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AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 85

post #2521 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleo View Post

Is this new Version going to be Blu-Ray only? or maybe DVD-9?

There will be a new Version 2c of AVS HD 709 for AVCHD compatible playback. The HDMV (Blu-ray authoring) and MP4 will have a few minor corresponding changes and also will be updated to a matching Version 2c. Basically Version 2c is primarily intended to create the AVCHD compatibility that AVCHD-2a failed to provide, and it will also correct the authoring issue uncovered in the v1.3 AVCHD.
post #2522 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimLely View Post

Yes, I did watch the clips.

Thanks to you and everyone else that has provided feedback the past few years. The primary reason this project will end development after the current known issues are sorted out is that when the project started I incorrectly assumed there might be more people willing to contribute in similar ways in order to have a better final product. AVS HD 709 would have never got off the ground without the direct involvement of hwjohn and the input from dr1394, and aside from a few design and authoring challenges with the upcoming AVCHD there's simply not a lot left to hold my interest. Like previously stated, in a project of this sort I have to rely on others for a number of various aspects, so thank you again to all that have contributed.
post #2523 of 3881
Thank you for all you guys have done to create this disc.

I need to get off my ass and make me a new disc with the chromapure chapters for the ps3. Is AVCHDthe best choice?
post #2524 of 3881
Thread Starter 
The HDMV is almost always the best choice for most Blu-ray players, but many people will not have access to a Blu-ray burner. The AVCHD-2a shares authoring with the HDMV and will play from DVD media on the PS3. There is a link near the download for the known issues with AVCHD-2a.
post #2525 of 3881
Spears & munsil, and DVE both specifically instruct the user to adjust the brightness to allow the 2% above black bar to disapear into the background, which is video black, and then adjust the brightness up 1 or 2 clicks until it JUST appears again. (on the DVE disc, this is the pluge pattern with grayscale ramps, and on S&M this is the 4 bar pluge, 4% below, 2% below, 2% above, 4% above)

Quote from S&M disc: "Lower the brightness control until the faintest right bar disappears, then raise it a notch or two until both right bars are visible. When everything is set right, the far-right bar should be clearly visible, and the darker bar should be just barely visible above the background level."


This is very different then how we are instructed to adjust the black level with the AVS HD 709 disc, which has us adjust brightness until bar "17" is flashing. This makes the 2% above black bars on the DVE and S&M discs extremely visible and bright. The difference between the two ways of doing brightness makes a large impact on the picture.

So are there any explanations on this?

I experimented with lots of different content, mainly blu ray movies, television, and some video games, and found no real increase in shadow detail between the two ways of setting up brightness. One setting was just deeper and richer, and the other setting was brighter and slightly more washed. I saw no gain in detail adjusting with the AVS HD 709 disc.

Thoughts?
post #2526 of 3881
Thread Starter 
As far as I'm concerned the perceived brightness of 2% depends on the display's gamma and room lighting. I used to clip a bit of dark gray based on the DVE description. It's rather subtle, but I thought clipping above black was just barely noticeable watching one of the Soprano seasons on Blu-ray in a dim room. Generally the APL Clipping description from http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8968806/Patterns-Manual.pdf is going to be more in line with the commercial patterns I've looked at. Some displays tend to crush the low end on bright scenes, so generally the recommendations error in that direction rather than setting brightness too low.
post #2527 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by 720p View Post

Thanks for your troubles. I now know that it works and that it is something with my installation. I'll investigate further.

A reinstall of tmt3 .185 fixed everything. Sorry for the upset.
post #2528 of 3881
I noticed some troubling issues with the AVCHD (version 2b) on my PS3. On the basic patterns there would be weird flashing artifacts that appeared every couple of seconds, particularly on the 3 clipping patterns. The calibration video gets distorted completely every few seconds. Overall, the 2a version worked much better on my PS3.
post #2529 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I noticed some troubling issues with the AVCHD (version 2b) on my PS3.
Overall, the 2a version worked much better on my PS3.

The newer video encode made the issue with the version 2b and v1.3 AVCHD authoring software stand out. It varies depending on the decoder, but the same video playing differently was the main tip off that something wasn't right somewhere. There are some various items I still have to sort through, but the plan is to author for AVCHD compatibility in a different manner than what was used for version 2b. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post19508902
post #2530 of 3881
I just got this free calibration disc and watch the videos on how to use it but, when I use it on my ps3 in the brightness setting it doesn't flash below 17. I got the patch version in the first page. Anyone having the same problem? Is the patch version the correct one to use for bluray?
post #2531 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Either the patched or AVCHD versions are fine for the PS3, so what you're using is good. I have spent very little time using a PS3, but by default I don't think it passes the 2-15 levels. The following link goes to the settings that have been reported to pass the levels beyond black and white http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post18106831 Some displays may also not show the levels lower than black or higher than white, so it might depend on display settings. Anyway, most likely the settings from the link will probably show the additional levels.
post #2532 of 3881
^^^Thanks

Where could I get one of those blue things to fix the color and tint?
post #2533 of 3881
Thread Starter 
http://www.costore.com/thx/producten...=87&pid=930793 is probably the cheapest. There are some other options mentioned in the manual.
post #2534 of 3881
can HDMV be used with PS3 through PS3 hard drive rather than Bluray disc? as i dont have Bluray recorder.
post #2535 of 3881
Thread Starter 
The PS3 can read m2ts files, yet it would probably be easier to burn the version labeled AVCHD from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19419370 to DVD media. It will play from DVD media on the PS3. Both the AVCHD from the link and the AVCHD from the current first post have a few known issues that will eventually be cleaned up, but either is usable for a number of applications.
post #2536 of 3881
alluringreality,

The AVCHD and HDMV versions on a DVD R play on the Dune BD Prime 3.0 player (also a media player but a BD player as well).

The HDMV on a DVD does not play on the PS3 fat. The AVCHD plays on the PS3 fat but the crosshatch/convergence do not play on the PS3 fat. They hang up and display the disc menu, and the only way to get out is to use the stop button and restart. Not seen this reported so I am not sure if it is only my disc.

Both play on the Oppo BDP-83 as reported.
post #2537 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by venkatesh_m View Post

AVCHD and HDMV versions on a DVD R play on the Dune BD Prime 3.0 player

Thanks for the reply. I've added it to the Version 2 list.

Quote:


The HDMV on a DVD does not play on the PS3 fat.

The PS3 requires the extended information from AVCHD or PATCHED to play Blu-ray based authoring from DVD media.

Quote:


The AVCHD plays on the PS3 fat but the crosshatch/convergence do not play on the PS3 fat.

This was previously reported for AVCHD-2a. The patterns will be removed from the future AVCHD-2c revision, because the new AVCHD authoring does not provide a way to include the patterns.
post #2538 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

As far as I'm concerned the perceived brightness of 2% depends on the display's gamma and room lighting. I used to clip a bit of dark gray based on the DVE description. It's rather subtle, but I thought clipping above black was just barely noticeable watching one of the Soprano seasons on Blu-ray in a dim room. Generally the APL Clipping description from http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8968806/Patterns-Manual.pdf is going to be more in line with the commercial patterns I've looked at. Some displays tend to crush the low end on bright scenes, so generally the recommendations error in that direction rather than setting brightness too low.

True, but isn't setting a monitor up to display these 2% black bars like instructed on the DVE blu ray the incorrect way to setup brightness for video reproduction?

I thought video black was at 7.5%.

Panasonic's explanation for setting brightness with such a pattern like the DVE blu-ray or AVS disc is this:

"When originating from a true video pattern generator, the 2.5% bar is actually below black, as the value of video black is 7.5 IRE. So the black setting on your plasma monitor is dependent on your video/RGB source and the value of black setup."

Or, do the AVS discs and DVE discs try to get you to display 2% ABOVE 7.5IRE, which is video black. That would make sense.
post #2539 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Either the patched or AVCHD versions are fine for the PS3, so what you're using is good. I have spent very little time using a PS3, but by default I don't think it passes the 2-15 levels. The following link goes to the settings that have been reported to pass the levels beyond black and white http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post18106831 Some displays may also not show the levels lower than black or higher than white, so it might depend on display settings. Anyway, most likely the settings from the link will probably show the additional levels.

What's the next step on setting contrast if the bars don't blend and your not noticing any color shifts towards pink and what not? Do you have to calibrate with a meter to make sure colors aren't clipping with contrast at max?
post #2540 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmitts View Post

What's the next step on setting contrast if the bars don't blend and your not noticing any color shifts towards pink and what not? Do you have to calibrate with a meter to make sure colors aren't clipping with contrast at max?

There are a couple pattern in Misc Patterns to look at color clipping and gamma. I think they're in Section A, but off hand I don't remember and they might be in Section B for version 1. If grayscale is clipping above reference white (235) you're probably good, but it wouldn't be a bad idea just to check the color steps and clipping for red, green, and blue near 235.
post #2541 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

Or, do the AVS discs and DVE discs try to get you to display 2% ABOVE 7.5IRE, which is video black. That would make sense.

The percentage values on the disc are relative to video black and video white, so you have the general idea. DVE uses the same reference. Avia uses a different reference, and I think that there is an appendix in the GetGray manual that compares the Avia markings to percent gray.

IRE primarily has to do with analog connections, and outside of that sphere I consider it to have limited practical use. Without hunting down my old comments on the subject, I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think the 7.5 IRE item would even typically apply to HD analog connections in the USA. The 7.5 IRE item primarily represents a voltage that some analog connections use for black (NTSC in USA), but I believe some analog connections commonly also use 0 V for black. If you're using a digital connection like HDMI the setup voltage is generally off-topic, but I have seen at least one player that for some reason or other had an IRE setting that affected the digital levels (it was probably for switching between video and computer levels). If you really want to read more I believe there is an old thread the subject. My personal opinion is for calibration it's best to refrain from using IRE in order to avoid any unnecessary confusion.
post #2542 of 3881
I have the Pan. BD65 Blu-ray player hooked up to a Mits. HC3800(DLP) projector. When I set the contrast with your test pattern, I come up with 18(out of 30). When I use the S&M disc, I get 8(out of 30). What do you suggest? How do I know what's right? Thanks.
post #2543 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post
When I set the contrast with your test pattern, I come up with 18(out of 30). When I use the S&M disc, I get 8(out of 30). What do you suggest? How do I know what's right?
If you start with contrast set to maximum there are a number of factors that might suggest turning down contrast. You don't really comment on what criteria is suggesting that you set contrast lower using the Spears & Munsil disc. Basically to comment I have to take a wild stab at it.

I have not used the Spears & Munsil disc. I have only read some of the writing related to their disc, such as the comments on contrast. Since I do not have a copy I cannot be sure, but I think their patterns may go above reference white. My best guess is that their criteria might suggest to calibrate for maximum white (254), rather than reference white (235). If you try to optimize for maximum white (254), sure the contrast setting would be lower than if you choose to optimize for reference white (235).

Personally I don't see much reason to retain information above reference white (235) at the display, unless a high contrast setting has a detrimental effect below reference white on a particular TV. My general recommendation to allow 244 gray to flash is because some displays have a few negative effects near where white runs out, and the recommendation is intended to be conservative to try to avoid negative effects going below reference white. Based on the results in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post18425133 and my own looks at video levels from random commercial video I don't have any common examples of real information above reference white, so generally I think it makes sense to calibrate for reference white (235), rather than maximum white (254). The recommendations from the AVS HD 709 Patterns Manual are simply intended to apply to as many different displays as possible, without being overly dense.
post #2544 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

If you start with contrast set to maximum there are a number of factors that might suggest turning down contrast. You don't really comment on what criteria is suggesting that you set contrast lower using the Spears & Munsil disc. Basically to comment I have to take a wild stab at it.

I have not used the Spears & Munsil disc. I have only read some of the writing related to their disc, such as the comments on contrast. Since I do not have a copy I cannot be sure, but I think their patterns may go above reference white. My best guess is that their criteria might suggest to calibrate for maximum white (254), rather than reference white (235). If you try to optimize for maximum white (254), sure the contrast setting would be lower than if you choose to optimize for reference white (235).

Personally I don't see much reason to retain information above reference white (235) at the display, unless a high contrast setting has a detrimental effect below reference white on a particular TV. My general recommendation to allow 244 gray to flash is because some displays have a few negative effects near where white runs out, and the recommendation is intended to be conservative to try to avoid negative effects going below reference white. Based on the results in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post18425133 and my own looks at video levels from random commercial video I don't have any common examples of real information above reference white, so generally I think it makes sense to calibrate for reference white (235), rather than maximum white (254). The recommendations from the AVS HD 709 Patterns Manual are simply intended to apply to as many different displays as possible, without being overly dense.

Thanks. I think I'm more confused than ever now. So I should use 244 for my setting? Another thing I checked with the S&M disc is the Clipping pattern. I found out it is clipping red(the red box was solid). To get anything to show up in the red box, I had to lower contrast to -6. Does that mean I should use -6 for contrast?
post #2545 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Thanks. I think I'm more confused than ever now. So I should use 244 for my setting?

All of my current recommendations are in http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8968806/Patterns-Manual.pdf They're intended to be about as simple as possible, while still covering some frequently asked questions and common problems that might come up. The only way I can think to make the recommendation any more basic was my comment at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post18481977, but that's not as thorough as the manual.

Quote:


Another thing I checked with the S&M disc is the Clipping pattern. I found out it is clipping red(the red box was solid). To get anything to show up in the red box, I had to lower contrast to -6. Does that mean I should use -6 for contrast?

To simplify my previous recent response, basically I said that I'm not the person to ask about how to use the Spears & Munsil patterns. The AVS HD 709 Misc. Patterns titled "Color Steps" and "Color Clipping" from the latest manual represent my opinion for what it's worthwhile to consider in regards to color.
post #2546 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The project is in the process of being updated to Version 2c. This area will include the latest downloads, and it will be revised as the uploads finish. The current plan is to switch to Wuala as the main file host, so please report if there are any serious downloading issues. Anyone that has not used one of the prior versions may want to wait until the first post has been changed to the latest 2c release. This update could take all of November 27 & 28 before it might be complete.



AVCHD (.exe) or AVCHD (.7z)
Iso MD5: 77792ac69025a838a60bf9eff98579f3
Plays on: AVCHD compatible Blu-ray players. The Blu-ray Players List at the end of this post includes for more information to determine if your Blu-ray player supports AVCHD.
Burn to: DVD writable media with a DVD burner.
Includes: Most content available from AVS HD 709. Refer to the Patterns Manual for more information.
Not Included: Popup menus, top navigation, and some Misc. Patterns. These items come from authoring limitations for AVCHD.

Wow! Thanks for your supreme effort on this new version. I don't have a Blu-Ray burner (iso isn't up yet anyway) so I burned AVCHD (.exe). The download went flawlessly - more thanks.

Great job. I use ChromaPure Pro and everything I need is now on one DVD. Read my lips: "NO MORE DISC CHANGING".
post #2547 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Thanks. I think I'm more confused than ever now. So I should use 244 for my setting? Another thing I checked with the S&M disc is the Clipping pattern. I found out it is clipping red(the red box was solid). To get anything to show up in the red box, I had to lower contrast to -6. Does that mean I should use -6 for contrast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

All of my current recommendations are in http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8968806/Patterns-Manual.pdf They're intended to be about as simple as possible, while still covering some frequently asked questions and common problems that might come up. The only way I can think to make the recommendation any more basic was my comment at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post18481977, but that's not as thorough as the manual.



To simplify my previous recent response, basically I said that I'm not the person to ask about how to use the Spears & Munsil patterns. The AVS HD 709 Misc. Patterns titled "Color Steps" and "Color Clipping" from the latest manual represent my opinion for what it's worthwhile to consider in regards to color.

I have both S&M and the latest AVS HD709 discs, and I get basically the same results with the two for everything, including the soft clipping tests.

One little thing to watch out for is the blue filters provided with S&M. There are 3 ways to use them, and the settings can be very different if they are not used properly. But this pertains to color, and your issue is with contrast, so ...
post #2548 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

I have both S&M and the latest AVS HD709 discs, and I get basically the same results with the two for everything, including the soft clipping tests.

One little thing to watch out for is the blue filters provided with S&M. There are 3 ways to use them, and the settings can be very different if they are not used properly. But this pertains to color, and your issue is with contrast, so ...

Thanks. I think it's some problem with my BD65 Blu-ray player, but I don't know what.
post #2549 of 3881
Fantantic - this was just what I was looking for to calibrate my new Panasonic TH50PF20 panel. Thanks for your hard work.

FYI, I couldn't get TMT5 to work on the HDMV version - loaded the ISO - showed the menu, but nothing happened when I clicked on one of the items except the credits. The AVCHD version works ok with it.
post #2550 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The project is in the process of being updated to Version 2c....

AVCHD (.exe) or AVCHD (.7z)
Iso MD5: 77792ac69025a838a60bf9eff98579f3
Plays on: AVCHD compatible Blu-ray players. The Blu-ray Players List at the end of this post includes for more information to determine if your Blu-ray player supports AVCHD.
Burn to: DVD writable media with a DVD burner.
Includes: Most content available from AVS HD 709. Refer to the Patterns Manual for more information.
Not Included: Popup menus, top navigation, and some Misc. Patterns. These items come from authoring limitations for AVCHD.

Alluringreality,

I tested the AVCHD.exe version this morning. I really like the new menu design.

On the Panasonic DMP-BD85K the disk launches fine. The Video plays fine. However there is something wonky with chapter changes. I was unable to get the skip chapter key to work to move to the next slide on any of the patterns. If I left the slide up long enough it would time out and move to the next.

On my PS3 everything appeared to work as it should.

Thanks,

Michael
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