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AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 125

post #3721 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

You could calibrate different presets for different inputs.
+1
My Sony S770 output is not adjustable - the Panasonic 310 is. I have to use the my receiver to calibrate the Sony.
post #3722 of 3881
yes. If it is off less than 5% or so, I would call that pretty darn good. thanksmsAq
post #3723 of 3881
I've used this HDTV Test Pattern to set brightness/contrast::
[COLOR=blue]http://arachnoid.com/HDTVTestPattern/[/COLOR]
But, it differs from the brightness/contrast pattern in the AVS HD 709 video, ie: if I adjust for one it's not right per the other.

I like black but I also like shadow detail. I've always wondered, if in movies, is every ounce of shadow detail/texture meant to be seen?
I realize there is a perceived increase in depth/pop if I sacrifice some shadow detail for blacker blacks.

If you have to compromise between black-level and shadow detail, which direction is more correct?


Example: interior of warehouse in Avengers
http://www.ramascreen.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Avengers-Scarlett-Johansson1.jpg
This one - is seeing the splinters on the far back wall what I should be aiming for? Based on the test patterns, it seems that there is a target black level, and though I can adjust brightness/contrast to see increments beyond the target (and more splinters), should I?


...if the black letter-box is grayer than the bezel, the TV/adjustment sucks?
post #3724 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post

I've used this HDTV Test Pattern to set brightness/contrast::
[COLOR=blue]http://arachnoid.com/HDTVTestPattern/[/COLOR]
But, it differs from the brightness/contrast pattern in the AVS HD 709 video, ie: if I adjust for one it's not right per the other.

I like black but I also like shadow detail. I've always wondered, if in movies, is every ounce of shadow detail/texture meant to be seen?
I realize there is a perceived increase in depth/pop if I sacrifice some shadow detail for blacker blacks.

If you have to compromise between black-level and shadow detail, which direction is more correct?


Example: interior of warehouse in Avengers
http://www.ramascreen.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Avengers-Scarlett-Johansson1.jpg
This one - is seeing the splinters on the far back wall what I should be aiming for? Based on the test patterns, it seems that there is a target black level, and though I can adjust brightness/contrast to see increments beyond the target (and more splinters), should I?


...if the black letter-box is grayer than the bezel, the TV/adjustment sucks?

The HDTV Test Pattern you are using is totally wrong.

All the text above the level bars are incorrect by -1 RGB Value.

It has reference Black as 16 bar but the value of the bar below is 15.15.15........ 20 is 19.19.19... all are wrong by -1 RGB Value.

It reports as reference white the 236.. lol (reference white for video is 235).

Also this pattern is useless for video level calibration.... all it's levels are for full-range video (0-255)

Blu-Ray Movies are encoded using 16-235 Reference Video Levels.

Avoid this pattern and use AVSHD Disk Patterns to set your Brightness - Contrast levels.
Edited by ConnecTEDDD - 8/7/13 at 2:43pm
post #3725 of 3881
I'm listening... the "don't use" test pattern then would cause me to adjust the picture too bright and the contrast too low - giving a washed out look?

I get used to a TV looking a certain way... I think washed-out. I try to boost pop but find myself tweaking the picture over time and returning to washed-out.

That's part of my question as to whether it's desirable to see all the splinters. Since I don't have the best TV, I will have a compromise...

I will fight the urge to wash-out if that's the recommendation I receive here - and try to change my paradigm.

Thanks for your response- with measurements !

----

The AVSHD test pattern where both bright and dark are blinking ( the pattern not shown here: http://www.missingremote.com/guide/display-calibration-part-i ), I assume due to interaction between light and dark on my TV, would not equal the same brightness
as adjusted to the first (Black-Level) pattern. Also, the White-Level pattern - I can easily see all gradients blinking to 252... but just because I can, should I? ...240?

PS: I'm surprised there's no mention of gamma.
On my PC, I have used this http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gamma_calibration.php (RGB 2.2).
On the TV, gamma 2.4 setting makes the blending closer to 2.2 with the image link above (25%). Wouldn't correct gamma be a prerequisite before adjusting anything else?
Still, I returned the TV to its default of gamma 2.2 (less blackness/color pop). Note about the gamma calibration image - set monitor to its native resolution / no image resize /
can't change the image to jpg - skews contrast.
post #3726 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post

I'm listening... the "don't use" test pattern then would cause me to adjust the picture too bright and the contrast too low - giving a washed out look?

I get used to a TV looking a certain way... I think washed-out. I try to boost pop but find myself tweaking the picture over time and returning to washed-out.

That's part of my question as to whether it's desirable to see all the splinters. Since I don't have the best TV, I will have a compromise...

What TV Model and Blu-Ray Player you are using?
post #3727 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

What TV Model and Blu-Ray Player you are using?

TV is LG 42LD450-UA (LCD CCFL backlit) using this 10-point setting(s):
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1257131/official-lg-xxld450-thread/1530#post_22762066
I have the MVA panel... the link above does not specify MVA or the "preferred" IPS panel.
Black- Level = Low, Color Gamut = BT-709. No other user-selectable processing is on.

Blu-Ray player is Panasonic DMP-BDT500
http://www.avforums.com/review/Panasonic-DMP-BDT500-3D-Blu-ray-Player-Review.html
Picture Mode = Normal, Black-Level = Lighter, YCbCr 4.4.4. No other processing is on, ie: chroma, fake sharpness.
I use the analog outs - nice!

Blu-Ray is connected to TV directly via HDMI, and HDMI carries audio signal = off

---

Adjusting brightness to the AVSHD Black-Clipping test pattern so that blinking does not encroach on #16 vs real world movie...
I can eek out more perceived shadow detail in movies by increasing TV brightness, but then #16 blinks and #15 slightly.
Should I let the finest of shadow detail be hidden into darkness to promote a less gray black?
I tend to tone down light reflections and bulbs that appear unrealistically hot - I currently see AVSHD White-Clipping segments blinking to 252.
post #3728 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

What TV Model and Blu-Ray Player you are using?

TV is LG 42LD450-UA (LCD CCFL backlit) using this 10-point setting(s):
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1257131/official-lg-xxld450-thread/1530#post_22762066
I have the MVA panel... the link above does not specify MVA or the "preferred" IPS panel.
Black- Level = Low, Color Gamut = BT-709. No other user-selectable processing is on.

Blu-Ray player is Panasonic DMP-BDT500
http://www.avforums.com/review/Panasonic-DMP-BDT500-3D-Blu-ray-Player-Review.html
Picture Mode = Normal, Black-Level = Lighter, YCbCr 4.4.4. No other processing is on, ie: chroma, fake sharpness.
I use the analog outs - nice!

Blu-Ray is connected to TV directly via HDMI, and HDMI carries audio signal = off

---

Adjusting brightness to the AVSHD Black-Clipping test pattern so that blinking does not encroach on #16 vs real world movie...
I can eek out more perceived shadow detail in movies by increasing TV brightness, but then #16 blinks and #15 slightly.
Should I let the finest of shadow detail be hidden into darkness to promote a less gray black?
I tend to tone down light reflections and bulbs that appear unrealistically hot - I currently see AVSHD White-Clipping segments blinking to 252.

Think that some movies/scenes have crashed blacks or no good shadow detail from a scene to another, or they have Black Washout with lifted blacks....

What gamma do you have at 5-10% Gray?

Generally there's no Data you want to see at 15-16 of 8-bit Video Levels.

Maybe these new patterns will help you: Advanced Brightness + Contrast Flashing Bars
post #3729 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post

TV is LG 42LD450-UA (LCD CCFL backlit) using this 10-point setting(s):
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1257131/official-lg-xxld450-thread/1530#post_22762066
I have the MVA panel... the link above does not specify MVA or the "preferred" IPS panel.
Black- Level = Low, Color Gamut = BT-709. No other user-selectable processing is on.

Blu-Ray player is Panasonic DMP-BDT500
http://www.avforums.com/review/Panasonic-DMP-BDT500-3D-Blu-ray-Player-Review.html
Picture Mode = Normal, Black-Level = Lighter, YCbCr 4.4.4. No other processing is on, ie: chroma, fake sharpness.
I use the analog outs - nice!

Blu-Ray is connected to TV directly via HDMI, and HDMI carries audio signal = off

---

Adjusting brightness to the AVSHD Black-Clipping test pattern so that blinking does not encroach on #16 vs real world movie...
I can eek out more perceived shadow detail in movies by increasing TV brightness, but then #16 blinks and #15 slightly.
Should I let the finest of shadow detail be hidden into darkness to promote a less gray black?
I tend to tone down light reflections and bulbs that appear unrealistically hot - I currently see AVSHD White-Clipping segments blinking to 252.

16 invisible , 17 barely visible. 15 and 16 visible brightness is too high.
post #3730 of 3881
Using the Logom gamma image http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gamma_calibration.php#gamma-test-2.png
With my TV set to gamma 2.2, the 10% scale blends between 2.0 and 2.1 (gray), closer to 2.0 (green).
With TV's gamma set to 2.4, the 10% blending occurs at 2.125 (gray)

Unlike my PC & its monitor with the Adobe Gamma GUI sliders, I only have three gamma options on the TV: 1.9, 2.2, 2.4
If I believed the Logom chart, I'd think setting my TV to 2.4 would be best. However, all places I've seen where "users" offer their
calibrations for my model TV, seems 2.2 (default) is the norm (or not specified).
With TV set to 2.4, I like the deeper blacks, and the color pops more.
But maybe the color red (exp) should not shft to more maroon. If I were seriously determined, I'd hook the TV up to the PC and
use some gamma sliders on it to see where my TV best gets to real 2.2 (if that's the target for TVs...)
Photo enthusiasts & web developers recommend the gamma for Windows OS is 2.2 and Mac, 1.8. But TV, I'm not sure.
BTW, the PC's video driver gamma, Adobe gamma, and the Logom gamma chart give nearly identicle readings...
I use the Adobe sliders with the Logom chart visible while I adjust - the Logom is larger making it easier to finesse.

[ On my PC panel (NEC IPS), I have to get the gamma right to enable seeing all Black-Level / White-Saturation increments
(at the same time) on those Logom calibration images. Brightness/contrast is a part but alone won't get my panel that range.]


---

Back in the day, I adjusted brightness to some movie's shadow detail. Ok, I have it set to see all detail...
any brighter I don't get more detail only grayer black. Ok it's perfect (for that movie).
Now I see the AVSHD video and notice my brightness is not set right -too bright; I make it so 16 is invisible (black).
Back to the movie... I no longer see the seam of the black suit lapel as did with #16 (maybe even 15) slightly blinking.
I wonder if there is a point where detail isn't meant to be seen to its fullest extent and I should set #16 to invisible
and let movie detail fall where it may.

BTW, thanks for the time
post #3731 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post

Using the Logom gamma image http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gamma_calibration.php#gamma-test-2.png
With my TV set to gamma 2.2, the 10% scale blends between 2.0 and 2.1 (gray), closer to 2.0 (green).
With TV's gamma set to 2.4, the 10% blending occurs at 2.125 (gray)

Unlike my PC & its monitor with the Adobe Gamma GUI sliders, I only have three gamma options on the TV: 1.9, 2.2, 2.4
If I believed the Logom chart, I'd think setting my TV to 2.4 would be best. However, all places I've seen where "users" offer their
calibrations for my model TV, seems 2.2 (default) is the norm (or not specified).
With TV set to 2.4, I like the deeper blacks, and the color pops more.
But maybe the color red (exp) should not shft to more maroon. If I were seriously determined, I'd hook the TV up to the PC and
use some gamma sliders on it to see where my TV best gets to real 2.2 (if that's the target for TVs...)
Photo enthusiasts & web developers recommend the gamma for Windows OS is 2.2 and Mac, 1.8. But TV, I'm not sure.
BTW, the PC's video driver gamma, Adobe gamma, and the Logom gamma chart give nearly identicle readings...
I use the Adobe sliders with the Logom chart visible while I adjust - the Logom is larger making it easier to finesse.

[ On my PC panel (NEC IPS), I have to get the gamma right to enable seeing all Black-Level / White-Saturation increments
(at the same time) on those Logom calibration images. Brightness/contrast is a part but alone won't get my panel that range.]


---

Back in the day, I adjusted brightness to some movie's shadow detail. Ok, I have it set to see all detail...
any brighter I don't get more detail only grayer black. Ok it's perfect (for that movie).
Now I see the AVSHD video and notice my brightness is not set right -too bright; I make it so 16 is invisible (black).
Back to the movie... I no longer see the seam of the black suit lapel as did with #16 (maybe even 15) slightly blinking.
I wonder if there is a point where detail isn't meant to be seen to its fullest extent and I should set #16 to invisible
and let movie detail fall where it may.

BTW, thanks for the time

Lagon Gamma Pattern is useless for your TV.

It's for sRGB ColorSpace Adjustment which is very different @ Low % Grayscale Levels vs. the REC.709, This Pattern is for Full Range Signal (0-255) also. (You need Video-Level Patterns)

To measure/know Gamma you need a Meter/Software.

Your LG has 10-Point RGB Balance Grayscale Controls @ ISF Mode to tweak the Gamma/RGB Balance with a Meter.
post #3732 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post

Using the Logom gamma image http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gamma_calibration.php#gamma-test-2.png
With my TV set to gamma 2.2, the 10% scale blends between 2.0 and 2.1 (gray), closer to 2.0 (green).
With TV's gamma set to 2.4, the 10% blending occurs at 2.125 (gray)

Unlike my PC & its monitor with the Adobe Gamma GUI sliders, I only have three gamma options on the TV: 1.9, 2.2, 2.4
If I believed the Logom chart, I'd think setting my TV to 2.4 would be best. However, all places I've seen where "users" offer their
calibrations for my model TV, seems 2.2 (default) is the norm (or not specified).
With TV set to 2.4, I like the deeper blacks, and the color pops more.
But maybe the color red (exp) should not shft to more maroon. If I were seriously determined, I'd hook the TV up to the PC and
use some gamma sliders on it to see where my TV best gets to real 2.2 (if that's the target for TVs...)
Photo enthusiasts & web developers recommend the gamma for Windows OS is 2.2 and Mac, 1.8. But TV, I'm not sure.
BTW, the PC's video driver gamma, Adobe gamma, and the Logom gamma chart give nearly identicle readings...
I use the Adobe sliders with the Logom chart visible while I adjust - the Logom is larger making it easier to finesse.

[ On my PC panel (NEC IPS), I have to get the gamma right to enable seeing all Black-Level / White-Saturation increments
(at the same time) on those Logom calibration images. Brightness/contrast is a part but alone won't get my panel that range.]


---

Back in the day, I adjusted brightness to some movie's shadow detail. Ok, I have it set to see all detail...
any brighter I don't get more detail only grayer black. Ok it's perfect (for that movie).
Now I see the AVSHD video and notice my brightness is not set right -too bright; I make it so 16 is invisible (black).
Back to the movie... I no longer see the seam of the black suit lapel as did with #16 (maybe even 15) slightly blinking.
I wonder if there is a point where detail isn't meant to be seen to its fullest extent and I should set #16 to invisible
and let movie detail fall where it may.

BTW, thanks for the time

We found on LGs, the Setting Adjustment for 1.9, 2.2 and 2.4 are misleading. We found that 1.9 actually gives 2.2. So if using 2.4, you've gone too high!
post #3733 of 3881
That's interesting; I never knew a LCD computer monitor (w /RGB feed?) was that different from a LCD TV.

Ted, I don't know how to access the calibration patterns you make - the sharpness especially I tried to find (full size).

----

I never set to gamma 1.9 and adjusted bright/contrast to give that a real try - why not; I'll do it now.

Second half of Dark Knight Rises and first half of Iron Man later I'm back to give verdict on gamma 1.9.

No wonder [ with gamma 2.2 ] I always felt like boosting brightness to get more visible shadow detail...
it was gamma messing with my mind!

Switching to 1.9 from 2.2 looks wrong (initially) and I would never have thought that was the way to go.

After dropping the brightness to work with 1.9 (using the AVSHD), nothing else needed fixing -
maybe the contrast by one click, but all-n-all that was easy.

No doubt more shadow detail and still black black letter-box. Perceived depth still good.
Comparing to gamma 2.2, gamma 1.9 looks washed out, ie, less vibrant - but actually this is more real.
Skin tones are definitely improved - something like micro-contrast splotchiness is gone.

I Googled around some to see about this gamma 1.9 business and found little.
The few entries I did see pertain to LED backlit LGs; I have a CCFL.
There's a lot of settings recommendations for my TV - and nobody plays with gamma 1.9?

Of course I'm now wondering if the CalMAN-3 10 point settings I'm using (link above) is valid
with gamma 1.9... it looks good but eyes will compensate I know. It's a mystery to me
why a CalMAN process would not have uncovered the correct gamma for LG LD450's.

You guys are helping me take a different view and my TV picture is better now than it was nine days ago.
post #3734 of 3881
Originally found out by a THX Pro Calibrator, who after the fact, messed up all 3 of my TVs he worked on.
Subsequently to this, ran my own tests: ie All Greyscale 10 Point, 2 Point and CMS set to Zeros - ran Calman readings. Whatever setting gets you closest to the 10 Point 2.2 Gamma, is the setting to use. (Make sure when finished with the 2 Point, reset back to 10 Point if using this method. I leave Greyscale and CMS with Zeroes, calibrate 2 Point and leave on 2 Point, and do my Greyscale and CMS/125 Point 3D LUT with either the iScan Duos on 2 of my sets, or the Radiance XE-3D on mine.)
On my set, and the Calibrator mentioned finding the same on other LGs, 1.9 came out best re 2.2 Gamma. The other problem with LGs - The Service Menu White Balances are all out of whack. Typically Warm gives a reading of around 9500K, Medium 11,500K and Cool at 13,500K. On my LG's, we found to stabilize the set, Service Menu White Balances for Cool, Medium and Warm, are all set to 6500K. Sets have seen far less problems since doing this!
post #3735 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post

Ted, I don't know how to access the calibration patterns you make - the sharpness especially I tried to find (full size).

I'm still working on authoring that disk for public release, it's not ready yet.
post #3736 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

The other problem with LGs - The Service Menu White Balances are all out of whack. Typically Warm gives a reading of around 9500K, Medium 11,500K and Cool at 13,500K. On my LG's, we found to stabilize the set, Service Menu White Balances for Cool, Medium and Warm, are all set to 6500K. Sets have seen far less problems since doing this!

Exactly , I have done the same on my LG LW4500 (LW450u in US)

ALL picture modes have the right grayscale with this method.
post #3737 of 3881
Thanks all for the help with gamma, etc. I didn't know what was wrong only that something was... now I know.
post #3738 of 3881
Hi Guys
I tried reading thru all the posts but my brain started to implode! I have an Oppo BDP103 going to Onkyo N818 and then onto my Panasonic P55VT50A plasma. Yesterday I had an engineer come out to replace a board and he couldn't believe I had not calibrated the Blu-Ray or the TV. Can anyone help?
I am not too technical but will appreciate any improvements that can be made.
Thanks in advance:)
post #3739 of 3881
Any suggestions on calibrating a projector?
post #3740 of 3881
Hi,
I have confirmed that HDMV works on Denon DVD-2500BTCI burned on DVD- or Blu-Ray media. AVCHD is NOT supported.
post #3741 of 3881
Hi everyone. I am new to the world of self calibration when it comes to use of proper equipment i.e. colorimeter and software. I recently purchase calman5 basic and an i1 Display pro. I have gone through the advanced workflow a couple times now and have gotten pretty comfortable with the adjustment and readings. My most recent attempt yielded what I believe to be very good results for my set (TC-P55ST60) both on paper and visually. My question is during the post calibration view all the results I saw were relatable to the individual steps I took during calibration and I understood them the only one I did not understand was the Gamut Luminance graph. I don't know if the values for the primary and secondary colors should be as they show or if the should all be even at a certain value could anyone make this a little more clear for me.

post #3742 of 3881
Here is another look at it in the report

post #3743 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denide View Post

the only one I did not understand was the Gamut Luminance graph. I don't know if the values for the primary and secondary colors should be as they show or if the should all be even at a certain value could anyone make this a little more clear for me.

The intent of the dark gamut luminance graph would be to have all colors at zero. Bars that are above zero indicate higher than target luminance, and bars below zero indicate lower than target luminance. The same information is displayed on the report, for example yellow in both graphs is below the target.
post #3744 of 3881
Thanks for the clarification. Those were my thoughts also but I found the explanation in calman in this regard a little lacking. there is also no deltaT to tell me if I should still be tweaking the luminance levels. I am assuming since the DeltaE2000 is below 3 that i don't have to do anymore tweaking unless I want too. Would you say I am correct in this?
post #3745 of 3881
First time Plasma owner (Samsung PN60F5300AFXZA). I downloaded and burned the AVCHD version and set my PS3 to the recommended settings. What do I do with black optimizer, HDMI black Level, color space etc, and all the other options?
post #3746 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by machavez00 View Post

First time Plasma owner (Samsung PN60F5300AFXZA). I downloaded and burned the AVCHD version and set my PS3 to the recommended settings. What do I do with black optimizer, HDMI black Level, color space etc, and all the other options?

Leave black optimizer and all other so-called enhancements off. Leave color space on auto unless you have a meter. Leave white balance at default and if your model has 10-point, leave it off. Without a meter you only want to adjust contrast, brightness, sharpness, maybe gamma a notch, and color and tint if you have a blue filter (or the TV has a blue only mode).

Set HDMI black level to normal on the TV and set RGB full range (HDMI) to full on the PS3. Those two need to match.
post #3747 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by willieconway View Post

Set HDMI black level to normal on the TV and set RGB full range (HDMI) to full on the PS3. Those two need to match.

Why would you do that? Normal/Full ends up looking neon with crushed blacks. PC levels and causes brightness to go into the mid 50s.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration/3450#post_22706396
post #3748 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by xvfx View Post

Why would you do that? Normal/Full ends up looking neon with crushed blacks. PC levels and causes brightness to go into the mid 50s.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration/3450#post_22706396

Into the mid 50s what? fL?

I can assure you that the normal+full combo works very well on my Samsung D7000 series. I'm fairly certain that low+limited would work just as well. They only need to match.

Would you like to discuss something you have actual knowledge about?
post #3749 of 3881
post #3750 of 3881

Can someone edit the OP list of blu-ray players to include the Sony BPD-S590?

 

It does support AVCHD v2.0, etc.

 

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