

Quote:


My brightness, contrast and gamma all changed using these patterns as well.

Generally all the Y levels would be expected to change.

Quote:


Now im confused for grayscale, brightness, and gamma im not sure which is correct?

You cannot measure on-screen gamma with an adjusting iris using typical window or field patterns. The numbers it will give you are nonsense because the light output (Y) will change depending on the pattern. The idea with the APL patterns is just to try to keep APL from changing to try to measure on-screen relative levels.

Gamma is just about relative light levels. If your display adjusts light levels depending on APL, then the APL pattern should give a better idea about on-screen gamma. Of course the on-screen relative light levels may also change depending on APL, so that's why there are two sets of APL patterns in those sections. The first large patterns are to look at a somewhat high APL, and the small ones are to look at a low APL response.

Anyway if you don't get what I said above it's no biggie. Just don't look at gamma with typical windows or fields on a display that varies light levels, and don't set your color based on Y measurements if the levels vary depending on APL. Gamma and setting color are the two areas where adjusting light levels become a problem. Both of those situations have to do with relative Y levels, so if APL causes Y to vary then the results are really not as intended when using typical window or field patterns.
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post #1174 of 3625
1/4/09 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I don't know why xy measurements would be any different unless the meter is picking up another part of the pattern like discussed in the thread from SOWK. The discussion there was that maybe the meter was reading the black along with the center measurement area. On my TV the xy measurements don't change much, even with the color APL patterns and how my TV doesn't have a great ANSI contrast compared to other technologies. Anyway I would have to see your measurements and get more of an idea about the i1 setup to really take a guess on this one. For xy you can really just use typical patterns, because the APL patterns basically have to do with Y measurements.



Generally all the Y levels would be expected to change.



You cannot measure on-screen gamma with an adjusting iris using typical window or field patterns. The numbers it will give you are nonsense because the light output (Y) will change depending on the pattern. The idea with the APL patterns is just to try to keep APL from changing to try to measure on-screen relative levels.

Gamma is just about relative light levels. If your display adjusts light levels depending on APL, then the APL pattern should give a better idea about on-screen gamma. Of course the on-screen relative light levels may also change depending on APL, so that's why there are two sets of APL patterns in those sections. The first large patterns are to look at a somewhat high APL, and the small ones are to look at a low APL response.

Anyway if you don't get what I said above it's no biggie. Just don't look at gamma with typical windows or fields on a display that varies light levels, and don't set your color based on Y measurements if the levels vary depending on APL. Gamma and setting color are the two areas where adjusting light levels become a problem. Both of those situations have to do with relative Y levels, so if APL causes Y to vary then the results are really not as intended when using typical window or field patterns.

For the most part i understand. My color settings werent very different at all using apl and non apl. The main difference was grayscale and now im not sure which is correct. I guess i will have to judge with my eye which one looks correct.
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post #1175 of 3625
1/4/09 at 1:30pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mparter View Post

For calibrating my TV I use my PS3 but my mate wants me to do his TV and he only has an XBox 360. Alternatively, I may have to use 2 laptops, one for the patterns and one for the HCFR software and i1 Pro sensor.

My question would be, what are you calibrating it for? I mean, what does he watch that he wants to calibrate? If he watches DVDs from the X360, then get a DVD calibration disk. If you're trying to calibrate for games, I'm not convinced there's really a way to do that.
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post #1176 of 3625
1/4/09 at 1:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njfoses View Post

I guess i will have to judge with my eye which one looks correct.

There are a number of things that could come into play, such as how the meter will generally be less accurate at lower light levels, but I don't have enough information to comment any further. I know for the SXRDs that professional calibrators have commented that they generally set the iris to the highest light output for taking measurements.
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post #1177 of 3625
1/4/09 at 3:14pm
With my AE3000 projector, was I wrong to set the colour control using 21% of the 100 IRE white 'Y' reading using a 100% red colour bar, due to the dynamic iris? I didn't have the AVS709 disc at the time, so just used the colour bars on DVE BluRay (in fact they were 75%, but I still use 21% of the 'Y' value) and had to set the colour control quite a long way down.

Since this adjustment every film seems desaturated, though I think 'JarHead' is meant to look like that anyway, which just happened to be the first film I watched. Some others I tried seemed a bit washed out too. Maybe it's just that I'm not used to the 'correct' setting or should I readjust the colour (and tint) settings with the dynamic iris 'OFF'?
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post #1178 of 3625
1/4/09 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

There are a number of things that could come into play, such as how the meter will generally be less accurate at lower light levels, but I don't have enough information to comment any further. I know for the SXRDs that professional calibrators have commented that they generally set the iris to the highest light output for taking measurements.

Unfortunately the iris on the 835 is not adjustable in any way. I think i may recalibrate using the apl windows for grayscale and see how it looks.
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post #1179 of 3625
1/4/09 at 4:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

With my AE3000 projector, was I wrong to set the colour control using 21% of the 100 IRE white 'Y' reading using a 100% red colour bar, due to the dynamic iris?

I'm confused, how did you measure a color bar pattern on a front projection image? The only ways I can think of doing that would have a number of issues. The APL would remain constant for the pattern, so the iris would never change, but I can't say the measurements would necessarily be relative to each other because I really doubt the image would measure uniformly. Personally I would either just use a color filter or else take the measurements a different way, because I can't think of any possible way that procedure wouldn't have issues.
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post #1180 of 3625
1/5/09 at 12:29am
I put up the colour bars from DVE that have a white 75% on the left and the 75% red is towards the right. I used the lens shift to move the red bar across to land on the sensor after measuring the 'Y' value for the white. As you say there could be uniformity issues, so now I have the AVS 709 disc I could use the full frame 100% white and red patterns, but I will compare results with the iris on and off, with the reading taken in the middle of the screen. My PJ does seem to have good uniformity, but there may be differences across the screen that the sensor picks up, though my eyes don't.
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post #1181 of 3625
1/5/09 at 1:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

My question would be, what are you calibrating it for? I mean, what does he watch that he wants to calibrate? If he watches DVDs from the X360, then get a DVD calibration disk. If you're trying to calibrate for games, I'm not convinced there's really a way to do that.

Ideally I'd like to calibrate it for viewing general satellite TV, watching DVD's and gaming via the 360. I'm aware however that doing calibration via the 360 will only calibrate on this input however there's no other way to calibrate for watching normal TV without paying a professional.

I'm trying to do him a favour and get him a better quality image without him having to resort to the usual blind adjustments that the majority of people make.
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post #1182 of 3625
1/5/09 at 5:11am
Hi,

Could You make all the test frames and sequences in 24p instand of 60i ?

Indeed, I calibrate several material and particulary Benq W5000 and W2000 with the last firmwire. In these models, memories for color, white, black, xyY are different depending on the input signal (1080/24p - 1080/60i).

So when I calibrate the projector with your Disc, I can only ajust in 1080/60i.
But all movies are encoded 24p. So I've bad color,....

Thanks for the job ! It's the best calibration Disc

Jonathan FILLIUNG

PS : Sorry for my poor English
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post #1183 of 3625
1/5/09 at 5:35am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mparter View Post

Ideally I'd like to calibrate it for viewing general satellite TV, watching DVD's and gaming via the 360.

My point was mainly that I think it's probably possible to stream to the x360, but I don't use mine for that and if he's not doing that then I don't see a reason to try that route. Since you want to calibrate for DVD, I would say to set the player to video levels and just use a DVD. Some libraries may have DVE or Avia if you live in a big enough city, there's online rental like netflix, or there's the disk at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536
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post #1184 of 3625
1/5/09 at 5:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorka57 View Post

Could You make all the test frames and sequences in 24p instand of 60i ?

The current versions are all 24p video (AVCHD/BDMV menus are interlaced). Spectracal.com still has an old 60i version, but they do link back to this page. I haven't asked to have the old version taken down because it's authored differently than the next version and it might be useful for testing if there are any issues encountered with the upcoming disk.
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post #1185 of 3625
1/5/09 at 6:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

My point was mainly that I think it's probably possible to stream to the x360, but I don't use mine for that and if he's not doing that then I don't see a reason to try that route. Since you want to calibrate for DVD, I would say to set the player to video levels and just use a DVD. Some libraries may have DVE or Avia if you live in a big enough city, there's online rental like netflix, or there's the disk at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536

Thanks.

Do you know if Tom's disc is created to the HD Rec 709 standard?
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post #1186 of 3625
1/5/09 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The current versions are all 24p video (AVCHD/BDMV menus are interlaced). Spectracal.com still has an old 60i version, but they do link back to this page. I haven't asked to have the old version taken down because it's authored differently than the next version and it might be useful for testing if there are any issues encountered with the upcoming disk.

Thanks !

Excuse me, I retrieved an old version actually.

The new version 1 is perfect in Samsung BDP-1400 and Toshiba XE1. Both versions are in 24p.

Very good Job.

+++

Jonathan
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post #1187 of 3625
1/5/09 at 8:29am
wow. Thanks very very much. This is very helpful
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post #1188 of 3625
1/5/09 at 9:32am
OK, So me and njfoses have the same model set but I have the 65" (wd-65835) and he has the 73" set (wd-73835) and we have been working together to get to the bottom of some questions so Ill just ask so I know if I am getting this right. Because our set has a non defeatable auto iris, is it correct to use the 10% APL window pattern for grayscale adjustment and the 100% APL window pattern for color adjustment? I have been using regular window patterns previously but I have never been satisfied with the visual results even though the meter is reading respectable delta E values. just for the sake of clarity I will say, I do know the grayscale does not shift visually with different iris positions. thanks in advance.
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post #1189 of 3625
1/5/09 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cid67 View Post

OK, So me and njfoses have the same model set but I have the 65" (wd-65835) and he has the 73" set (wd-73835) and we have been working together to get to the bottom of some questions so Ill just ask so I know if I am getting this right. Because our set has a non defeatable auto iris, is it correct to use the 10% APL window pattern for grayscale adjustment and the 100% APL window pattern for color adjustment? I have been using regular window patterns previously but I have never been satisfied with the visual results even though the meter is reading respectable delta E values. just for the sake of clarity I will say, I do know the grayscale does not shift visually with different iris positions. thanks in advance.

unfortunately as I'm sure you read above I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. to be blunt I don't think anybody really knows what effect the iris has on the set regarding other settings. from what I have gathered people calibrate this set the same as any other. maybe some people are unaware the set even has an auto iris. one thing I do know is that my grayscale definately shifts pending if I use the apl pattern or the standard 10 % pattern. would be great if we could get to the bottom of how to properly calibrate this thing.
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post #1190 of 3625
1/5/09 at 11:44am
I'm now wondering about whether to calibrate greyscale using the window or the fields with my AE3000 projector due to the dynamic iris. I don't see the point calibrating with it off as that's not the mode I watch in. I did recheck my colour setting using the AVS 709 disc using a 100 IRE full field and a 100% full field red and found my colour control was too low (probably due to the uniformity issues mentioned above with my incorrect method). I found that I only needed to set the control to -2 instead of -8 and that makes the picture look better and less washed out. It didn't help that the first film I watched with my incorrect setting was deliberately desaturated anyway.

I found that it is very hard to get much more than 2fL off my (Greywolf II) screen in Cinema 1 mode (not the brightest mode, but one of the better ones for D65). I tried a sample of my new Beamax screen in front of the sensor and the readings were much higher, so I think I might as well wait until I get the new screen in the next week or so. I suppose this is the poor viewing angle of my existing screen as I'd guess the sensor was at maybe 40-50 degress to the screen at the peak reading....it may well have a colour shift too at that angle. Makes me wonder how other owners with Greywolf II screens manage as the I1 isn't very accurate below 1fL. The Greywolf is supposed to be 1.8 gain and the Beamax 1.5, so I expected the off screen readings to be lower, but I think the viewing angle may be better with the Beamax (which is not so good for reducing room reflections).
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post #1191 of 3625
1/5/09 at 3:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cid67 View Post

is it correct to use the 10% APL window pattern for grayscale adjustment and the 100% APL window pattern for color adjustment? I have been using regular window patterns previously

You can read what was written above if you want, but the short version is that the gray APL images were created to look at on-screen gamma and the color APL patterns were also mainly for looking at Y. I don't think it makes sense to set color based on Y with a display that has an adjusting light output using typical windows or fields. Any sort of adjusting light output will also mess up gamma with typical patterns, because gamma is just a relative Y representation.
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post #1192 of 3625
1/5/09 at 3:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I'm now wondering about whether to calibrate greyscale using the window or the fields with my AE3000 projector due to the dynamic iris.

It generally shouldn't matter, just ignore gamma with typical patterns on a display that adjusts light output.
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post #1193 of 3625
1/5/09 at 3:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mparter View Post

Do you know if Tom's disc is created to the HD Rec 709 standard?

It's a DVD, so it doesn't use that encoding. This http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14520435 attempts to address how primaries are generally determined by the display, rather than the disk information.
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post #1194 of 3625
1/5/09 at 3:58pm
Does it matter if its DVD+R or DVD-R?

What is better with the PS3?

What is better for newer stand alone players?
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post #1195 of 3625
1/5/09 at 4:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Does it matter if its DVD+R or DVD-R?

It won't matter for most players, but I suppose it's possible a certain model player might not like some media. All my testing has been with DVD+RW or DVD+R and I haven't ran into anything that was clearly media related with current players.
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post #1196 of 3625
1/5/09 at 5:43pm
Quote:


I don't think it makes sense to set color based on Y with a display that has an adjusting light output using typical windows or fields

the way I am thinking is I can see how the auto iris would mess up a gamma measurement because it is raising and lowering the black level but for getting the Y value for a color, it is basically a specific percentage of the Y of 100% white, right? so the auto iris shouldn't effect the brightness of the 100% white, the way I see it and thus it would have no effect on the math to come to the Y value for your color. obviously I am missing something.
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post #1197 of 3625
1/5/09 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cid67 View Post

the way I am thinking is I can see how the auto iris would mess up a gamma measurement because it is raising and lowering the black level but for getting the Y value for a color, it is basically a specific percentage of the Y of 100% white, right? so the auto iris shouldn't effect the brightness of the 100% white, the way I see it and thus it would have no effect on the math to come to the Y value for your color. obviously I am missing something.

Are you talking about setting Y on a 100% red screen to be 21% of the Y of 100% white? And blue to 7% of white? If so, will the iris be automatically set to the same setting on the white, red and blue screens? I don't know what algorithm the TV uses to set the iris, but my guess is that it has something to do with tweaking the opening to achieve a particular average Y. This implies to me a different iris setting for each full screen color, screwing up your attempt to set Y for red and blue.

Obviously I'm talking about simply setting Color, but it seems that this logic would also apply to a real CMS.

Does that make sense?
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post #1198 of 3625
1/5/09 at 7:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cid67 View Post

the way I am thinking is

The way the auto iris on my Sony generally seems to work is that it appears to open and close based on APL. It seems to close for a full screen of black and open for a full screen of white. An area of red is not the same APL as the same area of white, so I have to guess that the iris might change when displaying typical window or field patterns.
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post #1199 of 3625
1/5/09 at 7:44pm
Quote:


Are you talking about setting Y on a 100% red screen to be 21% of the Y of 100% white? And blue to 7% of white? If so, will the iris be automatically set to the same setting on the white, red and blue screens? I don't know what algorithm the TV uses to set the iris, but my guess is that it has something to do with tweaking the opening to achieve a particular average Y. This implies to me a different iris setting for each full screen color, screwing up your attempt to set Y for red and blue.

Obviously I'm talking about simply setting Color, but it seems that this logic would also apply to a real CMS.

Does that make sense?

yes that does make sens and that is what I was referring to. I would suppose since red or blue, or green for that matter is darker than a 100% white window, than it is reasonable to assume the Iris would be letting less light in and would possibly make the difference. I still am not total sure why as ideally an iris,in my opinion, should be designed to let enough lite through to give me correct results. once again I go back to the logic that if my math is right there should be enough lite in a particular color to give me correct color. I am no pro at this so I'm just going on logical assumptions here.

I don't want to get of topic here as I know this is a topic for the AVS HD 709 disk and not for discussion on how to calibrate a tv. I am just trying to get a more informed view of the situation so I can determine what pattern to use for the calibration of gray scale and color on a set with a non adjustable Iris.

I haven't heard a definite yes or no one way or the other and I assume that's probably because it depends on the TV. I hope I am steering in the right direction in wanting to use the APL patterns to perform my calibration because it may get me better results, so long as the additional patterns on screen at the same time don't contaminate my readings.


thanks for helping me understand all this. I know it can be frustrating trying to explain all this to an amateur.
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post #1200 of 3625
1/5/09 at 7:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cid67 View Post

so long as the additional patterns on screen at the same time don't contaminate my readings.

Projection generally has some light scatter, and that's why they don't have as high an ANSI contrast as direct view LCD or Plasma. You could do a measurement run with typical windows and then do a measurement run with the APL windows. If you're unintentionally measuring the other colors on the APL image the xy will move compared to the typical windows. My TV is rear projection and doesn't have great ANSI contrast, but the APL xy measurements were very close to the typical windows so it didn't seem an issue on my TV.

EDIT: I meant a comparison with the color patterns.
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