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AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 65

post #1921 of 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The pattern is from Ron at w6rz. He states that the bar moves an even number of pixels for each frame. I think it may be 8 pixels, but I don't want to do the forum search right now. So if the display produces that then there is no judder in the context that I would use the term. My display is supposed to be judder-free and I tried to feed it 24p and 60fps and I couldn't tell the difference, so based on that all I could conclude is that I must not find judder any more annoying than slow frame rate.

Thank you for your answer. After extensive reading and testing I think its safe to conclude - the "stuttering" I notice is due to low frame-rate rather than judder.
post #1922 of 3625
I want to use AVS HD to calibrate my tv's game mode (PS3 connected via HDMI to Sharp Aquos lc46d64u). Should I force the PS3 to output RGB since the PS3 outputs games in RGB or leave it in YPb/CbPr/Cr which AVS HD defaults to? By the way, I have my PS3 set to output Full RGB, not limited.
post #1923 of 3625
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by illuvial View Post

Then I guess I'm requesting someone with the ability to create such a clip. I have no such ability.

Apparently Photoshop has an ability to create in-between frames according to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWrwlg7N36I that returned from a quick search, so this might not be too time consuming. That still leaves some detail items that come to mind:

- What size of line? For example the same size as the existing grid pattern, or say larger like one of the flashing bars like used in the first Basic Settings pattern?

- What sort of speed? For example how long to cross the entire screen, or to pass from one point to another.

- Multiple lines/bars on screen? If so, how many?
post #1924 of 3625
Guys

Which version do I DL to play on a Pio BDP-51 player?

thx

bob
post #1925 of 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Apparently Photoshop has an ability to create in-between frames according to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWrwlg7N36I that returned from a quick search, so this might not be too time consuming. That still leaves some detail items that come to mind:

- What size of line? For example the same size as the existing grid pattern, or say larger like one of the flashing bars like used in the first Basic Settings pattern?

- What sort of speed? For example how long to cross the entire screen, or to pass from one point to another.

- Multiple lines/bars on screen? If so, how many?

I was thinking of a full screen grid of 1/4 inch lines, say 3 inches apart. I think the speed should be about 1 inch per second? The idea being that as a straight line passes through a geometry error, it distorts and becomes obvious. Does that make sense?
post #1926 of 3625
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by illuvial View Post

I was thinking of a full screen grid of 1/4 inch lines, say 3 inches apart. I think the speed should be about 1 inch per second?

All of these depend on display size. I can convert based on a screen size, but by themselves there's no context. The only item as far as authoring is that the original pattern repeats every 3 seconds.
post #1927 of 3625
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Which version do I DL to play on a Pio BDP-51 player?

Based on other Pioneer models, if you have a DVD burner then the Patched version is most likely to work. If you have a Blu-ray burner I think Pioneers have supported HDMV.
post #1928 of 3625
I cant understand why I cant download this. I have used two different computers and two different web browsers on each. it gets to 99 percent and than just hangs for about 10 minutes than it finishes and when i open its corrupted. Been this way for a year now. can you consider a different download service to put this file on. I have never had issue with any download except yours.
post #1929 of 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

All of these depend on display size. I can convert based on a screen size, but by themselves there's no context. The only item as far as authoring is that the original pattern repeats every 3 seconds.

I didn't mean to quote a specific output expectation, just to convey my idea. I suppose that using a middle of the road screen size as a starting point would work. But I imagine 3 seconds is a bit short, maybe 5 or 6.
post #1930 of 3625
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cid67 View Post

can you consider a different download service to put this file on. I have never had issue with any download except yours.

Suggestions on where to host the files are welcome. The current version is showing more than 800GB of downloads. I just counted the Blu-ray versions, so the total is maybe 140GB/month average. We had an early offer from ColorHCFR to host the files and didn't take it simply because there wasn't any bad feedback on the host at the time. When we looked to find a place to put the files Sendspace seemed the most viable free source based on things like dropped uploads and download limits. About the only items I've read about recently that I hadn't heard of at the time would probably be Dropbox and the recent Google Docs announcement, and I haven't looked into either to see if they would work.

EDIT: After glancing at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_hosting_service I tried one that I hadn't seen before.
Here's a trial upload of the current AVCHD - http://www.steekr.com/n/50-17/share/...4b550dcc18ceb/
post #1931 of 3625
Greetings:

Simple question first have read most of this thread and find it interesting and can see that a lot of members have really dedicated their time and expertise on this thread, and I applaud them for it, with that said the current Xrite dispaly 2 is currently going for around $183 with that in mind and all the download and reading and trial and errors for the novice like myself with the disk burning etc, wouldnt it be better to get the calman Spyder 3 with the software that comes with it??? for $379 total versus $183 of course its $196 more but less headaches and I am aware that it would be less fun and less learning with the calman???

So the final question what made most of yous buy the Xrite or whatever colorimeter you have? instead of the Calman product.

Sincerely
post #1932 of 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Based on other Pioneer models, if you have a DVD burner then the Patched version is most likely to work. If you have a Blu-ray burner I think Pioneers have supported HDMV.

Got it!


thx

bob
post #1933 of 3625
zapper -- Buying a package will always be easier than a DIY solution. "You pay your money and take your choice". BTW, Calman also sells a package for/with the Xrite Display 2 also.
post #1934 of 3625
Quote:


I cant understand why I cant download this. I have used two different computers and two different web browsers on each. it gets to 99 percent and than just hangs for about 10 minutes than it finishes and when i open its corrupted. Been this way for a year now. can you consider a different download service to put this file on. I have never had issue with any download except yours.

Thank's for the new link. That did the trick. I was able to successfully extract the file. The download seemed quicker as well.
post #1935 of 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

zapper -- Buying a package will always be easier than a DIY solution. "You pay your money and take your choice". BTW, Calman also sells a package for/with the Xrite Display 2 also.

Thanks for your feedback, but it seems that my boss is not in agreement with me at all, so have to sweet talk her into it, or buy the Xrite Eye-one for $126 not that much expenditure and keep my wife happy, as the saying goes when the wife is not happy no one in the house is.
post #1936 of 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper View Post

Thanks for your feedback, but it seems that my boss is not in agreement with me at all, so have to sweet talk her into it, or buy the Xrite Eye-one for $126 not that much expenditure and keep my wife happy, as the saying goes when the wife is not happy no one in the house is.

You won't really get a better result with the i1 display using CalMAN over ColorHCFR. It might have more features and be more user friendly but the meter won't be any more accurate with one software package over another. CalMAN is best if you wish to get a Spyder 3 or Chroma 5. Those meters have special calibration tables designed to work only with CalMAN (and the Chroma 5 is not supported by ColorHCFR). The i1 display has nothing of that sort in CalMAN.
post #1937 of 3625
I hear you, it's if I can justify to myself to buy the calman Spder 3 and its software and spend that money and in 2 or 3 years if my calibration is off to re-spend it again, do you know what I mean.

The spyder 1 with the threats info and downloads might be good enough and a 1/3 less cost to start off with. The only reason that was thinking of the Calman was for simplicity but I think if I take my time and read all the threads related to the calibration and reading it at ease that I can do it like most of us.

The only thing that is throwing me off is the Blu-ray calibration disk, why do we need it????
post #1938 of 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper View Post

I hear you, it's if I can justify to myself to buy the calman Spder 3 and its software and spend that money and in 2 or 3 years if my calibration is off to re-spend it again, do you know what I mean.

The spyder 1 with the threats info and downloads might be good enough and a 1/3 less cost to start off with. The only reason that was thinking of the Calman was for simplicity but I think if I take my time and read all the threads related to the calibration and reading it at ease that I can do it like most of us.

The only thing that is throwing me off is the Blu-ray calibration disk, why do we need it????

I personally went with the i1 Display LT and the free ColorHCFR software, but the Spyder3 with CalMAN could be better overall and is supposed to be better for front projectors, which I don't have.

A good thing to note about X-Rite's customer service is that their meters are warrantied for one year and if your meter is working incorrectly or becomes inaccurate, they will replace it for free during the warranty period.

The calibration disk is essential for calibrating since you need to put up reference test patterns on your display with a DVD or Blu-ray player. Without these patterns, the meter wouldn't know what to measure.
post #1939 of 3625
I wanted to thank you guys for the awesome work on this material. For three years I had thought that my 720p Plasma was defective because the gamma curve it produced was horrendous (see image below -- dotted yellow line). When I decided to recalibrate it just the other day, I decided to do a comparison between the 10% Gray Windows and the 10% APL Gray Windows and to my excitement my gamma curve actually looked as it should with the APL test patterns!

Unfortunately, for me to get a target gamma of 2.2 I had to lower my contrast to a point where I am only getting ~20 FtL of luminance from a 100% Stimulus window (non-APL). Even with this low luminance value I can still get whiter-that-white values to show up and I can set the appropriate black level so that only blacker-than-black gets crushed. This new enlightenment on APL has brought up some questions I was hoping you guys could answer:
  1. Why did the manufactures of my plasma decide to make gamma dependent on the average picture level? Was it to save money?
  2. Is it worth it to get an accurate average gamma of 2.2 even if that means my max luminance is ~20 FtL? Tom Huffman's guide says plasmas should be in the 30-40 FtL range. Things do look considerably dimmer and my contrast ratio has fallen to ~400 but perhaps this is normal and it's just that my eyes need to adjust to these "correct" settings.
  3. How exactly does a correct gamma manifest itself as far as PQ is concerned? For example, if I decided to go with a average gamma of 1.9, how would that PQ compare to an average gamma of 2.2? What would/should change exactly, is it just the max brightness?

post #1940 of 3625
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiegeX View Post

Why did the manufactures of my plasma decide to make gamma dependent on the average picture level?

I'm not familiar with your TV. My TV has a setting that can change overall brightness depending on the APL of the on-screen image, and the basic idea is that it allows for more difference between dark and bright scenes than the TV can do without the setting. Gamma doesn't necessarily depend on APL, but the way gamma is typically measured is thrown off as the TV changes brightness depending on APL.


Quote:


How exactly does a correct gamma manifest itself as far as PQ is concerned? For example, if I decided to go with a average gamma of 1.9, how would that PQ compare to an average gamma of 2.2? What would/should change exactly, is it just the max brightness?

To understand gamma I think it's helpful to look at the luminance graph. The luminance graph simply represents measured brightness. The graph in ColorHCFR is normalized, so that regardless if white measures 20 FtL or 40 FtL white always shows up on the graph as 100% brightness.

Lets say you open a new measurement file in ColorHCFR and go to the luminance graph. There will be a dotted reference line on the graph. If you mouse over the reference points you can see where exactly they fall between black and white for brightness. For example on the default 2.22 gamma a 50% gray has a normalized brightness of 21.46%. If you were to lower the reference gamma to 1.90 (Advanced pull-down menu, Preferences, References tab, Reference Gamma) you would see that the normalized brightness of a 50% gray would increase to 26.79% brightness.

My main point of bringing up the luminance graph is to call attention to gamma being relative to black and white. What matters for gamma is how brightness changes between black and white. For example if you increase the measured brightness of 50% gray relative to white (go from 21.46% to 26.79%) then you have lowered the gamma for that point. Another way to say it is that, if white remains the same, a darker 50% gray represents a higher gamma.

To answer the main question, what I notice with a higher gamma is that the TV comes out of black more slowly. If gamma is too low then the image can begin to look "washed out" as the near blacks come out of black too quickly and become too bright. To combat a lower gamma you can use more light in the room to try to offset the brighter image near black.


Quote:


Is it worth it to get an accurate average gamma of 2.2 even if that means my max luminance is ~20 FtL? Tom Huffman's guide says plasmas should be in the 30-40 FtL range. Things do look considerably dimmer and my contrast ratio has fallen to ~400 but perhaps this is normal and it's just that my eyes need to adjust to these "correct" settings.

In my opinion any discussion of gamma also has to bring up room lighting. Generally with more light in the room you will want to have a brighter white. More light in the room will also tend to make near blacks appear darker, so a lower gamma is also acceptable in a brighter room. From what I remember I think whites on my TV have generally measured under 30 FtL, but I also tend to use my TV to watch movies with almost no light in the room.
post #1941 of 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I personally went with the i1 Display LT and the free ColorHCFR software, but the Spyder3 with CalMAN could be better overall and is supposed to be better for front projectors, which I don't have.

A good thing to note about X-Rite's customer service is that their meters are warrantied for one year and if your meter is working incorrectly or becomes inaccurate, they will replace it for free during the warranty period.

The calibration disk is essential for calibrating since you need to put up reference test patterns on your display with a DVD or Blu-ray player. Without these patterns, the meter wouldn't know what to measure.

Just bought the Samasung BD-P4600 for a excellent price at a internet place, and re-thinking should go with Calman & Xrite display 2 it's only $80 more then what the internet prices are going for on a Xrite 2 display.
post #1942 of 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

In my opinion any discussion of gamma also has to bring up room lighting. Generally with more light in the room you will want to have a brighter white. More light in the room will also tend to make near blacks appear darker, so a lower gamma is also acceptable in a brighter room. From what I remember I think whites on my TV have generally measured under 30 FtL, but I also tend to use my TV to watch movies with almost no light in the room.

Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful post with a helpful explination of gamma.

Unfortunately, my display does not appear to offer me the choice to disable this brightness changing "feature." This display also plays a dual role in that it is used for both causal TV viewing during the day (with quite a bit of light in the room) as well as critical viewing of HD content. Generally, I tend to watch movies at night with little to no light in the room. Perhaps a compromise of 2.0 would suit my needs best. I'll be sure to pay special attention to make sure that lowering gamma is not inducing color shifts in my grayscale. From your post it appears that I may benefit greatly from a nice D65 bias light, preferably with a dimming feature. Now I just need to find one...
post #1943 of 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiegeX View Post

... From your post it appears that I may benefit greatly from a nice D65 bias light, preferably with a dimming feature. Now I just need to find one...

You might be able to put together a D65 DIY set but Ideal-Lume will probably save you a lot of hassle.
post #1944 of 3625
Hi guys,
Firts of all thanks to all those involved in all the hard work that has gone into making this such a user friendly thread. I just recieved a Xrite Eye-one lt yesterday and downloaded HCFR. Im using the test patterns provided here, the Mp4,exe as im currently calibrating my Epson TW-680 via HDMI through my xbox 360. im having trouble finding the PLUGE pattern to calibrate the brightness. please advise.
thanks in advance
post #1945 of 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by corrupt85 View Post

Hi guys,
im having trouble finding the PLUGE pattern to calibrate the brightness. please advise.

Select ColorHCFR Windows, 10% Grayscale, Chapter 11. It will be a black screen with a white box in the middle.
post #1946 of 3625
why TV companies don't calibrate their TVs ISF style before selling them???
post #1947 of 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by corrupt85 View Post

Hi guys,
Firts of all thanks to all those involved in all the hard work that has gone into making this such a user friendly thread. I just recieved a Xrite Eye-one lt yesterday and downloaded HCFR. Im using the test patterns provided here, the Mp4,exe as im currently calibrating my Epson TW-680 via HDMI through my xbox 360. im having trouble finding the PLUGE pattern to calibrate the brightness. please advise.
thanks in advance

Make sure you don't have that CRUSHING BLACK stuff on, what is the name on the 360? "RBG FULL"? or is that on the PS3?, people need to have that on LIMITED when trying to calibrate for black levels.
post #1948 of 3625
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by corrupt85 View Post

im having trouble finding the PLUGE pattern to calibrate the brightness.

The first pattern in Basic Settings is intended for setting brightness.
post #1949 of 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gslide View Post

why TV companies don't calibrate their TVs ISF style before selling them???


To expensive and when the set is moved around it could loose its calibration, waiting for a manufacture to include a ISF certificate when you buy there sets but in the long run we would be paying for it, one way or another.
post #1950 of 3625
I know alluringreality asked for this some time ago. These files show the effect of flagged/unflagged HD content using the AVSHD709 mp4 files on a media player using a Sigma chipset. Just for reference.

Thanks to alluringreality and the others who helped create these awesome patterns.

On another note, not sure when Sigma plans to correct this.

These results were obtained from a EyeOne Pro. There were no major differences in the greyscale at least on the points I checked.

 

SigmaFlagged.pdf 117.6611328125k . file

 

SigmaUnflagged.pdf 126.2109375k . file
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