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AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 98

post #2911 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpm197 View Post

the gamma is around 2.3 without tweaking

the luminance runs below the white target line all way the up.

Gamma is basically the same as normalized luminance. Gamma is just a different way to represent the normalized luminance information. In preferences on the reference tab is a setting for gamma. Since your gamma is higher than the default setting of 2.22, your luminance is expected to generally fall below the reference luminance. If you change the gamma setting in preferences it will change the reference luminance line.
post #2912 of 3881
thanks both, i'll carry on tweaking tonight
post #2913 of 3881
i've got a much better result now, seems i had adjusted the gamma by a point somewhere along the line.

almost finished calibrating now and quite happy with the results, but i've got a bit of a rogue value. when reading primary and secondary colours, red has a deltaE of 3.0 and green has a deltaE of 2.9, but blue has a deltaE of 11.7! any idea what could be causing this?
post #2914 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpm197 View Post

i've got a much better result now, seems i had adjusted the gamma by a point somewhere along the line.

almost finished calibrating now and quite happy with the results, but i've got a bit of a rogue value. when reading primary and secondary colours, red has a deltaE of 3.0 and green has a deltaE of 2.9, but blue has a deltaE of 11.7! any idea what could be causing this?

You need to break the DeltaE now a bit, and see what's the issue. It could be saturation, hue, or luminance. Depending on your device, you might have NO CMS (then you can't do anything), some CMS (maybe you can vary luminance..), full 3D CMS (you can change everything!).
For HCFR, not sure if you can break it down into LHS. However, you should at least be able to look at delta luma and see what % is it off by.
post #2915 of 3881
i need to check the service menu to see if it has any LHS settings.

but i guess before that, i watched a few programmes with my new settings and for the most part the images were really good, especially CARS on bbc hd, but football and F1 were really poor on the green, they had the neon grass effect!
post #2916 of 3881
i've got a discussion in this thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post20844025
post #2917 of 3881
Lame question about black clipping patternt #1



When I sit in front of tv i can see that 17 flashes but when i look from another angle i can see that 16 bar flashes too - from this angle i took down one notch and 16 dissapeard, 17 still flashes from THIS angle. It's good huh? But...
When I sit in front on tv I cannot see 17 bar, 18-above flashes.

Which settings should i keep?

Sorry for my english, seriosuly if you dont get my point I'll draw for you.
post #2918 of 3881
You obviously have an LCD TV and as a result you need to calibrate it directly in front for an accurate result.

Ps, not intending to start a flame war, but this is one reason why ppl in the know prefer plasma tv's!
post #2919 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex19 View Post

When I sit in front of tv i can see that 17 flashes but when i look from another angle i can see that 16 bar flashes too - from this angle i took down one notch and 16 dissapeard, 17 still flashes from THIS angle. It's good huh? But...
When I sit in front on tv I cannot see 17 bar, 18-above flashes.

Which settings should i keep?

When you're at a usual viewing location it is preferable if you can just notice 19 flash on the APL Clipping pattern - Chaper 2. That may match with the lower setting described in the quote.
post #2920 of 3881
hi guys, i wanna ask, i've just bought new samsung la32d450 lcd, and i'm never do any calibrating before, my question :

1. may i download this calibrator and play it with usb stick via video player on samsung lcd? my series is able to play movie via usb
2. which one i must download if it can? or if it cannot?
3. is there any different if i play it via cheap dvd, usb stick, hd player, or nice dvd player?

thx u so much for your helping, sorry for my bad english
post #2921 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunzjack View Post
1. may i download this calibrator and play it with usb stick via video player on samsung lcd? my series is able to play movie via usb
2. which one i must download if it can? or if it cannot?
The mp4 version is most likely to work, but I am not familiar with the capabilities of the video player. The TV's manual is likely to list what formats can play.

Quote:
3. is there any different if i play it via cheap dvd, usb stick, hd player, or nice dvd player?
It's difficult to say with certainty. Part of the reason for the video is to test how various electronics actually perform.
post #2922 of 3881
i found that with the usb version i couldn't display as many bars on the contrast adjustment as i could when using the blu-ray version.
post #2923 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The mp4 version is most likely to work, but I am not familiar with the capabilities of the video player. The TV's manual is likely to list what formats can play.



It's difficult to say with certainty. Part of the reason for the video is to test how various electronics actually perform.

i've downloaded the mp4 version and it's playable at my samsung lcd, but i cannot show blue filter mode when play via usb, must via dvd, maybe i download the disc version

i'm confuse at white clipping, what must be adjusted?
post #2924 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunzjack View Post

i'm confuse at white clipping, what must be adjusted?

Most manufacturers call the control contrast. See the PDF download.
post #2925 of 3881
Just tried the AVCHD DVD on my Panasonic DMP-BDT210 Blu-ray player and it works perfectly, including chapter skips and pop-up menus. So no problems with "Known Issue #3".
post #2926 of 3881
thanks for this calibration disc

i was wondering, would this work if i make an iso and play this throught my laptop to the tv connected in hdmi?.
post #2927 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Generally the idea is to play the calibration video in a similar manner to how you might typically watch other video. For example many people might watch video from a Blu-ray player, so they would also run the calibration video on the Blu-ray player. So if you typically use the computer for playing video that's fine, but if you don't typically use the computer for playing video you may run into issues. The main problem is that different electronics might alter the video, and generally computers by default alter the video. In order to use another device for calibration you generally need to use some sort of comparison, and in that case it may be easier if you are using measurements.
post #2928 of 3881
Hi guys i have a question, my hdtv is a samsung plasma 3dtv should i calibrate from my standard viewing position or in front the tv?
post #2929 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Generally the idea is to use your standard viewing position, but on the Black Clipping pattern you can follow some of the recommendations from the PDF to make the flashing easier to see.
post #2930 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by monee View Post

thanks for this calibration disc

i was wondering, would this work if i make an iso and play this throught my laptop to the tv connected in hdmi?.

One problem with doing that is the laptop has it's own graphics characteristics and controls. So, unless it is calibrated to output proper levels via the HDMI your TV may look ok with that result, but not be accurate for other inputs and devices.

There is some controversy regarding input device peculiarities and calibration. I have found that even using the AVS HD709 media on 3 different Blu-ray players renders somewhat different results, even with all player's settings in a "neutral" condition.
post #2931 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

One problem with doing that is the laptop has it's own graphics characteristics and controls. So, unless it is calibrated to output proper levels via the HDMI your TV may look ok with that result, but not be accurate for other inputs and devices.

There is some controversy regarding input device peculiarities and calibration. I have found that even using the AVS HD709 media on 3 different Blu-ray players renders somewhat different results, even with all player's settings in a "neutral" condition.

Yes, and the only way to be sure is to connect a reference signal generator directly to the same TV input and make a comparison.
post #2932 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Generally the idea is to use your standard viewing position, but on the Black Clipping pattern you can follow some of the recommendations from the PDF to make the flashing easier to see.

Thanks!!!
post #2933 of 3881
@alluringreality

Do you plan to release a new version with small window pathes for grayscale and 75% color patterns?

I am not sure but I guess the Panasonic VT30 plasma would require smaller window patches. I think the size of the small APL patterns would be great.

A calibration with large window patterns cuase a diseaster. I didn't had time to try with Small APL but if there will be a next time I would have small window patches on a disc next to me.
post #2934 of 3881
I'm trying to calibrate LG 50PK550 with Eye One Display 2 colorimeter using AVS HD 709 patterns.

I'm little confused with Limited RGB vs Full RGB settings.

My setup is: LG 50PK550 plasma connected to HTPC (AMD Fusion E-350 (integrated Radeon 6310)) through Marantz SR5004 receiver (all connected with HDMI).

I can setup black levels on:
1. LG - Low black (16-235), High black (0-255)
2. AMD driver (Full RGB (0-255), Limited RGB(16-235), YCbCr 4:4:4)
3. Renderer (madVR, WMC7, EVR CP...)
4. Receiver (I choose "HDMI through", cannot choose black levels, just hope that it doesn't mess signal)

So, alot of places where something can go wrong
First I tried between Low and High black on LG Plasma. When i choose High, blacks on cable set top box look grey (also connected through receiver). I don't want to change picture mode everytime when i switch between TV and set top box, so I kept setting at Low.

What I thought is when you choose Limited RGB that you can't see flashing bars below 16 on AVS HD 709 patterns, no matter how much you crank up brightness (but I was obviously wrong).

So I played a bit with different settings, the results are:

Black level on tv was always on Low black (16-235), brightness at constant level (46), MP4 pattern Black clipping
a) ATI driver - Limited RGB or YCbCr
1. MPC-HC EVR CP (16-235) - bars 17-25 flashing
2. MPC HC EVR CP (0-255) - no bars flashing
3. WMP 12 - no bars flashing
4. WMC 7 - bars 17-25 flashing
5. TotalMedia Theatre 5 - no bars flashing
6. PowerDVD - no bars flashing
7. MPC-HC madVR(16-235) - bars 17-25 flashing
8. MPC-HC madVR(0-255) - no bars flashing

If I crank up brightness, then i can see bars 2-25 flashing.

b) ATI driver - FULL RGB
no bars flashing in any setup (if I crank up brightness, I can see bars 17-25 flashing)

So, I Think that WMP, TMT and PowerDVD use 0-255 black range (couldn't find settings where you can change this), and WMC7 uses 16-235 range.

So, I'm little confused, shouldn't Limited RGB clip values below 16 black. Or there is some kind of expansion?

What is the "proper" way to connect everything?

99% of time I play 1080P MKV's through WMC7 or MPC-HC EVR-CP.

I think that proper settings are:
1. Limited RGB on TV
2. Limited RGB in ATI driver
3. Limited RGB in renderer

but correct me if I'm wrong (I can also set everything to Full RGB, but then blacks are grey on my set top box).
And if I understood this correctly, my pictures won't be accurately displayed with Limited RGB setting (because they need PC levels).

If someone can clear this mess up for me, I would be very thankful.
post #2935 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtosic View Post

I don't want to change picture mode everytime when i switch between TV and set top box

Then you probably have to output video levels (16-235) from the computer. Many computers default to outputting computer levels (0-255). In http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1357093 I think there is some discussion around outputting the desktop at video levels.

Quote:


So, I'm little confused, shouldn't Limited RGB clip values below 16 black.

Limited usually means a 16-235 range for black to white. If you have the TV set to expect a limited input (16-235 black to white) and the computer is outputting computer levels (0-255 for black to white) then you probably won't see any flashing with the default brightness setting on the TV. I think this sort of operation is what your tests generally indicated, where the computer might have been usually outputting computer levels and the TV expected video levels.

Quote:


Or there is some kind of expansion?

The default for many computers is to expand video to computer levels (0-255 for black to white), which throws away the below black (1-15) and above white (236-254) video. 16 in the video goes to 0 and 235 from the video becomes 255 with typical expansion.

Quote:


What is the "proper" way to connect everything?

Generally for video the ideal is to output video levels, but that isn't in line with how most computers operate. As mentioned in the above link, generally you have to make a compromise in one way or another if you want to use a computer for playing video and other tasks.
post #2936 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

Do you plan to release a new version with small window pathes for grayscale and 75% color patterns?

Currently I'm not considering revisions or turning the project into a BD-ROM. If you want to create your own video there are some notes at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16837914

I haven't seen enough well-documented testing to support the idea of using small windows. The best testing that I have seen for how plasmas operate was by zoyd, where he used a constant video level and measured what happened as APL increased, but he only posted about three video levels on one TV, so it wasn't very thorough.

My opinion is that measuring both the large and small APL patterns will relate to how the TV operates. The APL pattern measurements are also more along the lines of what Poynton typically talks about in his theoretical discussions of gamma. More of my opinion is at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post20675013, but basically neither small window or larger window measurements will result in relative information across displays, so I don't see much point in using window measurements.
post #2937 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post


Currently I'm not considering revisions or turning the project into a BD-ROM. If you want to create your own video there are some notes at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16837914

I haven't seen enough well-documented testing to support the idea of using small windows. The best testing that I have seen for how plasmas operate was by zoyd, where he used a constant video level and measured what happened as APL increased, but he only posted about three video levels on one TV, so it wasn't very thorough.

My opinion is that measuring both the large and small APL patterns will relate to how the TV operates. The APL pattern measurements are also more along the lines of what Poynton typically talks about in his theoretical discussions of gamma. More of my opinion is at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post20675013, but basically neither small window or larger window measurements will result in relative information across displays, so I don't see much point in using window measurements.

Just a small clarification, I measured a two-point gamma as a function of APL on two different displays to show that both panasonics and samsungs exhibit the same behavior. I can measure additional video level response if there is any interest but it wont change my general conclusions. I think measuring gamma using windowed patterns on these displays is pointless because the measured value will depend on the size of the window. Use a constant APL pattern which does not probe your brightness limiter at the high end.
post #2938 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Just a small clarification, I measured a two-point gamma as a function of APL on two different displays to show that both panasonics and samsungs exhibit the same behavior. I can measure additional video level response if there is any interest but it wont change my general conclusions. I think measuring gamma using windowed patterns on these displays is pointless because the measured value will depend on the size of the window. Use a constant APL pattern which does not probe your brightness limiter at the high end.
Large APL windows or small APL windows matter?

Not sure if there are any whole screen APL options.

[EDIT] For others who may know as little as I, the answer is large APL. There is a big discussion between alluringreality and zoyd, some of which I thought maybe I could understand but almost none of which I can explain. Except that the answer is the large APL windows in the AVS HD 709 disc, and that this is a "plasma thing".

I can't post the link, sorry. (competing forum I guess)

There was a post earlier in that thread by a pro calibrator that mentioned his preference for an older version of the AVS disc, followed up by an unanswered question about how, or if, the older version can be found. Not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere ..... alluringreality?
post #2939 of 3881
I just want to say THANKS to everyone that helped create this excellent bluray calibration disc. I have been using it with my Calman V4 software and i1Pro.
post #2940 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
The default for many computers is to expand video to computer levels (0-255 for black to white), which throws away the below black (1-15) and above white (236-254) video. 16 in the video goes to 0 and 235 from the video becomes 255 with typical expansion.
If my TV expects 16-235, and PC is outputting 0-255, what is correct:
a) linear contraction (0 becomes 16, 1~17, 2~18...255=235) or
b) 1-15 and and 235-255 are just thrown away and 16 is mapped to 16, and 235 to 235 (which means that I lost information from original video).


Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
Generally for video the ideal is to output video levels, but that isn't in line with how most computers operate. As mentioned in the above link, generally you have to make a compromise in one way or another if you want to use a computer for playing video and other tasks.
99% of time I use HTPC for video playback, so video calibration is my primary concern.
I'm OK if videos on youtube will play in incorrect colors.

Thanks for your help (and the link)
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