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AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 114

post #3391 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkalsaria View Post

Did you use any meter to do calibration or just AVSHD disc?

Used a the disc with a X-Rite i1 Display Pro and DVDO on 1 set and AVSHD disc with a X-Rite i1 Display Pro. Ideally I would like to have these patterns in the DVDO DUO.
post #3392 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Obviously not.
It could be that you have your contrast a bit too high.
The display basically has a native gamma curve and you are moving the points around on it so that 90% outputs .9^2.2 of 100% output. so you're sliding the 100% around on the curve and then the 90% point needs to follow it in output, the input corrections may change.
Another thing to note is that gamma isn't really the best measurement of how far you're off for 90 or 95%, very small changes can make big swings in gamma values at those levels.

using % luminance error is more helpful
post #3393 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Obviously not.
It could be that you have your contrast a bit too high.
The display basically has a native gamma curve and you are moving the points around on it so that 90% outputs .9^2.2 of 100% output. so you're sliding the 100% around on the curve and then the 90% point needs to follow it in output, the input corrections may change.
Another thing to note is that gamma isn't really the best measurement of how far you're off for 90 or 95%, very small changes can make big swings in gamma values at those levels.

The 709 DVD calibration had my Contrast at 83 as ideal - re-checking with the meter - 85 knocked the 90IRE down to the proper Gamma level - thanks for the tip!

Dang! Got the 90IRE down, but as soon as I finished the Greyscale - 90IRE was back up peaking again!
Second thing I noticed this time (I like to swing back and forth between Calman 4 and Chromapure as comparison - but calibrate with ChromaPure), was that changing the Contrast had a more dramatic affect in the ChromaPure program, than the Calman 4 where it barely nudged. (Again, talking about 90IRE)
Edited by p5browne - 8/12/12 at 7:25am
post #3394 of 3881
When attempting to use this disc to calibrate my panasoinc 50g20 no matter how high i turn my brightness i cant get the reference black levels to blink all were solid deep dark black. As much as Id love to believe I have the world's deepest and best black levels i dont believe this to be true haha
post #3395 of 3881
You mean the levels below or above reference black? Some devices can't display blacker than black. Or it's possible your device / TV aren't using the same range and you're clipping black detail.
post #3396 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaomizzle View Post

When attempting to use this disc to calibrate my panasoinc 50g20 no matter how high i turn my brightness i cant get the reference black levels to blink all were solid deep dark black. As much as Id love to believe I have the world's deepest and best black levels i dont believe this to be true haha

Double check your "advanced picture" settings and look for the "black level" setting. It should be on "light".

Let us know if this works.
post #3397 of 3881
Yeah I moved it to light and 1-25 were just black as black could be....and I've always used my black level at light. I do have my HDMI range set to auto 16-255 BC if I go nonstandard 0-255 even with black set to dark and brightness at 0 my blacks are grey. For cable its run thru a Logitech revue and my rx-z7. was testing on ps3 run thru z7

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2
post #3398 of 3881
I'm assuming you checked your RX-Z7's HDMI settings? My Denon has an HDMI RGB range setting as well, although I've never tested it on Y/Cr/Cb sources. ... Also the PS3 settings might need a check ...
post #3399 of 3881
tried but i searched extensively through the massive amount of options on it and cant find anything...i cant believe that it wouldnt be capable
post #3400 of 3881
Does anyone know if this disk works with sidewinder 3 or iconbit (both 3D mediaplayers)

I am close to buy one and i have a slight preferring to iconbit

I need the BR menu to navigate during a calibration session.

Thanks
post #3401 of 3881
I want to mention that the pop-up menus do work with the AVCHD version on my PS3. I had mentioned several years back that they did not but the issue was I was pressing the pop-up button on the PS3 Bluetooth remote instead of the square button. The latter works perfectly but the former does not. So, it may be time to update the first post to remove the "Popup menus may not work with the AVCHD" next to the PS3.
post #3402 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainSKA View Post

This may have been asked, but it's a huge post to look through...
Anyway, is it possible to get full rez (1920x1080) TGA files of the test patterns? I suppose I could do screen captures from the videos, but I just figured it would be nice to have the raws of these. I actually have a playback source that plays TGAs and this would be a great thing to store on there to set up displays.
It decompresses to around 2 GB. Anyone can download here for their own personal use, but please do not redistribute the contents without prior permission. tga.zip 1321k .zip file
Edited by alluringreality - 8/13/12 at 7:49pm
post #3403 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killerbeenl View Post

Does anyone know if this disk works with sidewinder 3 or iconbit (both 3D mediaplayers)

I am close to buy one and i have a slight preferring to iconbit

I need the BR menu to navigate during a calibration session.

Thanks

Yesterday i bought the Iconbit.

To anwser my own question i tryed the patched 1.3 version and the menu works on Iconbit XDS73D.

Great disk btw wink.gif
post #3404 of 3881
Question:

1) For a display hooked up to an Xbox 360 (outputting YCbCr 709), should you calibrate your whites to 235, 244, or 255? In other words, while the xbox itself can certainly output whiter than white, do any xbox 360 actually games output anything above 235?

If they don't pass information above 235, wouldn't it make sense to calibrate whites to 235, instead of instead of allowing the extra headroom up to 244 or 255 that won't get used?
Edited by chicolom - 9/7/12 at 12:06am
post #3405 of 3881
It all depends on who you talk to.. A good compromise is alow a little WTW to but not all. Pay attention to clipping of color, as the higher you crank the contrast to clip WTW the more risk you run of clipping color. So if you can get 240ish with no clipping of color and the light output is sufficient see how that works.
post #3406 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post

Question:
1) For a display hooked up to an Xbox 360 (outputting YCbCr 709), should you calibrate your whites to 235, 244, or 255? In other words, while the xbox itself can certainly output whiter than white, do any xbox 360 actually games output anything above 235?

If all you play is games, then no, there will never be content above 235, but in that case you mine as well us full range RGB. If you use your xbox video for (netflix, hulu, ect....), or the display for anything else than preserving as much of the headroom as possible is recommended.
post #3407 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

If all you play is games, then no, there will never be content above 235, but in that case you mine as well us full range RGB. If you use your xbox video for (netflix, hulu, ect....), or the display for anything else than preserving as much of the headroom as possible is recommended.

I read somewhere that console games are actually mastered at 16-235 RGB (as opposed to PC games at 0-256) because the majority of consoles are paired with TVs anyways (vs monitors). If that's true, then full range RGB would be unnecessarily expanding them. I can never seem to find a straight answer on which color range consoles games are natively designed at.

Anyways, my display has a dynamic backlight feature (lowers backlight on very dark scenes). I like this feature, but I've noticed it almost never engages when fed a 16-235 RGB limited signal. So if I want to keep the dynamic backlight feature, and I do, I need to use either YCbCr or Rull range RGB.

When I feed my display a full RGB via xbox though, it seems to hard clip anything above 232 (greyscale and color). I can't see 233 or 234 flash no matter if I lower the contrast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Pay attention to clipping of color, as the higher you crank the contrast to clip WTW the more risk you run of clipping color. So if you can get 240ish with no clipping of color and the light output is sufficient see how that works.

Speaking of color clipping...

My greyscale had some obvious pink color cast, so I turned down R-drive and turned up G-drive. That fixed the color cast, greyscale now looks fairly grey in the upper values.

BUT, now green clips first ahead of the rest of the colors.


To fix this, I guess I should I lower the contrast/white point some to save some of the greens right?:

1) Should I do this over YCbCr, and gain WTW and color values over 235 (probably unnecessary for gaming though).

2) Or, do this over RGB full where it will still be hard-clipping everything above 232. In this case, lowering the contrast will just force the overall brightness down. I think.


Which one of these options would be best, or do they have the same effect? Would it actually be bad to gain above 235 information for gaming - like it will stretch out and screw up the gamma range or something?
post #3408 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post

I read somewhere that console games are actually mastered at 16-235 RGB (as opposed to PC games at 0-256) because the majority of consoles are paired with TVs anyways (vs monitors). If that's true, then full range RGB would be unnecessarily expanding them. I can never seem to find a straight answer on which color range consoles games are natively designed at.

The xbox runs full range internally, it's compressed at output by default. I believe the PS3 is the same way, except that a developer can override the settings on the PS3 if they want, I might be miss-remembering that part though. This all stems from the way 3D gets rendered from 0-1 internally by GPUs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post

Anyways, my display has a dynamic backlight feature (lowers backlight on very dark scenes). I like this feature, but I've noticed it almost never engages when fed a 16-235 RGB limited signal. So if I want to keep the dynamic backlight feature, and I do, I need to use either YCbCr or Rull range RGB.
Typically it's not advised to use dynamic backlight, frequently you'll want different brightness settings at least and if you've got a truly calibrated display things like white point and gamma shift around enough that using a day cal and a night cal ends up being better.

But if you're set doesn't have day/night settings and you aren't doing advanced calibration dynamic backlight isn't the worst thing either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post

When I feed my display a full RGB via xbox though, it seems to hard clip anything above 232 (greyscale and color). I can't see 233 or 234 flash no matter if I lower the contrast.

That's totally normal, the video signal you're feeding is getting clipped and expanded to 0-255, so the xbox is effectivlye remapping the video file's level 16->0 and 235->255. So 232 is probably more like 251, and being able to detect the subtle shift between 251 and 254 is pretty hard even on a great display.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post

Speaking of color clipping...
My greyscale had some obvious pink color cast, so I turned down R-drive and turned up G-drive. That fixed the color cast, greyscale now looks fairly grey in the upper values.
BUT, now green clips first ahead of the rest of the colors.
To fix this, I guess I should I lower the contrast/white point some to save some of the greens right?:
1) Should I do this over YCbCr, and gain WTW and color values over 235 (probably unnecessary for gaming though).
2) Or, do this over RGB full where it will still be hard-clipping everything above 232. In this case, lowering the contrast will just force the overall brightness down. I think.
Which one of these options would be best, or do they have the same effect? Would it actually be bad to gain above 235 information for gaming - like it will stretch out and screw up the gamma range or something?

This is where you are getting into advanced calibration. You really can't do this right without a meter. Changing your RGB drives without one is far more likely to do harm than good.

The pink Tinge is NOT from having too much red. It's from having too much blue in white. When you have too little red, it "runs out" or starts to clip before you get to 100%, so since you're already putting out maximum red at say 95%, by the time you get to 100% the white is much too blue. Then what happens is your brain sees the brightest color on the screen and say okay that color is white and every shade is now processed by your brain in relation to that color. So those neutral gray swatches from 90% on down now look pink compared to the overly blue white.

Like I said this part pretty much needs a meter.
post #3409 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The xbox runs full range internally, it's compressed at output by default. I believe the PS3 is the same way, except that a developer can override the settings on the PS3 if they want, I might be miss-remembering that part though. This all stems from the way 3D gets rendered from 0-1 internally by GPUs.

Ahh, OK. Makes sense.

Typically it's not advised to use dynamic backlight, frequently you'll want different brightness settings at least and if you've got a truly calibrated display things like white point and gamma shift around enough that using a day cal and a night cal ends up being better.
But if you're set doesn't have day/night settings and you aren't doing advanced calibration dynamic backlight isn't the worst thing either.

Yeah, I know the harm it does - it's trying to artificially deepen blacks, but the whole gamma range drops with it. For films and other more "reference" material I can certainly see the merit in disengaging it. For certain games though, it can be a fun effect, for example when you turn off a flashlight in a dark room. In those types of situations there usually isn't a whole lot of damage it can do to the gamma and white point anyways. Luckily, this set also has very nice shadow detail, so when it does drop the backlight, you can still make out the lower levels without it crushing them.

My new set clearly has higher threshold for when it decides to engage compared to my previous set (needs more black on the screen), which is nice. I'd like it if sets allowed you to set this threshold yourself (maybe in the service menu, but I doubt it).



That's totally normal, the video signal you're feeding is getting clipped and expanded to 0-255, so the xbox is effectivlye remapping the video file's level 16->0 and 235->255. So 232 is probably more like 251, and being able to detect the subtle shift between 251 and 254 is pretty hard even on a great display.

I see. Also as far as lowering the contrast goes, which one of these sounds better to you?
Quote:
1) Should I do this over YCbCr, and gain WTW and color values over 235 (probably unnecessary for gaming though).

2) Or, do this over RGB full where it will still be hard-clipping everything above 232. In this case, lowering the contrast will just force the overall brightness down. I think.

Which one of these options would be best, or do they have the same effect? Would it actually be bad to lower it on YCbCr and gain above 235 information (keeping in mind games shouldn't be going over 235) > like will it stretch out and screw up the gamma range or something? Or is just revealing levels that won't get used, but don't hurt it either?


This is where you are getting into advanced calibration. You really can't do this right without a meter. Changing your RGB drives without one is far more likely to do harm than good.

The pink Tinge is NOT from having too much red. It's from having too much blue in white. When you have too little red, it "runs out" or starts to clip before you get to 100%, so since you're already putting out maximum red at say 95%, by the time you get to 100% the white is much too blue. Then what happens is your brain sees the brightest color on the screen and say okay that color is white and every shade is now processed by your brain in relation to that color. So those neutral gray swatches from 90% on down now look pink compared to the overly blue white.
Like I said this part pretty much needs a meter.


Ahhh, interesting. This set definitely has a white balance on the cool side. The too much blue makes sense. Hmm, I guess there's not a whole lot I can do by eye. What's the typical fix for too much blue in white? Less B-gain? Seems like I tried playing with the RGB gain/drive and lowering the red gain and raising the green gain was the only thing that looked OK. I don't think lowering the blue drive helped, but I can check again. It looks pretty nasty pink at default...

I've thought about getting a meter before, but I don't know much about them. I thought those were mainly for PC calibration where it changes the color in the OS via a profile or something. Not sure it'd be worth it for a $549 set...


Thanks for all the help btw! This is good stuff. smile.gif
post #3410 of 3881
For color temp, getting in there and messing with the gain is as likely to make it worse as it is to make it better.

The two things to do are
1) switch to a warmer color temp setting.
2) drop the contrast, At some point you should stop clipping and the color shift should go away.

So I think you're biggest problem may be that you have contrast a bit too high.

Now that you know about how full range can clip your video test patterns you'll be better equipped to try and get contrast correct. Highest setting that doesn't cause the color shift.
post #3411 of 3881
Quote:
1) Should I do this over YCbCr, and gain WTW and color values over 235 (probably unnecessary for gaming though).

2) Or, do this over RGB full. In this case, lowering the contrast will just force the overall brightness down. I think.

Which one of these options would be best, or do they have the same effect?

Would it actually be bad to lower it on YCbCr and gain above 235 information (keeping in mind games shouldn't be going over 235) > like will it stretch out/screw up the gamma range or something? Or is just revealing levels that won't get used, but don't hurt it either?


What do you think regarding this quoted text ^ ? Should I be doing #1 or #2?


I will drop the contrast, and that does helps some, but really the entire greyscale is pinkish, not just the upper end. This is also regardless of white balance preset, even the warmest preset warm 2 looks pink (I'm using Warm 1) - all have a pinkish greyscale. Maybe it has something to do with the LED backlights.

I will try Warm 2 though (was using Warm 1).
post #3412 of 3881
There isn't a goto answer for YCC v RGB, different displays process color differently, so it's highly dependent on the TV.

As to Limited levels (Video Range) v Full levels (PC Range), If you have a plasma and you really need more light, by all means use Full range. Otherwise video range is fine, the games are typically signed off on in the default configuration, which means using Video Levels (At least at the good studios) and it's the right choice for video content.
post #3413 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

There isn't a goto answer for YCC v RGB, different displays process color differently, so it's highly dependent on the TV.
As to Limited levels (Video Range) v Full levels (PC Range), If you have a plasma and you really need more light, by all means use Full range. Otherwise video range is fine, the games are typically signed off on in the default configuration, which means using Video Levels (At least at the good studios) and it's the right choice for video content.

Sotti, I am sure you can help shed some light on the following:

Need some clarity or at least some general guidance, as I have not been able to figure out how to make sense of this:

Need some clarity or at least some general guidance, as I have not been able to figure out how to make sense of this:

Two separate inputs that allow different Rec.’s and discrete scan rate memories for each input. I decided I want to use a DVD player and a Blu-ray player (two separate).

DVD Player: calibrate output/display to Rec. 601, and 480i & 480p. RGB or YCbCr?

Blu-ray Player: calibrate output/display to Rec. 709, and 1080i/p 24, 30, 60, 720p (checking 1080i30)? RGB or YCbCr?

Does the RGB v YCbCr decision boil down to processing? As in, if a display handles RGB, then use it (as long as there is not going to be a source sending it YCbCr, at which point I would need to verify that it is handling it properly). If it indicates problems – via multibursts, etc., then try YCbCr?

So, if had a display device, either a projector or panel, that calibrated fine at the resolutions sent to it in RGB, then there would be no need to calibrate also to YCbCr? Meaning, a device may discretely store settings for YCbCr separately from RGB. I would guess most anything sophisticated enough to have discrete memories would handle the conversion correctly, so it really shouldn’t matter whether it is RGB or YCbCr, but RGB is preferable. Is this correct logic or what you have experienced?

Lastly, in an article I read related to setting up the the DVDO, indicated, “For our BD player, we want the full dynamic range of "Computer”.” I assume this is 0-255, but 16 black.” This keeps the processing at a minimum or no remapping? This makes some sense if there is a fixed signal source, but I am not sure exactly what the advantage is. Is it just generally smoother, because there is no remapping/conversion? I realize this can get really sticky, I’m trying my best to keep breaking it down until it makes complete sense –then I am sure I will still forget something, but at least I will have good notes to keep reviewing.

I have a number of situations coming up where I will be adding in a dedicated DVD, but, really other than the Rec, I am still not clear on whether the output target should be YCC or RGB. One will be deployed with a DVDO, the other is a direct connect to a newer 1080p panel. So, If I am trying to close loop calibrate a specific input on a display to Rec 601, then YCC or RGB, or it depends -what are some of those "it depends"? Thanks, T.
post #3414 of 3881
The difference between rec.709 and rec.601 for YCC encoding is the matrix you use to go back and forth with RGB.

So RGB 16,235,16 is YCC Rec.709 173, 29,44
Same 16,235,16 in YCC for Rec.601 is 145, 36, 55

So that's the big difference, between the two is decoding YCC to RGB.

On the disc for both Blu-ray and DVD is YCC 4:2:0, but they get chroma upsampled to either 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 to get put on the HDMI wire.

If your TV handles the conversion from YCC to RGB correctly for both 601 and 709, you wouldn't likely need two separate calibrations unless you wanted to adjust for the slightly smaller rec.601 gamut.

HDMI uses 8bit, 10bit or 12 bit packets, so they are always sending bits 0-255 (0-1023 for 10bit, 0-4095 for 12bit), the only question is, where the content expect reference white and reference black to be. DVD and Blu-ray have reference black at 16 and reference white at 235 and peak white at 254 (DVD and Blu-ray are both 8bit with 0 and 255 codes reserved for timing). Neither YCC nor RGB have anything built into the encoding scheme to invalidate encoding content from 1-15 or 236-254, so you could use either format to encode content that had reference black at 1 and reference white at 254. You want all of your equipment to pass the full signal all the way through without modifying the packets.

Where the YCC gets converted to RGB is entirely dependent on your equipment, there is no right answer. In a perfect world, with perfect equipment either format would be equally valid and correct. Some equipment will misbehave with different formats, or possible cause posterization or banding with one or the other. The only way to find out is to test. Look at gradient ramps, measure saturation sweeps, see if they are consistent between the two, if one format looks better, or measures more accurately, then you have a clear choice. With correctly functioning equipment, it shouldn't matter.

For some reason it's down right now, but there is some great information about the what it all works on the disc here:
http://www.dvd-replica.com/DVD/

Hopefully it won't be down for long. Probably down due to this http://www.neowin.net/news/godaddycom-along-with-millions-of-other-sites-go-down
Edited by sotti - 9/10/12 at 1:45pm
post #3415 of 3881
GREAT! Thanks so much.... I really appreciate the information.

Regards,
tbaudoin
post #3416 of 3881
Hi everyone,

could you please help me to choose right file to setup the brightness, as recommended in this video? I.e. what is Pluge Test Pattern equivalent in AVS HD 709?

Thanks.
Edited by and7ey - 9/16/12 at 10:50am
post #3417 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by and7ey View Post

Hi everyone,
could you please help me to choose right file to setup the brightness, as recommended in this video? I.e. what is Pluge Test Pattern equivalent in AVS HD 709?
Thanks.

If you go to the first post in this thread, there is a pdf manual that explains each pattern on the disk and how to use it..
post #3418 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by and7ey View Post

Hi everyone,
could you please help me to choose right file to setup the brightness, as recommended in this video? I.e. what is Pluge Test Pattern equivalent in AVS HD 709?
Thanks.

Black Clipping
post #3419 of 3881
I'm having considerable trouble setting the white level using the disk.

I have a Sony BDP S360 and have the settings of the YCbCr/RGB (HDMI) on Auto and the pop up menu; Picture Quality
Mode; (Standard/Brighter Room/Theater Room) on Standard and using a Mitsi HC3800 pj on default settings in low lamp mode.

I can set the brightness easily enough (using the basic settings) but when the contrast test comes up I can see all but the highest bar flash. If I increase the level to where only the 240 bar is barely flashing the setting is at 25 out of 30 on the pj and WAY to bright even to the point that the pj shuts down after an hour or so.

I have set it by eye to what I consider a reasonable level; Contrast=+10, Bright=0, but I would like to do it correctly. I've read and reread the manual, watched videos and still I'm stumped as to why I can't set this up using the disk.
post #3420 of 3881
Couple things you have to consider when setting contrast, No discoloration, No color clipping and no Eye Fatigue. So set your contrasts so you have 240 flashing, then check the color clipping pattern to make you can see 240 flashing on all 3 colors, if not turn it down till all colors flash at 240. Next check a gray scale ramp and make sure none of the bars are showing any signs of color, if so turn it down till they are all gray. If good then this is a proper contrast setting. Unfortunately if it is still to bright, you can drop it a bit more, try a different mode like Theater if you are not using that to start, add an ND filter (sunglasses for the projector lens) or add bias lighting to reduce eye strain (what I have done.. also helps you find the remote!). Make sure you recheck brightness after adjusting contrast, it is ok to go native. One other thing to remember if your lamp has less the 500 hours on it, it will dim considerable as it gets more hours on it.
Hope that helps!
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