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AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 102

post #3031 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

In the portion you quoted I was just saying that xy values from measurements on the CIE diagram are generally not expected to vary much, regardless of the pattern chosen. The pattern 'A5 - Dynamic Brightness' has more to do with gamma, Y measurements, or light output (rather than xy measurements). One of the reasons for including the Dynamic Brightness pattern was simply to look at how some display controls function, and it can also be used to observe that various displays react differently to changes in average brightness.

The "Black Level Bars + Steps + Varying Gray" pattern on the Avia II DVD is a similar idea. That pattern also has some constant video level bars on the screen and average brightness increases as the video plays. Either the Dynamic Brightness pattern or the Avia video hint at the issue of measuring typical windows while trying to "calibrate" gamma. As these patterns indicate, various displays simply do not perform similarly regarding light output as average brightness changes. When someone measures Y with typical windows they are measuring a changing average brightness, along with measuring different video levels. With the APL measurement patterns they are only measuring different video levels, while average brightness remains constant for the series. Measuring gamma with windows is sort of similar to trying to measure the bars from one of the patterns mentioned as the video plays (See Example). Measuring the APL series is similar to pausing one of the patterns mentioned (so average brightness remains constant) and looking at the bars.

Example: Typically on consumer plasma the light output (Y measure) of the bars will change as average brightness adjusts, and usually with fixed backlight LCD the light output (Y measure) for individual video levels remains constant as average brightness changes - which is basically what you stated.

Thanks for the reply. Many of us new to plasma notice that the black letterbox bars change as the scene varies, and there is a lot of complaining about this in the threads of these Samsung. Seems like this is perhaps more prominent in the current models than previously, and maybe I'm not correct in saying it is us new to plasma.

Some have tried to tell Samsung or show Samsung techs this but have difficulty showing it at times in the daytime. I found that the A5 pattern did this fluctuating and thought maybe this was a good way to demonstrate this flaw.

If in fact it IS a flaw. Maybe it's just what plasmas do. I get the feeling that's the case from what you say.
post #3032 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

If in fact it IS a flaw. Maybe it's just what plasmas do. I get the feeling that's the case from what you say.

There are a couple of items that people talk about with plasma. Potentially either of these could affect gamma, or how the on-screen video levels transition between black and white:

1) Light variation near black. Fluctuating brightness (FBr) was what zoyd used to describe the effect. I figure this sort of thing is where the 'is it a defect' discussion results.

2) Power limiting, or light variation near white. This is basically what concerns AtDaBeach and others that buy the smaller windows theory. As overall screen brightness increases there will tend to be a reduction on the light output near white. This is simply a necessary engineering compromise. You can see the effect on the Dynamic Brightness or the mentioned Avia pattern for plasma, where the 100% bar will dim as the background gets brighter. I cannot say how exactly studio monitors perform in this respect, and for a few other reasons my opinion is that it's generally difficult to precisely define a target gamma for consumer displays.
post #3033 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

There are a couple of items that people talk about with plasma. Potentially either of these could affect gamma, or how the on-screen video levels transition between black and white:

1) Light variation near black. Fluctuating brightness (FBr) was what zoyd used to describe the effect. I figure this sort of thing is where the 'is it a defect' discussion results.

2) Power limiting, or light variation near white. This is basically what concerns AtDaBeach and others that buy the smaller windows theory. As overall screen brightness increases there will tend to be a reduction on the light output near white. This is simply a necessary engineering compromise. You can see the effect on the Dynamic Brightness or the mentioned Avia pattern for plasma, where the 100% bar will dim as the background gets brighter. I cannot say how exactly studio monitors perform in this respect, and for a few other reasons my opinion is that it's generally difficult to precisely define a target gamma for consumer displays.

Yes FBr is what they refer to it as. Zoyd appears to be on a quest for a fix in the SM.
post #3034 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Yes FBr is what they refer to it as. Zoyd appears to be on a quest for a fix in the SM.

I've posted elsewhere that I do not like the term "Fluctuating Brightness" because it infers a random process (a defect). It is not a technical defect and is part of the design of the current plasma lines. You could argue it is a bad design decision but that is another matter. A better term would be dynamic contrast or APL variable gamma. It appears that variable gamma is implemented as part of the drive mechanism and can't be disabled in either Samsungs or Panasonics. Panasonic has addressed a problem with the way they implemented variable gamma, by issuing firmware upgrades and board swaps to minimize noticeability of gamma shifts during certain types of scene changes. Personally I have not seen any similarly noticeable shifts in my Samsung D8000, so for me it is a non-issue.

A separate problem has been reported by various samsung owners (typically referred to as "brightness pops") which from what I gather is a shift in video black as a function of APL. Again, the terminology makes it difficult to figure out exactly what these folks are seeing but a couple of people whose opinion I respect have seen subtle shifts in black (video level 16) so I think something is going on. Unfortunately, my display does not exhibit this behavior and I haven't been able to reproduce it under any test conditions.
post #3035 of 3881
I am working with a Mitsubishi rear projector. This is the WD-82837, a 2009 82" with a dynamic iris that not defeatable.

I have a Ceton cablecard and have gone to whole house video around the Ceton. Anyway, my sources are now 99 percent PC. The PC I am using on the Mits as a source has an intel iGPU. The downside of the PC is that it is not as sharp as your typical CE device.. there is an odd upside for my display. The intel iGPU clips completely above white and below black. Actually it clips below 18 so there is a bit of contrast loss.

Anyway, my set clips green in the above white badly at reasonable contrast levels so clipping above 235 is fine by me.. what is not displayed can not be discolored.

I used the APL patterns both grayscale and 75% color. The results were interesting. I found that color appeared much more saturated than when done with window patterns. I especially noticed that SD commercials inside HD broadcasts looked much more correct than in the past. I did not notice that much difference in the numbers. I did make some adjustments to grayscale, gamma and gamut but they seemed quite minor numerically but the result was a much better calibration.

Oh if only, ChromaPure could use the AVS disc patterns on a PC and auto-calibrate with the DUO or Radiance. I do a base calibration with the DUO and auto-calibrate. I then make some adjustments in the TV's CMS run auto-calibrate again. Then I use the ASV patterns on the PC and adjust again using the DUO and the TV's built CMS.

The results look quite nice. Now my display is not the sharpest out there and stock renderer in Windows Media Center does not produce the same results as the best CE Devices but it looks pretty darn good with much thanks to the AVS 709 APL patterns.
post #3036 of 3881
Any plans on creating 3d patterns for Grayscale & Color decoder or is that out of the question?
post #3037 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Currently there are no planned revisions or new releases. I only briefly looked into the plausibility of 3D encoding last year, so I cannot really comment on how easy or difficult it might be to encode and verify 3D patterns. 3D happens to be mentioned in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21116118
post #3038 of 3881
May want to include that you need >700mb disk to burn to for DVD's. Back to the store I go!
post #3039 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by QN52 View Post

May want to include that you need >700mb disk to burn to for DVD's. Back to the store I go!

Well u need a blank DVD to burn a DVD
post #3040 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by QN52 View Post

May want to include that you need >700mb disk to burn to for DVD's. Back to the store I go!

700mb is a blank CD, not a blank DVD.

You cannot burn 4gb+ of DVD content to a 700mb blank CD. That really shouldn't need to be said.
post #3041 of 3881
Do the links still work?

*nevermind found one
post #3042 of 3881
There must be at least one person who did a 100% White Window covering 10% or under of the screen for Plasma measurement. If you have please send me a copy, I need it to correctly measure the light output of my Display to adjust Contrast, Small APL is too big for Plasma and doesn't give correct a fT measurement.
post #3043 of 3881
I can report that the Samsung BD-C5500 works fine with the AVCHD (.exe) version of this download, including track skipping and the popup menu.
I used DVD-R media and the ImgBurn software.
post #3044 of 3881
I'm trying this disc on a new Sharp LC-60LE6300U I got on Black Friday. I am connecting to my display on my laptop using a vga cable (I'm not sure if this would affect the calibration). On the Black Clipping test I can only barely make out the 25th bar, and that is if I turn brightness all the way up. I tried adjusting contrast/color/tint and the backlight to see if I could get anymore, but no luck. Any idea if this is a setup issue? Could this be the TV/LED?
post #3045 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by op157 View Post

I am connecting to my display on my laptop using a vga cable (I'm not sure if this would affect the calibration).

By default most computers expand video levels to computer levels, which would discard the information below reference black. From what you've posted either the TV or the computer, or a combination of TV and computer, may be responsible for the remaining missing information. If you do not use the computer for watching video there's little reason to try to track down the source of the issue. If you do use the computer for playing video you will probably want to find why you're not seeing flashing below 25. Most likely either the TV might be expecting a video input, rather than a computer input, or else the computer drivers are cutting off the dark gray information. On the computer side if you're using the MP4 video you can do things like making a screen capture and then getting the on-screen video levels with a paint program, or using something like Color Cop (Blu-ray is protected against these options). On the TV side you may have options regarding the input range (I'm not familiar with your TV), or else you could see what happens when using a different video player with the TV. Anyway my main point is that there's a few places the problem could come from, and generally troubleshooting a computer output it more difficult than a standalone Blu-ray player.
post #3046 of 3881
I'm having a little issues trying to get my display calibrated right now it seems like peoples skin tones are way too orange right now.

And I need to get a blue screen filter for the other tests.
post #3047 of 3881
This issue came up in another thread but figured it would be better asked here to get more answers

I want to place the AVS disk on a thumb drive so my BR player will be able to access everything faster than a disk.
Exactly how do you do this?
Thumb drive is currently fat32 so the ISO won't fit on it.. if that is all that is required..
Could someone please post the step by stop on now to install this on a thumb drive so it may work when plugged into a BR player?
Thanks!
post #3048 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

This issue came up in another thread but figured it would be better asked here to get more answers

I want to place the AVS disk on a thumb drive so my BR player will be able to access everything faster than a disk.
Exactly how do you do this?
Thumb drive is currently fat32 so the ISO won't fit on it.. if that is all that is required..
Could someone please post the step by stop on now to install this on a thumb drive so it may work when plugged into a BR player?
Thanks!

You'll probably want the AVCHD version. Just copy the whole directory structure onto your thumb drive. But note that not all players support AVCHD.

-Bill
post #3049 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

You'll probably want the AVCHD version. Just copy the whole directory structure onto your thumb drive. But note that not all players support AVCHD.

-Bill

So how does one do that? The AVCHD is a exe file that when executed extracts a 4+ Gig ios file.
And when mounted with Daemon tools, windows xp can not read it..
post #3050 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

So how does one do that? The AVCHD is a exe file that when executed extracts a 4+ Gig ios file.
And when mounted with Daemon tools, windows xp can not read it..

You need software capable of playing back blu rays, for starters.
post #3051 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

So how does one do that? The AVCHD is a exe file that when executed extracts a 4+ Gig ios file.
And when mounted with Daemon tools, windows xp can not read it..

Try burning it to a DVD (as a disc image, not a data file) and see if Windows will mount that. If so, you can copy the entire BDMV folder to a usb device. Put this in a folder named AVCHD on the stick.

If XP won't mount that disc, either find a later version of Windows (I know Vista will do it) or try other ISO mounting tools; sorry I don't know what they are. Doesn't DVDFab have something for this?

Recent Linux versions will mount this ISO file loopback; I'm not sure of the situation on Mac.

I started with the .7z version but it also produces an ISO file so I suspect is the same as the .exe version in terms of the mechanics of getting it copied.

-Bill
post #3052 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Try burning it to a DVD (as a disc image, not a data file) and see if Windows will mount that. If so, you can copy the entire BDMV folder to a usb device. Put this in a folder named AVCHD on the stick.

If XP won't mount that disc, either find a later version of Windows (I know Vista will do it) or try other ISO mounting tools; sorry I don't know what they are. Doesn't DVDFab have something for this?

Recent Linux versions will mount this ISO file loopback; I'm not sure of the situation on Mac.

I started with the .7z version but it also produces an ISO file so I suspect is the same as the .exe version in terms of the mechanics of getting it copied.

-Bill

Thanks Bill. Daemon mounts the ISO but no way to look at what is mounted..
I will try burning it as you suggested and see what happens.
post #3053 of 3881
For WinXP you may need to install a UDF 2.5 reader to be able to browse Bluray and other types of disks.
post #3054 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by kemac View Post

For WinXP you may need to install a UDF 2.5 reader to be able to browse Bluray and other types of disks.

ding ding ding ding ding! Thanks Kemac that was the last tidbit I needed .. still don't know if the BR player will read it but will update shortly.

BRP can not read this type of file.. as sort of expected. I did find the users guild and verified.
So choice is Divix MKV and MP4... Will investigate the MP4 option but I thought I read someplace that MP4 would be output as RBG...

How I got this to work with xp for anyone else interested.
Software used
Daemon tools lite (makes virtual drive and lets you mount iso images on them)
UDF 2.5

Download the exe file
extract it to the hard drive (will make a 4+ gig ISO file when extracted)
mount the IOS with Daemon
Brows to the drive and copy directory on the IOS to the USB (UDF 2.5 lets you see what is there in windows XP)

Of course it makes more sense to check the BRP Users guide before wasting your time as I did!
post #3055 of 3881
I am at a loss here. I intend to calibrate using an xbox 360 so I have downloaded the mp4 (.exe). This gets me an mp4-2c.exe file that is21.7 mb. I extract that and I get a file folder labeled mp4-2c that is 1.59 gb. I am not seeing an .iso file at all.

What am I missing?
post #3056 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamst149 View Post

I am at a loss here. I intend to calibrate using an xbox 360 so I have downloaded the mp4 (.exe). This gets me an mp4-2c.exe file that is21.7 mb. I extract that and I get a file folder labeled mp4-2c that is 1.59 gb. I am not seeing an .iso file at all.

What am I missing?

Nothing, that file does not have ISO files.. I copied that file structure to the USB drive and my BR could read and open the files. no menu but most of the patterns are there.

Not sure how it would work on an xbox.. maybe make a data dvd?
post #3057 of 3881
Thanks. I was so stuck looking for that iso I couldn't figure it out. Im good now. Thanks
post #3058 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Nothing, that file does not have ISO files.. I copied that file structure to the USB drive and my BR could read and open the files. no menu but most of the patterns are there.

Not sure how it would work on an xbox.. maybe make a data dvd?

I used it with my xbox by streaming it over the network. You can also put it on a usb drive.
post #3059 of 3881
Where can I get the blue filter glasses from? Thx wants like $14 for them.. Well they are like $1.99 but the shipping is crazy for something like that...
post #3060 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruB4 View Post

Where can I get the blue filter glasses from? Thx wants like $14 for them.. Well they are like $1.99 but the shipping is crazy for something like that...

It's been a long time since I bought mine, but the quoted shipping price was wrong; it was more like $2.50 at checkout. Try initiating a purchase and see what the real value is once you are ready to buy.

-Bill
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