Master Burn-In/IR/Break In Thread Part II: All Posts Here Only - Page 100

aright that makes sense thanks...

Hi guys!

I just recently bought a "New Other" (as per eBay) Pro-151fd from a company in New York, and I had some questions about the break-in process.

1. What happens if I don't break-in my TV? Is it even worth ISF calibrating when it hasn't been properly broken-in (let's say I reach 200 hours, but it wasn't by constantly playing that calibration DVD)?
2. I don't know how many hours my out of the box TV has on it, so what if it comes with over 100 hours of usage time? Is it even possible to break-in the TV if it's already been used that much? More importantly, is the ISF calibration worth it at that point?

Thanks so much!
Cole

The general rule of thumb is 200 hours, and as long as you vary the content on the display you're fine. Just don't do pillar boxes or letter boxes without plenty of full screen. Some calibrators will go with 100 hours or more use, but most would say wait until 200 hours so the phosphors have stabilized. While some might swear by the slides, I think most would agree as long as the TV has been used to around 200 hours, by then a calibration will be far more likely to "stick". If you're not going to get a calibration, then I'd not worry about it. Just enjoy it. The topic can start a sh*tstorm, but the break in period is really only advisable for the purpose of a calibration, because the PQ settings at hour 1 might not be the absolute optimum settings at hour 180, and you want optimum settings if you're going to pay someone for it; that's why you break it in first. Whether or not break in matters outside of calibration seems to be a point of contention here from what I've read. I'm still a rookie at doing my own calibrations, but that's what I've gathered from reading here.

Hi, I bought a LG 50PK750 for the kids 6 months ago. 2 weeks ago I discovered that the Cartoon Network Logo was imprinted on the screen (My 6 year old is a Ben10 fan).
I'm attaching some photos of the problem.
Is not very visible on normal viewing and it does seem that is slowly fading away, but very slowly.
I played a few hours of break in slides with no luck. I also used the plasma IR removing utilities (white wash /color wash) a few times with no apparent results.
I didn't want to go the LCD route at the time because I hate the artificial imaging and motion blur and some time I like to watch TV with them.
Cartoon Network viewing time is still permitted but with the cinema zooming function enable on level 14 which is a lot and a lot of image information is being lost to the point of just watching faces.
I'm leaning towards just ignore this a give the kid a chance to watch his favorite show on normal settings, without zooming or anything; just the pixel orbiter activated. At the end the set was bought for them and they couldn't care less for this.

What do you guys think?

Thanks in advance for your comments,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3228987...2397/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/3228987...1526/lightbox/

My son does the same exact thing. He watches cartoon network for hours and leaves the tv on. Luckily the IR goes away on my samsung. I think you should just let the kid enjoy the tv. The IR should fade, I think it just takes longer on LGs.

It is IR. It does not appear to be burn in and since it is fading, that indicate it is IR. I am in the same boat. My son watches sprout and they have a static logo but I haven't had this happen to me, yet. I am starting to believe that some brands are more prone to IR than others, which concerns me a great deal.

I would say let it go, try watching something other than cartoon network, if he/she will. Watch DVD's or something. Then, I believe it will fade out entirely after some time.

maybe with a mild push from consumers, networks will start rotating their translucnte logos to different corners of the screen after every commercial break.

Yes,
Even i would like that to happen sooner than later !

ZOOM it out and lowered the Brightness/Contrast if your kid insists on watching the network. It's gonna take a while for it to go away if you're constantly playing the same channel. The best remedy would be to watch a lot of NatGEO HD or Discover HD in normal Brightness/Contrast and let it phase out within time. Again, it will take weeks or even months before you'll see any improvement.

Well, me and a few other guys from another thread had took the initiative and contacted ESPN and this is the outcome:

"Dear XXXX,

Thank you for contacting us.

"Burn In" has been a known phenomenon that can occur with plasma screen technology. If you have a complaint, it should be pursued with the manufacturer or retailer from whom you purchased the TV.

Sincerely,

Brandon
ESPN Viewer Response"

--------------- Original Message ---------------

"I am writing to kindly request that you have your ESPN network logo which is currently being displayed on the bottom right corner of the screen to be changed from 'Bright White' to a more friendlier or Transparent-type logo, or perhaps have it appear on/off intermittently. Reason being is I owned a Plasma TV which are prone to screen Burn-Ins and it is preventing me to view any ESPN programs.

Thank you for your concern,
From long time ESPN program subscriber".

ref:00D480H6.5004EpMoA:ref

Thanks everybody for your feedback.
Yesterday I went to a nearby electronics store just to add into the equation the possibility to exchange my set for a LCD set. To be honest I went there with an open mindset and talking to myself as I was arriving to the store: “I do like LCD's, I do like LCD's, they're the wisest choice: no burn, greener, slimmer, cooler, etc.)
Well … It didn't work out. I can get over the unrealistic colors and torching scenes, but as long as the characters don't move! How can one stand that artificial trail of pixels that every movement traces on the screen?
Given the ratio of LCD's vs. Plasmas being on display at that store I came to the conclusion that every human being are marketing sponges that can get used to everything except for no eating or not going to the bathroom.
As for my particular situation I am banning the Cartoon Network Channel until that on-air logo or my IR disappears, whatever it comes first. And for my kid's good fortune (and Cartoon Network as well) I started to buy the BEN10 DVD collection. I can only hope those are burning logo free.

Thanks again,

^^If you have Cable, you can go to Video-On-Demand in the 'kids/family' section and select the cartoons of your choice, many do not show the logo if you zoom it to full screen.

What are the recommanded settings for the break-in period if I plan to use "break-in slides" (exclusively and continuously for ~100 hours after the initial setup) on a Samsung D series plasma (51D550)?

Are logos that are pretty transparent a problem? Behind the tbs logo, you can basically see all of the colors/movement behind it

Why do people keep asking the same question over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over... Well you get the picture.

it's easier then searching?

edit: and its just another post in a thread dedicated to the information (with 100+ pages already)...I'll rephrase, if you don't want to be bothered answering thats fine, but there's no reason to be a **** about it...

I just fabricated this slide-show pack for myself.

As much as I understand I need to exercise the cells (mostly the phosphor material) but the R,G,B sub-pixels are fully independent across the whole panel, and gray shades use all the three (R,G,B) sub-pixels equally, so using additional primary, secondary or mixed colors would be only a waste of time.

The commonly used break-in slides doesn't use any low luminance images, but I decided to add those too (the exclusion of the single-channel shades improved the overall efficiency anyway but I considered that single-channel images let the other two channels resting). Is it a bad idea? (I know that the dithering noise is very noticeable on dark patches and a static dithering noise pattern would age the pixels unevenly but the dithering is always there, it's only our eye and cognitive system + the random coincidences that makes us notice it more or less depending on the content...)

Grow up..

There are no recommended settings because it doesn't make sense to use break-in slides. I have never seen a statement by a single company recommending the use of them or even acknowledging their existence. Just watch exclusively 16/9 in the first 100 hours and you will be fine. There is no way that there will be noticeable uneven aging if you do that. If you disagree, prove it or shut it.

There is no such thing as Plasma Burn-in! Watch, Play, Compute the way you want to. JJ

Yes,
I fully agree with you...

Transparent logos are designed to reduced the effects of IR, so in essence they pretty much harmless.

Bhwaaaaaahahahahaah!

I have 3 reasons why I would run the break-in slides:

Fisrt: I will use this TV as a PC monitor. I want to watch Blu-Ray movies (with black bars), play games (with HUDs), etc from the very first moment after I disconnect my LCD and connect the PDP.
(Well, it will be a later decision if I should keep an LCD too. -> If I will have serious [almost burn-in like] IR, I will stop the "abuse" and either sell the PDP before it's too late or re-arrange my room for two displays...)

Second: I don't want to spend ~100 hours with an uncalibrated display. But as much as I understand, I shouldn't try to calibrate it before 100-200 hours runtime. (On reason that I have to display test patterns for prolonged periods which can cause IR even on older panels and the second that the colorimetric characteristics of the display will significantly fluctuate during this period.)

Third: It is a "happy accident" that my display will arrive on Monday and I will leave the house on Monday night and come back on Thursday night, so the TV can run the slides while I am out. (The house won't be empty, so somebody will be able to take a look at it from time to time.)



Another question:
Does a full-screen, static, homogeneously 100% white image cause burn-in?
I am asking because I read this post and thought: Why not do the break-in like this (this would be much faster)?

Is it OK to do something like this on a PDP? (Not exclusively, of course, but sometimes between BD watching and gaming sessions...)
(Don't laugh... I only messed around with my currently opened windows to simulate what I do sometimes. I'm not that idiot like this video shows. )

Anotehr way to avoid burn in is to switch from 1:1 pixel mapping to 5 percent overscan after so many uses, its what I do b/c it moves logos more then the orbiter would.

You kind of changed your tone there from your first post lol...

I used my 42" plasma as my computer monitor for a little over a year, doing the regular activity including homework and such like in your video...Just make sure to use a screen saver with a short idle time I think I used 5 minutes, but it might have been 1 minute...I did see some slight IR once in a while (mainly after turning the TV off), but again I also didn't use it exclusively and I would watch enough TV/leave the screen saver on long enough for it to disappear...

Also I didn't use it as my monitor right away though...this was 4-5 years ago already, I didn't research IR/Burn-in at the time and don't think I knew about the 100 hour break-in period...But I must have watched at least 100+ hours of normal TV on it before my roommate in college got kicked out and I decided to make it my computer monitor...So I'm pretty sure it was properly broke in before I decided to keep the static computer images on it...

I don't know much about the subject of IR/Burn-in but in this thread it's been brought up that breaking it in 24/7 for 4-5 days straight is not the best way to do it...so I would be careful with that, its best to give the TV some rest between break-in sessions...

Yah, sometimes I read posts like yours ("use it with some precaution and there will be no problem"), but other times I run into threads like "the OSD of my BD player burned-in to my VT25".
So, I think it will be fine but sometimes I get confused. Time will tell, I think.
(I usually run all my hardwares with the "it runs until it lasts" principles and I am usually lucky with them.)

Well, I think I found some tiny little (possible) bugs in the "official" break-in DVD / slide-show-pack.

----------
Let me show you the first like this...
The RGB stands for a Red, Green and Blue sub-pixel triple ("a pixel"). A thin R means that it's OFF and a bold R means it's ON. (The actual content has some steps between OFF and ON, so I mean OFF = 0%, ON = anything else but not zero.)

Let's see a part of the "infinite" loop:

||| RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB ||| RGB RGB RGB RGB RGB

Every sub-pixels are ON for 10 slides but the longest continuous ON time of the Red and Blue sub-pixels is 10 slides and the longest continuous ON time of the Green sub-pixels is only 5 slides.

-----

Now let's talk about the other one: Single channel (fully saturated Red, Green, Blue) slides.

Well, you may think an input with R=100, B=0, G=0 numbers will result in an RGB state (with completely OFF Blue and Green). But no... this isn't that simple anymore.
Many LCD and plasma manufacturers use wide color gamut phosphors (of RGB LEDs) to make "Joe" to say "WOOOWWW I WANT THAT" on the shop.

And a benevolent manufacturer will offer the standard (I mean standardized, like the ITU BT.709) gamut with software based color space emulation. (This is a real problem alone but I don't wish to discuss the observer mesmerism [which makes this emulation noticeably imperfect] and the problems with the "of-the-shelf" colorimeters. That's another topic...)

So, if you run these slides with a picture mode which applies gamut emulation, then an R=100, G=0, B=0 input can actually be converted to (let's say as a non-real example) R=85, G=3, B=5. (And the reasonable picture modes often apply gamut emulation because the native gamut looks weird, so it's possible that the user will use this kind of picture mode which looks right...)
-----------


I don't say that these are real problem in practice (yah, many people used these slides in the last... decade?), but this is the AV Science forum, so please don't hurt me if I am too theoretical and analytical.


My suggestion is to use gray shades only. (It's safer and could be more effective.)

As of the efficiency... I am not sure if the original author of the colored slides took it into consideration (or if it was a "happy accident" because it's a great thing or a simple accident which only makes the whole process less efficient...) that a single-channel slide will let the other two sub-pixels rest.
But I also considered that we want to avoid a possible overheating (I think we actually want to simulate some "efficient but not too unrealistically hard" case. I do fear about the dilatation when we have gas and glass...), so I put some 0% black slides to my package.

(And my earlier package used randomized gray slides but I reconsidered that. I think it's better to make it smoothly -> smoother dilatation and voltage increase....)

Here is my current recommendation: breakin_v2
(I didn't make any approximated calculations about it [too many unknown variables] but I think it is not only safer but a bit more efficient. -> requires less time)

-----

Of course, it can't help with the fluctuating white balance across the grayscale (these are perfect grays but the device colors will randomly fluctuate). So may be it is not a bad idea to calibrate the TV first (not perfectly but "more or less" very fast...) if you have something like "10 point gray balance".


What do you think?

I think the reason why theres more red slide then blue and green is b/c by plasmas very nature it produces blue and green very easily and deeply more so then red, I could be wrong about that though so someone correct me.