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AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 17

post #481 of 3625
2/12/08 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Maybe Tom will see this and respond. I have been thinking about this as well. Yes, I agree, it IS fun.

My opinion of why he chose Red as the primary to use in setting Color is that it is in between the other two, thus making any blue or green error only "one off", whereas using either blue or green to set Color makes the opposite end of the spectrum (green or blue) errors "two off". Also, blue error is the most tolerable to our eyes. Red and green errors bother more.

So, if you don't have CMS, you are as close as you can get to having all 3 in the ballpark by using red (although I have wondered if there isn't actually a intermediate point someplace between red and green (closer to red, probably) that would make all the errors comparable. And even if you do have CMS, by having your errors only one off, you have to make less of an adjustment.


Where R, G, B luminance "falls" is up to the color decoder on your set (assuming you don't have a CMS.) For instance, if you set Red correctly on two different TVs, one could have high Green and the other Low Green. Setting Red (or any other color) exactly correct doesn't guarantee that you have minimized the error in the other two colors.

The best way to set the color decoder is to look at each color individually and iterate until you find the setting that has the least error in each color. There is some merit to allowing more error in certain colors than others based on our perception of those colors. The important thing is to check the error for each color instead of just one so that you know you are getting the lowest error possible for each color. You will most likely have to settle on a color setting that is a compromise in error between each color.

EDIT: Just wanted to clarify that this info pertains to TVs with only one "master" color decoder control, usually labeled "Color." This accounts for the vast majority of TVs. The goal is to set that control so that the luminance values for each primary have the lowest error possible.
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post #482 of 3625
2/12/08 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

Where R, G, B luminance "falls" is up to the color decoder on your set (assuming you don't have a CMS.) For instance, if you set Red correctly on two different TVs, one could have high Green and the other Low Green. Setting Red (or any other color) exactly correct doesn't guarantee that you have minimized the error in the other two colors.

The best way to set the color decoder is to look at each color individually and iterate until you find the setting that has the least error in each color. There is some merit to allowing more error in certain colors than others based on our perception of those colors. The important thing is to check the error for each color instead of just one so that you know you are getting the lowest error possible for each color. You will most likely have to settle on a color setting that is a compromise in error between each color.

EDIT: Just wanted to clarify that this info pertains to TVs with only one "master" color decoder control, usually labeled "Color." This accounts for the vast majority of TVs. The goal is to set that control so that the luminance values for each primary have the lowest error possible.

Very good summary. One benefit of running through a colormeter calibration is simply learning (and understanding) the television's controls and all the different measurement terms. What you said would not have made nearly as much sense if I had not used the test patterns with the HCFR program. In fact, all the calibration discussions I have been reading are starting to make a lot more sense. I think I will have to send a little Paypal to the HCFR folks. And thanks to all who worked on the AVS HD test patterns.

One final question... Do you agree that I would be better err'ing towards a more accurate green or red, rather than blue ? This puzzles me because of the fact that both Avia and DVE provide blue filters for checking color brightness.
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post #483 of 3625
2/12/08 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

Where R, G, B luminance "falls" is up to the color decoder on your set (assuming you don't have a CMS.) For instance, if you set Red correctly on two different TVs, one could have high Green and the other Low Green. Setting Red (or any other color) exactly correct doesn't guarantee that you have minimized the error in the other two colors.

The best way to set the color decoder is to look at each color individually and iterate until you find the setting that has the least error in each color. There is some merit to allowing more error in certain colors than others based on our perception of those colors. The important thing is to check the error for each color instead of just one so that you know you are getting the lowest error possible for each color. You will most likely have to settle on a color setting that is a compromise in error between each color.

EDIT: Just wanted to clarify that this info pertains to TVs with only one "master" color decoder control, usually labeled "Color." This accounts for the vast majority of TVs. The goal is to set that control so that the luminance values for each primary have the lowest error possible.

I gather that the "significance" of the errors are not equal for different colors. An blue error of "2", for example, would be less of a problem than an error of "2" for green or red.

You could just add the absolute value of the errors:

[red error] + [green error] + [blue error] = Total Error

Do this over a series of different Color settings and pick the one with the minimum Total Error.

The problem with this is that it would equally weight each color's error. If, for example, blue error is 50% as important as green, and red error is 80% as important as green, you would do this:

[.5 x blue error] + [.8 x red error] + [green error] = Weighted Total Error

Then do this for several color settings and find the color setting that gives a minimum value to the sum of these "weighted" values.

If in fact [red error] = [green error] in significance, then you would set your Color to minimize [red error], which is exactly what Tom Huffman says to do, even though he is assuming you have a CMS and can thereafter adjust blue and green. Any point between red and green would create errors that cancel each other, but the blue error would increase as you move farther towards green. Any point between blue and red would overwhelm the blue benefit by a summation of the more important, altough equal, red and green errors.

Have I got this right?
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post #484 of 3625
2/12/08 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

Where R, G, B luminance "falls" is up to the color decoder on your set (assuming you don't have a CMS.) For instance, if you set Red correctly on two different TVs, one could have high Green and the other Low Green. Setting Red (or any other color) exactly correct doesn't guarantee that you have minimized the error in the other two colors.

The best way to set the color decoder is to look at each color individually and iterate until you find the setting that has the least error in each color. There is some merit to allowing more error in certain colors than others based on our perception of those colors. The important thing is to check the error for each color instead of just one so that you know you are getting the lowest error possible for each color. You will most likely have to settle on a color setting that is a compromise in error between each color.

EDIT: Just wanted to clarify that this info pertains to TVs with only one "master" color decoder control, usually labeled "Color." This accounts for the vast majority of TVs. The goal is to set that control so that the luminance values for each primary have the lowest error possible.

btw, hwjohn (or anybody that knows ... heh), since the vast majority only have a single "Color" adjustment in the user menu, do you know of many TVs that have additional color decoder controls in the service menu? And, more to the point, how does one find out if a given TV has useful service menu adjustments without risking voiding one's warranty?
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post #485 of 3625
2/12/08 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

I gather that the "significance" of the errors are not equal for different colors. An blue error of "2", for example, would be less of a problem than an error of "2" for green or red.

You could just add the absolute value of the errors:

[red error] + [green error] + [blue error] = Total Error

Do this over a series of different Color settings and pick the one with the minimum Total Error.

The problem with this is that it would equally weight each color's error. If, for example, blue error is 50% as important as green, and red error is 80% as important as green, you would do this:

[.5 x blue error] + [.8 x red error] + [green error] = Weighted Total Error

Then do this for several color settings and find the color setting that gives a minimum value to the sum of these "weighted" values.

Thats what I was talking about when I said there was some merit to weighting the error. I don't know of any published equation that actually gives a "weight" to each color, but it may be out there.


Quote:


If in fact [red error] = [green error] in significance, then you would set your Color to minimize [red error], which is exactly what Tom Huffman says to do, even though he is assuming you have a CMS and can thereafter adjust blue and green. Any point between red and green would create errors that cancel each other, but the blue error would increase as you move farther towards green. Any point between blue and red would overwhelm the blue benefit by a summation of the more important, altough equal, red and green errors.

Have I got this right?

Your thinking is a bit flawed. The equation you would use would probably square or take the absolute value of each term so that you would not get negative errors. The reason for this is that a negative green error would not offset an "equal" postive red error. Think about this scenario:

Blue error: 0%
Red error: +75%
Green error: -75%

The resulting picture would be horrible. The red and green wouldn't offset each other, but instead both would contribute to the amount of error because green is severely low and red is severely high.
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post #486 of 3625
2/12/08 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

btw, hwjohn (or anybody that knows ... heh), since the vast majority only have a single "Color" adjustment in the user menu, do you know of many TVs that have additional color decoder controls in the service menu? And, more to the point, how does one find out if a given TV has useful service menu adjustments without risking voiding one's warranty?

Outside of a full CMS, some Sony's have individual color decoding controls (that are kind of a partial CMS). I can't say for sure, but I believe most of the Sony HD CRTs and the A2000/XBR2/XBR1 series have these controls. To my knowledge the newer A3000 series does not have them. I'm unaware of any other manufacturer that includes them, but they may exist on some FPs.
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post #487 of 3625
2/12/08 at 5:03pm
Given the imminent death of HD-DVD, I think my Toshiba XA2 is going to become a dedicated DVD only player. To that end, is there a good (and free) Rec 601 calibration disc available here that will have most or all the same patterns as the AVS HD disc ?
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post #488 of 3625
2/12/08 at 5:08pm
For a minimal fee you can download the GetGray disc. Worth every penny IMHO.
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post #489 of 3625
2/12/08 at 6:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

Given the imminent death of HD-DVD, I think my Toshiba XA2 is going to become a dedicated DVD only player. To that end, is there a good (and free) Rec 601 calibration disc available here that will have most or all the same patterns as the AVS HD disc ?

There is a basic disc that you can download in TomHuffmans CMS sticky. Outside of that, there isn't anything that I know of that is free.

In all likelihood the same calibration you get with AVS HD will hold for standard DVD. The disc Tom provides has enough patterns to double check it and make sure the color decoding is correct.
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post #490 of 3625
2/12/08 at 8:00pm
Thanks guys. I'll check out the GetGray disc also. Can't hurt to have a variety of test patterns and I've yet to find a really good sharpness pattern.
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post #491 of 3625
2/12/08 at 8:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

Thanks guys. I'll check out the GetGray disc also. Can't hurt to have a variety of test patterns and I've yet to find a really good sharpness pattern.

The next release of AVS HD will have a pretty nice one (at least we think so). It should be released pretty soon.
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post #492 of 3625
2/13/08 at 12:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

Where R, G, B luminance "falls" is up to the color decoder on your set (assuming you don't have a CMS.) ......
....Just wanted to clarify that this info pertains to TVs with only one "master" color decoder control, usually labeled "Color." This accounts for the vast majority of TVs. The goal is to set that control so that the luminance values for each primary have the lowest error possible.

Kind of OT here but so intersting I would let it go!

Some sets are missing full CMS controls, so the calibration challenge becomes tougher.

For example, the following are the controls in my TV; can someone confirm what happens when adjusting them?

- Brightness & Contrast (adjusts brightness, contrast, contrast ratio, gamma curve; does it also influence color luminance?)

- Colour (only one master control; adjusts color decoding only or does it influences color luminance?)

- R,G,B, high\\low controls (adjusts grayscale 0-50 & 50-100)

- Hue controls (adjusts color shifts for each color: R more yellowish or magentaish, G more bluish or yellowish, B more cyanish or magentaish, Y more greenish or reddish, C more bluish or greenish, M more reddish or bluish. Sure it changes colorpoints on the CIE chart, does it influence color luminance?).

Maybe I should experiment...
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post #493 of 3625
2/13/08 at 6:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Kind of OT here but so intersting I would let it go!

Some sets are missing full CMS controls, so the calibration challenge becomes tougher.

For example, the following are the controls in my TV; can someone confirm what happens when adjusting them?

- Brightness & Contrast (adjusts brightness, contrast, contrast ratio, gamma curve; does it also influence color luminance?)

Brightness adjusts black level, and contrast adjust white level. Together, the also influence contrast ratio and can also affect gamma, as you suggested. They don't directly influence color chrominance or luminance.

Quote:


- Colour (only one master control; adjusts color decoding only or does it influences color luminance?)

When we talk about color decoding, we are talking about how the set displays the luminance (Y) of each primary in relation to the luminance of white (I'm simplifying a bit). For instance, we want Red to have 21% of the luminance of white. Color decoding controls the percentage for each color. Set color decoding too low and Red will be less than 21%, too high and the opposite happens.

Quote:


- R,G,B, high\\low controls (adjusts grayscale 0-50 & 50-100)

Yes.

Quote:


- Hue controls (adjusts color shifts for each color: R more yellowish or magentaish, G more bluish or yellowish, B more cyanish or magentaish, Y more greenish or reddish, C more bluish or greenish, M more reddish or bluish. Sure it changes colorpoints on the CIE chart, does it influence color luminance?).

Maybe I should experiment...

Hue theoretically only affects cyan... but I have seen this vary from set to set in some cases.

Most of these questions are discussed/answered in the CMS sticky thread and other areas. Be sure to read those. We don't mind answering some specific questions in this thread, but we want to keep it focused on AVS HD and not general calibration, as those topics are already covered (to a much greater extent) in other places.
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post #494 of 3625
2/13/08 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Kind of OT here but so intersting I would let it go!

Some sets are missing full CMS controls, so the calibration challenge becomes tougher.

For example, the following are the controls in my TV; can someone confirm what happens when adjusting them?

- Brightness & Contrast (adjusts brightness, contrast, contrast ratio, gamma curve; does it also influence color luminance?)

- Colour (only one master control; adjusts color decoding only or does it influences color luminance?)

- R,G,B, high\\low controls (adjusts grayscale 0-50 & 50-100)

- Hue controls (adjusts color shifts for each color: R more yellowish or magentaish, G more bluish or yellowish, B more cyanish or magentaish, Y more greenish or reddish, C more bluish or greenish, M more reddish or bluish. Sure it changes colorpoints on the CIE chart, does it influence color luminance?).

Maybe I should experiment...

Yes, and let us know what you find. Don't forget the effect that color temp has (cool, normal, warm).
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post #495 of 3625
2/15/08 at 2:14am
My first burn attempt went bad... my PS3 couldn't read the disc..... after a while I've realized my mistake: I've burned the ISO on a CD!
Back to imgburn, this time on a DVD... playback smoothly.... congrats for the logo!

In the color/grayscale sequence you should enable the "next chapter" navigation on last pattern in the sequence: seems disabled and you need to go for DVD-menu\\Top Menu on the remote.... little boring

Now the questions:

- your windows patterns have larger areas than HCFR's DVD; as I've read plasma screens suffer from power drain on large/full screen patterns, could you explain if the "plasma factor" was taken in account?

- Have you got some REC 601/75% windowed patterns? I'd like to check if the video chain is using correctly color references, testing REC601@576p and REC709@1080p....
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post #496 of 3625
2/15/08 at 6:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

My first burn attempt went bad... my PS3 couldn't read the disc..... after a while I've realized my mistake: I've burned the ISO on a CD!
Back to imgburn, this time on a DVD... playback smoothly.... congrats for the logo!

In the color/grayscale sequence you should enable the "next chapter" navigation on last pattern in the sequence: seems disabled and you need to go for DVD-menu\\Top Menu on the remote.... little boring

This is a limitation of the authoring software and won't change.

Quote:


Now the questions:

- your windows patterns have larger areas than HCFR's DVD; as I've read plasma screens suffer from power drain on large/full screen patterns, could you explain if the "plasma factor" was taken in account?

We didn't do anything special for plasmas. The patterns on our disc should be small enough that you don't have problems. If you have problems with the window sections, then you are probably just going to have problems period. Several people with plasmas have used the disk to calibrate their sets, maybe they can comment.

Quote:


- Have you got some REC 601/75% windowed patterns? I'd like to check if the video chain is using correctly color references, testing REC601@576p and REC709@1080p....

No. I believe there are some on TomHuffmans disc, and also on GetGray.
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post #497 of 3625
2/16/08 at 10:10am
Thread Starter 
There was a request for the Disk Logo for making a CD sleeve. The logo is in the attached zip.

 

AVS_HD_709_logo.zip 256.2548828125k . file
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post #498 of 3625
2/16/08 at 10:20am
Thank you

RayJr
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post #499 of 3625
2/17/08 at 8:17am
Finally got the AVSHD 709 to burn on a DVD . Turns out , as someone here mentioned , it was the version of Roxio I had . Switched to ImgBurn 2.4 and all is well . I'm using it on my PS3 and it works OK . Problem now is to have Sony fix the BTB and WTW over HDMI in the next firmware release and I'll be able to see most of the patterns

Scott...................
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post #500 of 3625
2/17/08 at 8:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_R_K View Post

I'm using it on my PS3 and it works OK . Problem now is to have Sony fix the BTB and WTW over HDMI in the next firmware release and I'll be able to see most of the patterns

See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post13044461 for some PS3 settings disussion. The linked post has settings that should show above white and below black over HDMI.
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post #501 of 3625
2/17/08 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_R_K View Post

Finally got the AVSHD 709 to burn on a DVD . Turns out , as someone here mentioned , it was the version of Roxio I had . Switched to ImgBurn 2.4 and all is well . I'm using it on my PS3 and it works OK . Problem now is to have Sony fix the BTB and WTW over HDMI in the next firmware release and I'll be able to see most of the patterns

Scott...................

What TV do you have? As long as it supports Y Pb/Pr Cb/Cr you should be fine by turning the PS3 superwhite to "on."

Brandon
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post #502 of 3625
2/17/08 at 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

What TV do you have? As long as it supports Y Pb/Pr Cb/Cr you should be fine by turning the PS3 superwhite to "on."

Brandon

To see BTB a WTW on my PS3 I had to set "BD / DVD Video Output Format (HDMI)" to "Y Pb / Cb Pr / Cr". It appears the "automatic" setting did not work.
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post #503 of 3625
2/17/08 at 6:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

What TV do you have? As long as it supports Y Pb/Pr Cb/Cr you should be fine by turning the PS3 superwhite to "on."

Brandon

The PS3 is feeding RGB over HDMI through my Pioneer AVR to a DVDO HD+ which will only accept RGB at its DVI input . This is then sent to my PJ which is set to receive RGB as well .

I'll try the Y PbPr setting and see if I get a picture .Thanks very much for the info and concern .

Scott...............
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post #504 of 3625
2/20/08 at 12:15am
Recently got the Panasonic BD30. When I got off of work, I'm going to download the AVCHD version and just drag it onto a Sandisc card then run it right from the card rather than burn it onto a DVD. Anyone else done it like this and have any issues?
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post #505 of 3625
2/20/08 at 6:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xberto View Post

Recently got the Panasonic BD30. When I got off of work, I'm going to download the AVCHD version and just drag it onto a Sandisc card then run it right from the card rather than burn it onto a DVD. Anyone else done it like this and have any issues?

I doubt you will be able to do that. The patterns aren't raw AVC files, they are in an ISO format. You will probably have to burn to DVD.
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post #506 of 3625
2/20/08 at 7:05am
I used Nero 6 and burned DVD+R and DVD-R discs and tried to play them on my Panasonic BD30. The player attempted to read them but displayed "disc not compatible" Nero gave me the option of burning discs at a DVD bootable or a data file. I tried both ways with new disc but still got the same message.
Wonder if I am burning them wrong or if the BD30 doesnt like file. I don't have any problems playing AVCHD burned from my Panasonic HDC-SD5 Camcorder using the supplied burner (VW-BN1)
I was going to try draging the iso file onto a SDHC card but I don't have the proper card reader .
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post #507 of 3625
2/20/08 at 7:54am
Thread Starter 
There have been reports of Nero 6 having issues burning the AVCHD iso. The last person that reported was able to use the Nero 8 trial to burn. You might just want to wait until tomorrow. I should have the new versions uploaded before tomorrow evening. I'm going to create the iso with imgburn and see if it's more compatible. There will be a post here that will announce the RC1 release after the first post is revised.
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post #508 of 3625
2/20/08 at 7:59am
Yea I was downloading trial as I wrote that last post. Got the disc burned with Nero 8 and it worked. Now I just need to research how to use the disc. My calibration experience is limited to "Sound&Vision HT tune up". These patterns look different but I'm sure the same concepts apply.

Thanks for the tools!
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post #509 of 3625
2/20/08 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xberto View Post

I used Nero 6 and burned DVD+R and DVD-R discs and tried to play them on my Panasonic BD30. The player attempted to read them but displayed "disc not compatible" Nero gave me the option of burning discs at a DVD bootable or a data file. I tried both ways with new disc but still got the same message.
Wonder if I am burning them wrong or if the BD30 doesnt like file. I don't have any problems playing AVCHD burned from my Panasonic HDC-SD5 Camcorder using the supplied burner (VW-BN1)
I was going to try draging the iso file onto a SDHC card but I don't have the proper card reader .

Post Deleted. Didn't see that you got it working.
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post #510 of 3625
2/21/08 at 9:53am
Thread Starter 
NEW PATTERNS:
- Sharpness and overscan
- Contrast section with ANSI contrast and modified ANSI contrast
- Revised primary color flashing pattern
- A color luminance pattern equivalent to what requested
- Full-screen grayscale ramp and bars patterns as requested
- Dynamic brightness based on http://www.walvisions.com/PattPages/...ss_pattern.htm
- Star chart from http://www.imatest.com/docs/testcharts.html
- 10%, 30%, 50%, 70%, 90%, and 75% fields in the Uniformity section
- 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% Color saturation windows (Thanks to Georges G for levels)
- Near White and Near Black sections to match ColorHCFR
- Duplicate color windows arranged for CalMan use

NOTES ABOUT RC1:
- Added BDMV version
- Removed popup menus from HD DVD to match Blu-ray versions and to see if the BD-UP5000 would work as reported in the HD DVD authoring thread.
- The HD DVD is a revised mpeg2 video encode, intended to be 24p from pulldown.
- The Blu-ray versions remain 1080i AVC. Updating the Blu-ray to 1080p/24 is something we've been experimenting with due to how the Ulead software doesn't support that video type.
- 1 and 254 levels were used for ANSI contrast, while 16 and 235 were used for contrast black and white images. This seemed to match the other materials I had available for comparison.
- The single pixel patterns from the previous disk have been replaced by the single pixel items included in the Sharpness and Overscan pattern to check for scaling.
- Due to reported issues with the prior Nero 8 AVCHD .iso, the new AVCHD .iso is from the Imgburn 2.4.0.0 release and taken directly off the Ulead disk.
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