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AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 117

post #3481 of 3881
Is there a 5% sized window series of patterns for grayscale and colors?

If so, please point me to where.
post #3482 of 3881
Just a quick contribution to the supported player listing: My Sony BDP-S370 did not play the HDMV version from DVD (viz. DVDM), but works fine with the AVCHD version from DVD (Haven't tested HDMV from BD-R)
post #3483 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Is there a 5% sized window series of patterns for grayscale and colors?
If so, please point me to where.

Personally I think it's silly to search for an ideal sized window pattern for displays that vary light output, but gamma can have an observable affect on the image, so it's essentially a joke that there's no actual standardization that can be applied across various displays. The windows included here are approximately 18% area. I believe smaller windows are included at http://www.avsforum.com/t/1406352/gcd-gamut-calibration-disk If you have a meter that works with ColorHCFR the pattern generator can output most any size window to more quickly look at how window size can potentially affect various displays differently.
post #3484 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by p3Orion View Post

In the Official Panasonic ST50 thread someone downloaded the AVS HD 709 (mp4, I believe) to a flashdrive and played it through the TV. How is this different than playing it on a disc with a PS3, for example?

Different video players (TV player, Blu-ray player, PS3, etc.) can potentially affect the displayed image. Generally it's best to play the calibration video on whichever player that you will use for watching other video. If you are using the TV to play video files its potentially possible that the TV player may or may not exactly match the playback from the same video played on the PS3. It's possible that you may get the same output regardless if you use the TV player or the PS3, and it's also possible that you may not get the same output for all players. You will probably find that most video players (except computers) at their default settings will tend to output standard video levels, but it's best to check each video player that you want to use, because it's possible for the video player to affect how the video is displayed.
post #3485 of 3881
The xbox 360 uses a piecewise linear approximation of a gamma curve. Is it safe to assume that this is in effect during video playback, such as playing back an AVS HD 709 .mp4 file?
post #3486 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Different video players (TV player, Blu-ray player, PS3, etc.) can potentially affect the displayed image.

The .mp4 file is great. I calibrated my Smart TV's Youtube and Netflix settings by streaming the .mp4 version from my media server. Similarly, I used the PS3 streaming to calibrate the HDMI for when I use streaming content through it (less and less since the TV (LG LM7200) is slowly raking over that job nicely). But reading this comment it seems I'll have to move those settings to another bank and create a new set for the patterns playing off of the DVD drive in the PS3.
post #3487 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post

The xbox 360 uses a piecewise linear approximation of a gamma curve. Is it safe to assume that this is in effect during video playback, such as playing back an AVS HD 709 .mp4 file?

To directly answer your question, no I do not think the piecewise linear approximation (PWL) effect being discussed online has anything to do with video playback. The reason I say this is because I think I have measured how my Xbox plays the video patterns, and I never found significant differences in gamma measurements between my video players. The sorts of differences being discussed with PWL would be expected to clearly show up with measurements if the device was altering video playback.

You would have to ask someone else how exactly the Xbox actually functions regarding differences between games and video playback. On a cursory reading of what Google returns for PWL, I would guess they're primarily talking about something that's game related. From a video playback standpoint, gamma is more a property of the display and really doesn't figure into the sort of video decode expected from a video player. I mean that with video you have gamma correction at the video source (camera) and you expect the display to reproduce along a gamma curve, and where the video player comes into the process you generally don't expect gamma changes. I didn't spend much time reading about PWL and how the Xbox works, but it doesn't make me any less skeptical if video playback on the device happens to match with how games are rendered. The purpose of the video offered here is just calibration for video playback, and I cannot really comment on consoles rendering video games or trying to calibrate for video games.

If you care to read about the basics of how gamma applies to video playback, the following links give a better description of the general process:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_correction
http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/GammaFAQ.pdf
post #3488 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverSide View Post

reading this comment it seems I'll have to move those settings to another bank and create a new set for the patterns playing off of the DVD drive in the PS3.

I don't own a PS3, but I think the settings at http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration/3450#post_22706396 are the ones reported to output standard video levels. If you set your PS3 that way you may find the TV settings might match with other video players that also output standard video levels. Personally all my electronics can be set to use standard video levels, so I can have the same TV settings regardless of the video player I use. The reason for the suggestion to check each device, when possible, is because the PS3 and other video players often have settings that can cause them to output non-standard levels. If you have one video player outputting non-standard levels and another video player outputting standard video levels, you would probably need different TV settings for each device, but if you have two video players that both output standard video levels, then you could use the same TV settings for both players. It's simply a good idea to check each player, and it's possible you may be able to use the same TV settings for multiple video players.
post #3489 of 3881
Trying to download the Pattern Manual and my antivirus blocks it informing me the site is known to contain threats. eek.gif
Any idea what is going on?

post #3490 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by straca View Post

Trying to download the Pattern Manual and my antivirus blocks it informing me the site is known to contain threats. eek.gif
Any idea what is going on?

It's pretty much as it states. The site is known to contain threats.

Dropbox is no different than any of the other online file repositories. There can be good files shared on there and there can be bad files.

The AVS Disc is a good file, so there's no need to worry about it.

Just allow it to download... or continue to be paranoid... smile.gif
post #3491 of 3881
You can always use the mirror on my site.

http://www.w6rz.net/avshd709/Patterns-Manual.pdf

Ron
post #3492 of 3881
I have a Panasonic ST50 that I want to use this disc for. I don't have complete light control in my room so during the day light filters through my blinds and at night my room is, well, dark. Would it be fine to use the disc at some point in the day when there is far less light, but not dark instead of doing two calibrations, one in the day and one at night? I'm not using calibration software or devices.
post #3493 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

You can always use the mirror on my site.
http://www.w6rz.net/avshd709/Patterns-Manual.pdf
Ron

Got it. THANK YOU.smile.gif
post #3494 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

If you have two video players that both output standard video levels, then you could use the same TV settings for both players. It's simply a good idea to check each player, and it's possible you may be able to use the same TV settings for multiple video players.

Cool.. I've my PS3 set to the other than RGB output so my settings ought to be good for DVD play as well..
post #3495 of 3881
Hi all,
This is my first step into the world of TV calibration and I'm already having trouble running the black level test!
I'm streaming the mp4 from my Mac to my PS3. Even when I turn my TV (Panasonic a 50UT50) up to to max brightness, I can't see any black bars below Bar number 19... Am I doing something wrong?
Any help you can provide would be really great.

Thanks.
post #3496 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakesh Singh View Post

Hi all,
This is my first step into the world of TV calibration and I'm already having trouble running the black level test!
I'm streaming the mp4 from my Mac to my PS3. Even when I turn my TV (Panasonic a 50UT50) up to to max brightness, I can't see any black bars below Bar number 19... Am I doing something wrong?
Any help you can provide would be really great.
Thanks.
1. Make sure the PS3 is outputting YCbCr instead of RGB.
2. Make sure you're using a picture mode like Cinema and not Standard.
3. Make sure any sort of dynamic contrast or picture altering settings are OFF.

That's all I've got!
post #3497 of 3881
I have a question about the "brightness" pattern:

When I set my display brightness control to 59...bar 17 is the lowest that flashes white.
When I set my display brightness control to 58...bar 17 flashes, but red and it is extremely faint and hard to see. I mean I have to be a few inches away in a pitch black room and I can see the faintest of red...what looks like...dithering basically.
When I set my display brightness control to 57...bar 18 is the lowest that flashes.

Obviously, 57 is not the correct setting. I feel fairly certain that 59 is the correct setting, but that is what I want to double check. That extremely faint red (what looks almost like dithering) that I see at 58 is something I should ignore when adjusting brightness, correct?
post #3498 of 3881
HD--Master,

Did you change any of the grayscale settings, AGC, black extention? That'll influence whether or not 57 is the correct black level setting.

...and it shouldn't be red. If you add green and blue to 10% level, that'll fix the red and possibly make 57 a correct black level setting.
post #3499 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

HD--Master,

Did you change any of the grayscale settings, AGC, black extention? That'll influence whether or not 57 is the correct black level setting.

This was a post calibration check. Black extension is 0 and AGC is 0.

56 is the correct setting in Custom with the Gamma adjustment set to 2.4 (measures lower than 2.4) on my 65" GT50, but I just did a calibration with the Gamma adjustment set to 2.6 (measures lower than 2.6) and the correct brightness setting there appears to be 59.
post #3500 of 3881
I will try adding green and blue at 10%, but it may just throw something off elsewhere. You literally have to be 3-5 inches from the screen to see the red I am describing.
post #3501 of 3881
I think the red pixels activate first and I don't think it's an RGB balance issue. This is what I see on my 60ST50 with the gamma at 2.6 in a completely dark room:
56/57: 16/black is solid black, 17 is only visible with my face inches from the screen and only the red pixels are active.
59: red, green and blue activate at 17, but I can noticeably see the red pixels activate at 16 from my normal viewing distance.
58: only the red pixel is active at 17, but it is noticeable from my normal viewing distance. I can see red at 16, but only with my face inches from the screen.
So IMO, 58 is the best setting (again, with the gamma at 2.6... things change when you lower the gamma).
Edited by rahzel - 1/15/13 at 11:12pm
post #3502 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

I think the red pixels activate first. On my 60ST50, I have my gamma at 2.6. I can very faintly see the red pixels turn on at 17 with the brightness at 57; then they get a bit brighter at 58; then at 59, blue and green turn on. However at 59, I can faintly see 16 flashing red, so I set my brightness to 58. Even at 58 I can very faintly see red, but I find that to be the best setting IMO.

Thank you!

Update: I just took another look and I am seeing exactly what you are describing. I think I will settle on 58 as well.
post #3503 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by HD-Master View Post

I have a question about the "brightness" pattern:

When I set my display brightness control to 59...bar 17 is the lowest that flashes white.
When I set my display brightness control to 58...bar 17 flashes, but red and it is extremely faint and hard to see. I mean I have to be a few inches away in a pitch black room and I can see the faintest of red...what looks like...dithering basically.
When I set my display brightness control to 57...bar 18 is the lowest that flashes.

Obviously, 57 is not the correct setting. I feel fairly certain that 59 is the correct setting, but that is what I want to double check. That extremely faint red (what looks almost like dithering) that I see at 58 is something I should ignore when adjusting brightness, correct?

No, Ideally you don't want any color other than gray flashing.

Try and use Warm 1 and see what happens for your controlled light calibration. Also try and use gamma target of 2.21
I set my brightness at 55 and see bar 17 very dim but its there. However are VT50's are probably a little different as are are settings so there is no one brightness setting that is 100% right.
I don't normally use the AVS disc because I do only LUT cube calibrations, but last night I was playing around with meter distance, window size and using 96Hz so I used my copy of AVSHD.

ss
post #3504 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by HD-Master View Post

I have a question about the "brightness" pattern:

When I set my display brightness control to 59...bar 17 is the lowest that flashes white.
When I set my display brightness control to 58...bar 17 flashes, but red and it is extremely faint and hard to see. I mean I have to be a few inches away in a pitch black room and I can see the faintest of red...what looks like...dithering basically.
When I set my display brightness control to 57...bar 18 is the lowest that flashes.

Obviously, 57 is not the correct setting. I feel fairly certain that 59 is the correct setting, but that is what I want to double check. That extremely faint red (what looks almost like dithering) that I see at 58 is something I should ignore when adjusting brightness, correct?

No, Ideally you don't want any color other than gray flashing.

Try and use Warm 1 and see what happens for your controlled light calibration. Also try and use gamma target of 2.21
I set my brightness at 55 and see bar 17 very dim but its there. However are VT50's are probably a little different as are are settings so there is no one brightness setting that is 100% right.
I don't normally use the AVS disc because I do only LUT cube calibrations, but last night I was playing around with meter distance, window size and using 96Hz so I used my copy of AVSHD.

ss

Warm 1 measures at the wrong temp, while warm 2 is D65 for me. 2.21 is fine with lighting of some sort or degree in the room, but I find that 2.3-2.35 works better in my very dark room at night.

I don't use the AVS disk due to the window sizes. I use the 10% windows on the GCD disk. It's the same brightness pattern though.
post #3505 of 3881
Same... 2.2 is too washed out for my liking in a dark room. I prefer 2.3-2.35 as well.

The correct brightness setting seems to be about the same up and down Panasonic's 2012 lineup, but it varies based on the gamma slider and panel size. The lower the gamma, the lower the brightness setting needs to be. The 60"+ panels also have a higher gamma at the same point on the gamma slider.
post #3506 of 3881
That's all fine if you guys want to be in a dark room with no lights on. Then yes I would raise my Gamma target also, as I do for my 3D (stereo) calibrations. But in my case I use bias lighting to cut down on eye fatigue. However a Gamma target of 2.21 is not necessarily all washed out depending on how the calibration is done. Matter of fact one of the nice pluses with the VT50 is how it handles the detail in dark images. So if you have to raise your brightness then you are probably loosing some of that detail.

Also I only view HQ Blu Ray disc on my VT50, so yes I can understand why you may want to use a higher gamma target for TV broadcasting. And for that kind of use you probably will not need as well balanced settings, to limit your give and take of your VT50.

Anyway its because of the above that I went to the LUT cube type of calibration, this type of calibration simply takes my VT50 to the next level..

The only reason why I don't use the AVSHD disc for window patterns (I used the AVSHD disc for the calibrations in my sig) is because I use my Radiance Mini 3D for window patterns and I don't think that the AVSHD disc would work for a LUT cube calibration.

ss
post #3507 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

That's all fine if you guys want to be in a dark room with no lights on. Then yes I would raise my Gamma target also, as I do for my 3D (stereo) calibrations. But in my case I use bias lighting to cut down on eye fatigue. However a Gamma target of 2.21 is not necessarily all washed out depending on how the calibration is done. Matter of fact one of the nice pluses with the VT50 is how it handles the detail in dark images. So if you have to raise your brightness then you are probably loosing some of that detail.

Also I only view HQ Blu Ray disc on my VT50, so yes I can understand why you may want to use a higher gamma target for TV broadcasting. And for that kind of use you probably will not need as well balanced settings, to limit your give and take of your VT50.

Anyway its because of the above that I went to the LUT cube type of calibration, this type of calibration simply takes my VT50 to the next level..

The only reason why I don't use the AVSHD disc for window patterns (I used the AVSHD disc for the calibrations in my sig) is because I use my Radiance Mini 3D for window patterns and I don't think that the AVSHD disc would work for a LUT cube calibration.

ss

The AVS windows are too large. Your gamma is no better than my gamma.
post #3508 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by HD-Master View Post

The AVS windows are too large. Your gamma is no better than my gamma.

I hope you are just making a joke.
If not please explain your post, and also post all the raw numbers that go along with your calibration and settings.

ss
post #3509 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Anyway its because of the above that I went to the LUT cube type of calibration, this type of calibration simply takes my VT50 to the next level..

The only reason why I don't use the AVSHD disc for window patterns (I used the AVSHD disc for the calibrations in my sig) is because I use my Radiance Mini 3D for window patterns and I don't think that the AVSHD disc would work for a LUT cube calibration.

ss

Are LUT's that good?
Also what window size do you use for you calibrations using the Radiance?

Be interested to know..........

Thanks
post #3510 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by HD-Master View Post

The AVS windows are too large. Your gamma is no better than my gamma.

I hope you are just making a joke.
If not please explain your post, and also post all the raw numbers that go along with your calibration and settings.

ss

Joking about what? Many professionals have posted right here on this forum that 2.21,2.22 is not the de facto standard for gamma. It is dependent upon multiple factors including, but not limited to, lighting and personal preference. If fact, some very well respected pros prefer 2.3-2.35. I have both day and night calibrations that each use different gamma settings based on the different conditions. That is not at all uncommon.
Edited by HD-Master - 1/16/13 at 5:17am
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