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AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 14

post #391 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Topher View Post

Sorry if this has been answered, but I did a search & didn't find anything.
I use an HTPC (running MediaPortal) for my media. I don't have either an HD-DVD play nor a Blu-Ray player.
Can this software be used by mounting the image with Daemon Tools & using CoreAVC or PowerDVD to play back the 'disk'?
Edit: If so, which version should I use, or doesn't it matter?

If your version of PowerDVD supports HD DVD, then I don't see why it wouldn't work. I haven't tried it, but anything that can read HD DVD or AVCHD should be able to read the disc.

Keep in mind that HTPCs can be pretty tricky. We can't guarantee that the patterns will be correct on an HTPC.
post #392 of 3881
Thread Starter 
I haven't adressed HTPC, because honestly calibration there is more complex. You're dealing with a number of different decoders depending upon format, that part I'm somewhat sure about and there are some other items I'm not so clear on. With Blu-ray and HD DVD players basically we're making the assumption that mpeg2, AVC, and VC-1 will be correctly decoded to the same levels by the player. I've seen on my computer though that mpeg2 doesn't always necessarily match AVC levels, so I have to attribute that to the different decoders. Even using the PowerDVD trial, with my ATI card (known to have issues with affecting levels) I was running into apparently different levels based on the source type.

Basically where I'm going here is that it's probably more important on a computer, than a standalone, for the source to match the type of material you'll be playing back. If you're mainly playing back DVDs, then it seems to me that a DVD calibration disk would make more sense. If you're playing back recorded ATSC or QAM which might be HD mpeg2, then you probably want a HD mpeg2 source. The HD DVD here is mpeg2, but the container is basically specific to HD DVD. Generally if HD mpeg2 playback is what you use your computer for, then patterns at w6rz.net might make more sense because they're .ts which will likely be closer to the format of your meda.

If you were running HD DVD and Blu-ray on your computer I'd have a different response, but that wasn't the impression I got from what you wrote. All of these disks do originate from mpeg2 files outside of the Blu-ray and HD DVD formats, but currently we have not been hosting those files and it would be something that would have to be discussed. Honestly though, there are probably tools available to split the HD DVD and Blu-ray videos into more common formats that would play back on your current software if you are trying to calibrate for playing back HD files on your computer.
post #393 of 3881
Since my DVD player is an HTPC, I'll chime in here.

Like every other device, you need to calibrate the entire chain. I have seen fairly big changes in saturation, levels, gamma going from one version of driver to another. Factor in overlay vs. VMR9 vs. EVR and you can see how things can get messed up quickly.

I'm a TheaterTek user and using VMR9 for DVD playback with the latest Nvidia drivers and TT's picture controls set at default settings video levels are maintained (as far as I can tell) and nothing too funky is happening elsewhere.

In fact when I calibrate my Xbox 360 for HD using the AVS disc and my HTPC for SD-DVD using GetGray I end up with almost the same settings except for obvious differences to account for 601 vs 709.
post #394 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

..... Honestly though, there are probably tools available to split the HD DVD and Blu-ray videos into more common formats that would play back on your current software if you are trying to calibrate for playing back HD files on your computer.

My media player plays "everything" except HD DVD or Blu-ray in a ISO Can anyone please point me to one of these tools in order to extract to AVCHD , ts or mpeg2 format.

Thank you.
post #395 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

Be sure to wear your lucky underwear

I couldn't find them so I chickened out. No need to kill a perfectly good BR player

I was doing some measurments on a guys C3X 1080 for him. Dawned on my my own DVD had every single thing I needed except the pixel perfect grid, which is built in on the PJ. I give all mine away so I had to burn a new copy. It plays fine and had the stuff I need for now.
post #396 of 3881
I've been looking, but I have not come across any specific instructions for running the HCFR software with these test patterns... other than the French version on the HCFR website. I've read through Tom Huffman's "Basic Guide to Color Calibration using a CMS", but is there anything more specific for the HCFR software ?

I am planning to run the HCFR calibration with the HD DVD test patterns next week, using an i1 colormeter. I am a first-timer with a colormeter, so just knowing what order to run with the test patterns would be a great help.
post #397 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Generally for a first run you'll want to begin by setting the display's user controls with the Basic Settings area. Then you can "measure gray scale, primary, and secondary colors" with HCFR. The patterns which correspond to that selection in HCFR are the 10% Grayscale and 100% color sections on the disk. That will fill in all the charts on the left of HCFR that you can use to give you an initial impression of how the display is generally performing. If you're not familiar with how to read the charts, then I found http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=586691 useful when I first tried HCFR.
post #398 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

My plasma (NEC) has a CMS system and after dialing in the primaries/secondaries to pretty much dead on (except for green) the flashing bars when looking through the red/green filters is off. The blue filter is actually the best and where it does work well is for setting saturation.

I'm using a D2 with HCFR so the red problem may simply be due to the known issues with reds and plasmas although the NEC is supposed to have an extra red filter and the picture doesn't look too red after calibation either.

Did the new hcfr improve things?

Do you run gray scale before pri/sec adjust? I have a Mits (NEC) w/ CMS, too.


bob
post #399 of 3881
I haven't actually checked the flashing bars with the filters again. I'll check it out and report back.

I honestly can tell if my calibration with the new plasma option with HCFR is any better than before. The changes I ended up making were small so it's unlikely that I would notice a big difference visually.

The picture looked really good before and it still looks really good.
post #400 of 3881
OK, just went back and checked.

Blue: Saturation had to be increased by 4 clicks using the filter, tint was 6 clicks toward green.

Red: Saturation had to be increased by 5 clicks using the filter, tint was about 4 clicks to green

Green: Saturation increased by 4 clicks using the filter, tint was OK.

Bear in mind these are the AVIA filters from over 10 years ago so they may have aged. I'm also not sure they are suitable for HD colours.
post #401 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Generally for a first run you'll want to begin by setting the display's user controls with the Basic Settings area. Then you can "measure gray scale, primary, and secondary colors" with HCFR. The patterns which correspond to that selection in HCFR are the 10% Grayscale and 100% color sections on the disk. That will fill in all the charts on the left of HCFR that you can use to give you an initial impression of how the display is generally performing. If you're not familiar with how to read the charts, then I found http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=586691 useful when I first tried HCFR.

Thanks for the link. I think I do understand the purpose of the chart, just not absolutely sure how to get those measurements. The toughest aspect for me is sorting out which patterns to use for which adjustments, and when to use a window or a full field pattern.

Part of it is just not knowing the terminology as well as I should. For instance, the difference between "color value" and "saturation" is a little fuzzy. I always thought a "color" setting in a TV menu was the same as "saturation". And it doesn't help that different manufacturers use different terms to mean the same thing... like "hue" and "tint". My Sony A3000 has a "color" setting, and now I am not sure if this is "saturation" or a color "value/brightness" setting. I'm guessing it is color value.

I am even a little confused with the terms "100% gray" or "100 IRE". These terms seemed to be used interchangeably here, but I think there is a distinction. Am I correct that 100% gray is white at 100 IRE, and that 100 IRE can refer to any color ?

I am going to keep reading up here, but eventually I think I will just have to play around with the HCFR software. What can it hurt.
post #402 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Measurements - When you make a selection under view with HCFR v2, it will list what patterns are expected for those measurements. To start out with, just try running the "gray scale" and then the "primaries and secondaries" measurements using the "10% Grayscale" and "100% Colors" sections from the disk. In the end, the only practical use of any reading here is if it helps you get your display closer to intended standards.

Windows vs. fields - Generally for most uses windows are fine. Maybe there are uses for fields, but the disk is mostly centered around windows because from what I've read more displays will run into fewer issues running windows than might happen for fields.

Terminology - I generally use the definitions from TomHuffman's CMS thread. Although Avia defines saturation differently, I just ignore the Avia definition and use the ones from that thread. On a Sony color is probably a luminace control, it's just a brightness control for color.

IRE vs Percentages - If you keep things digital like using HDMI or DVI then IRE is completely irrelevant. Again Avia is sort of the odd duck out because they use IRE while most everything else uses percentages. Even if you're using component, which is analog where IRE applies, I think for most applications it's entirely fine to discuss things by percentages and not to worry about understanding what IRE really means.
post #403 of 3881
I understand that when performing color measurements, either 75% intensity windows or 100% intensity windows can be used as long as the white window used as a reference is of the same intensity. A lot of test pattern disks offer both 75% and 100% intensity windows. When should one be used versus the other or does it not affect the measurements either way? I've never understood why both are included.
post #404 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

OK, just went back and checked.

Blue: Saturation had to be increased by 4 clicks using the filter, tint was 6 clicks toward green.

Red: Saturation had to be increased by 5 clicks using the filter, tint was about 4 clicks to green

Green: Saturation increased by 4 clicks using the filter, tint was OK.

Bear in mind these are the AVIA filters from over 10 years ago so they may have aged. I'm also not sure they are suitable for HD colours.


Any noticeable difference in the picture now?

thx

bob
post #405 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA View Post

A lot of test pattern disks offer both 75% and 100% intensity windows. When should one be used versus the other or does it not affect the measurements either way? I've never understood why both are included.

My last TV, that had color decoder controls, had a little bit of difference between 100% measurements and 75% measurements. I thought that http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536 used to address this item, but it really doesn't now. My impression was that 75% might be considered a little closer to average program material. The reason this disk includes both is just that on the last version of HCFR there wasn't an option to measure gray with colors (to look at color decoding), so it was easiest to do a 100% color run right after a 10% grayscale run. In the end I'm not sure it really matters one way or another, because the differences weren't very far apart on my TV.
post #406 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Any noticeable difference in the picture now?

thx

bob

I didn't actually change the settings to what is recommended by the filters. I just looked at the patterns to see how different they were.
post #407 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

OK, just went back and checked.

Blue: Saturation had to be increased by 4 clicks using the filter, tint was 6 clicks toward green.

Red: Saturation had to be increased by 5 clicks using the filter, tint was about 4 clicks to green

Green: Saturation increased by 4 clicks using the filter, tint was OK.

Bear in mind these are the AVIA filters from over 10 years ago so they may have aged. I'm also not sure they are suitable for HD colours.

Is that on a "100 click" scale?
post #408 of 3881
It's actually a "64 click" scale.
post #409 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Measurements -
Windows vs. fields -
Terminology -
IRE vs Percentages -

Thanks again "alluringreality". Your explanations are appreciated and helpful. I've read a lot of your helpful tips on the Sony A3000 threads and I can tell you know your stuff !!! I give your comments a more weight than most everyone else.

BTW, I did read over Tom Huffman's guide several times and I did see a "little bit" of inconsistency in terminology. Tom uses both the "percent gray" and "IRE" terms and I am never sure if they are suppose to mean the same thing in the context of his instructions.

Perhaps I can impose once more. Do the "x" and "y" coordinates on the CIE chart have some correlation to saturation and hue ? It would seem to be the case since color is defined by saturation, hue, and brightness (value); and brightness is not represented on the CIE chart.
post #410 of 3881
Thread Starter 
Quote:


I did read over Tom Huffman's guide several times and I did see a "little bit" of inconsistency in terminology. Tom uses both the "percent gray" and "IRE" terms and I am never sure if they are suppose to mean the same thing in the context of his instructions.

They probably are meant to mean the same. Most people don't use IRE exactly as it seems to be defined. At the end of the GetGray documentation http://www.calibrate.tv/docs/GetGrayCalDiscReadme.zip there is some information about IRE. In one of the postings here by ChrisWiggles there are more technical details like analog voltages and such things. Personally I have no use for the word IRE because almost all of my sources are digital connections.


Quote:


Do the "x" and "y" coordinates on the CIE chart have some correlation to saturation and hue ? It would seem to be the case since color is defined by saturation, hue, and brightness (value); and brightness is not represented on the CIE chart.

Saturation as defined in the CMS thread generally seems to be how far from white a point appears in xy coordinates. If a xy coordinate is at red that would be 100% saturated red and a gray would be 0% saturation as far as I can tell.

Hue as defined there is basically how an xy coordinate relates to white by angle. After you can take measurements you'll find that by changing the hue control that the secondaries will move along the CIE triangle, which changes the angle in relation to white.
post #411 of 3881
I didn't see anyone post this (though maybe I read past it). Not all versions of Nero 7 will properly burn the AVSHD iso. My initial version of Nero 7 would only write the image to a CD (which my PS3 wouldn't recognize). However, when I updated Nero 7 to the latest version (from nero.com), it then gave me the option to burn the iso to a DVD. The DVD-R I created now works fine on my PS3.

I suspect that one's mastering software might need to support the AVCHD format. According to the following Wikipedia entry, Nero added this support in version 7.8.5.0.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero_Burning_ROM

P.S. I also can confirm that Roxio 9 didn't work with this iso.

P.P.S. Thank you to the guys who put this together!!!
post #412 of 3881
When you say Roxio "didn't work" do you mean it failed to burn, or it looked like it worked but would not read after burning? My software is old, but has been very, very reliable (RecordnowMax). I got no errors and it burned a DVD without complaint. Gear (www.gearsoftware.com) is a pro burning package. They don't say anything about AVCHD compatibility, but that doesn't mean anything definative. Wondering if that is my problem.
post #413 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVBill View Post

I didn't see anyone post this (though maybe I read past it). Not all versions of Nero 7 will properly burn the AVSHD iso. My initial version of Nero 7 would only write the image to a CD (which my PS3 wouldn't recognize). However, when I updated Nero 7 to the latest version (from nero.com), it then gave me the option to burn the iso to a DVD. The DVD-R I created now works fine on my PS3.

I suspect that one's mastering software might need to support the AVCHD format. According to the following Wikipedia entry, Nero added this support in version 7.8.5.0.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero_Burning_ROM

P.S. I also can confirm that Roxio 9 didn't work with this iso.

P.P.S. Thank you to the guys who put this together!!!

Your software doesnt need to support AVCHD because the disk is provided in ISO format.
post #414 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

They probably are meant to mean the same. Most people don't use IRE exactly as it seems to be defined. At the end of the GetGray documentation http://www.calibrate.tv/docs/GetGrayCalDiscReadme.zip there is some information about IRE.

Thanks again... The GetGray PDF was excellent. I saved it and printed out a couple pages for future reference.
post #415 of 3881
Roxio 9 (on Vista) seemed to have the same problem as an early version of Nero 7: both recognized the AVCHD iso as valid, but both would only write it to a CD. As I previously mentioned, updating Nero to the latest 7 release allowed the flexibility of writing the AVCHD iso to a DVD.
post #416 of 3881
Thanks!

I downloaded this disc some time ago so I may have thanked you already but today I used this disc and the new 2.01 version of HFCR to do a calibration of the colors and grey for my PJ and it was actually lots of fun.

The pj looks great now. I don't care if it's placebo effect or not because it looks great either way and calibrating it was lots of fun.


-Brian
post #417 of 3881
Hi there,
I've downloaded the AVCHD ISO and while it is a 700MB size when expanded from 7z file, looking inside the ISO it looks empty .... is that normal?
post #418 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Hi there,
I've downloaded the AVCHD ISO and while it is a 700MB size when expanded from 7z file, looking inside the ISO it looks empty .... is that normal?

How are you "looking inside the ISO?"
post #419 of 3881
WinRAR is capable to "look" inside and axtract image data.... it may be fooled by something...

Well I'll burn it and see what happens!
post #420 of 3881
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

WinRAR is capable to "look" inside and axtract image data.... it may be fooled by something...

Well I'll burn it and see what happens!

I see. You won't see anything "inside" the ISO that way. The ISO is basically a disc "image," so it basically contains a bit for bit (or close to it) copy of the original master. The only thing that can really read the contents is an HD DVD/Blu ray player... although CD burning programs can burn the contents. The burning program doesn't necessarily care what the contents are, it just burns a bunch of 1's and 0's as recorded in the ISO image.
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