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Master Burn-In/IR/Break In Thread Part II: All Posts Here Only - Page 130

post #3871 of 5199
After running the white screen slides for about 60 hours over several nights, my "MENU" IR appears to be completely gone. This white screen trick really does work. I'll run it a few more nights just to be sure. Thank you PeterG. and mkaz527 for your help. I really appreciate it.
post #3872 of 5199
I emailed an editor from cnet to ask what to do about image retention/burn in and he said that 1) it's not much of an issue anymore and 2) nowadays I could just start using the TV normally from the get-go. I asked him about gaming, and he said that he has a plasma he games on, and that he hasn't had any issues with it. I then asked him what to do if IR occurs, and he said just to continue using the TV normally and it will go away eventually. All of this sounds promising to me. We have a Fujitsu plasma from 2005 and have never had an issue, and I don't think we did anything back then, but we don't game on that TV.

But after reading these threads about time-consuming slides and pixel stuff....this all sounds a bit too much. I mean I don't want to spend hours trying to pamper the TV just to get it to work. Maybe LEDs are the better choice....they're just more expensive.....I don't know what to do.
post #3873 of 5199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siryak View Post

I am a very avid gamer. NO image retention whatsoever. Don't worry about it!
I don't see how that's possible. I'm at the point where I'm going to wait until I have about 1,000 hours on the set before I attempt to game on it again. Even though I've had success reducing the amount of IR from Madden, after nearly 200 hours have passed since I played the game and, if I look hard enough, the logo is still there. I guess you got lucky!
post #3874 of 5199
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkaz527 View Post

I don't see how that's possible. I'm at the point where I'm going to wait until I have about 1,000 hours on the set before I attempt to game on it again. Even though I've had success reducing the amount of IR from Madden, after nearly 200 hours have passed since I played the game and, if I look hard enough, the logo is still there. I guess you got lucky!

Well, ****. Every time I see a post that makes me think, "Awesome. I can have the best PQ possible and still play a ton of games!" I immediately read another that makes me think, "Damn, LCD it is..."

I just don't want to risk ruining a new $1,000 ST50 just because I used it for playing games.
post #3875 of 5199
i'll chime in on what I've experienced and done so far. We've had our Panny GT30 55" since the start of the year and I did"baby" the set for the first 80+ hours. I just did normal programing, no logos, tickers and used the XBox 360 in it's audio mode displaying the visual effects as well.

But I did play Gears of War a lot and did get some IR from static displays on the screen which like all was really apparent in white or light color displays. I tried a few things nd nothing worked but found it was combination of several viweing uses and TV settingsand general common sense that has helped. Now when playing I do....

Custom or THX Modes Only...no game and no vivid. My Custom Mode is based on the calibration settings of Dave_O in the Panasonic Settings Topic

Change the Aspect Screen Size 1 & 2 everytime I play. It's not a lot pixel size but enough to help. If I play one night I'll have it at Size 1 and the next night Size 2. I make it a habit to change it the moment I turn on the 360.

Anytime I take a break, be it dinner, a snack or just going to the bathroom I always enable the Scrolling Bars.

Do normal viewing between gaming be it TV or BR's. Sometimes I'll turn it on and not even watch it.

Run the "White Slides" when not using the TV for several hours or even when away at work.

And of course enable Pixel Orbiter


It's been a long time since I played Gears of War and any traces of staic images are now gone. I've got small amount from playing Borderlands but nothing as bad as GOW gave me. I believe it's due to everything I'm doing listed above and just using common sense. I wouldn't trade the Plasma period even with the so-calle extra care involved. It's night & day over the LCD we had to replace and it was highly recommended model...Sony Z5100 52".
post #3876 of 5199
Man, just can't win!
So my EA Sports logo was all but gone. I was running a white screen for another 100 hours just to get rid of the final traces. Had about 12 hours to go when WHAMO! the SD card I had in my set stopped working and a bright white CANNOT READ FILE warning popped up on the screen for god knows how many hours. Out of the frying pan and into the fryer. This one is dead center of the screen and has that nice, dark look to it. What a disaster. Should've called it quits when I was ahead. Hoping now that I have 350 hours on the set this one won't persist as bad as the EA Sports logo but friends, my spirit is officially broken. I love plasma, but I just want to enjoy my set.
post #3877 of 5199
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkaz527 View Post

Man, just can't win!
So my EA Sports logo was all but gone. I was running a white screen for another 100 hours just to get rid of the final traces. Had about 12 hours to go when WHAMO! the SD card I had in my set stopped working and a bright white CANNOT READ FILE warning popped up on the screen for god knows how many hours. Out of the frying pan and into the fryer. This one is dead center of the screen and has that nice, dark look to it. What a disaster. Should've called it quits when I was ahead. Hoping now that I have 350 hours on the set this one won't persist as bad as the EA Sports logo but friends, my spirit is officially broken. I love plasma, but I just want to enjoy my set.

Wow that really sucks. Sorry to hear that. I wonder why the SD card stopped reading. I usually run the white screen while sleeping. But after reading this I don't think I'll be running the white screen anymore unless I can keep an eye on it. I would hope that your IR will go away quickly with 350 hours on it.
post #3878 of 5199
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkaz527 View Post

Man, just can't win!
So my EA Sports logo was all but gone. I was running a white screen for another 100 hours just to get rid of the final traces. Had about 12 hours to go when WHAMO! the SD card I had in my set stopped working and a bright white CANNOT READ FILE warning popped up on the screen for god knows how many hours. Out of the frying pan and into the fryer. This one is dead center of the screen and has that nice, dark look to it. What a disaster. Should've called it quits when I was ahead. Hoping now that I have 350 hours on the set this one won't persist as bad as the EA Sports logo but friends, my spirit is officially broken. I love plasma, but I just want to enjoy my set.

Man I feel for you. Do you see the IR when watching regular content or do you have to put on a blank screen to see it? The fact you got rid of the EA logo bodes well for getting rid of this new problem eventually. Hang in there.
post #3879 of 5199
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBoB View Post

Man I feel for you. Do you see the IR when watching regular content or do you have to put on a blank screen to see it? The fact you got rid of the EA logo bodes well for getting rid of this new problem eventually. Hang in there.

It was visible at first. I left it on an HD channel for the past 60 hours while I was out of town and it's definitely a lot better and very hard - if not impossible - to see while watching regular content. On an all white screen, it's still noticeable, but not nearly as bad as when it first happened. Hopefully running the white screen and a mix of content will reduce it even further. I feel like I've read a hundred articles in which they "tortured" the sets to try and burn them in, but then after running 24 hours of content it was gone. That has NEVER been my experience. And even though the EA SPORTS logo is mostly gone, there's no denying it's there when on a white screen.
post #3880 of 5199
Yesterday, I purchased a TC-50PU54 from Costco and flipped through the channels for a few minutes and then proceeded to break it in using Evangelos slides via a thumb drive.

I haven't stopped running the slides.

My settings are set to <50 (default) and the zoom is turned on and I have it on a slow (not the very slow) loop. Should I mess with the color and contrast passed the default settings? Turn on Cinema mode?

Thanks!
post #3881 of 5199
Hello!

Just bought a Samsung pn60e8000! This thread is epic in length! Can someone tell me if there's a consensus on break in?

Is there a break in period necessary? If so, what is the procedure? Should I not mess with the image setting during break in?

Thanks!
Edited by teamtrinity - 11/27/12 at 8:13am
post #3882 of 5199
Smart move! There is no reason for people to sit around babysitting their tv.
post #3883 of 5199
I have a TC-P50UT50 that has the MSNBC Logo Bar like another guy on this forum. I have downloaded a pixel jogger that I may try, but have been unable to find the slides people are speaking of. Any other advice on getting rid of this issue?
post #3884 of 5199
Quote:
Originally Posted by HBizzle26 View Post

I have a TC-P50UT50 that has the MSNBC Logo Bar like another guy on this forum. I have downloaded a pixel jogger that I may try, but have been unable to find the slides people are speaking of. Any other advice on getting rid of this issue?

The whitescreen slides, you can download it in the pixel jogger thread also as "whitescreenIR".
Advice see top of this page!
post #3885 of 5199
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBrad View Post

The whitescreen slides, you can download it in the pixel jogger thread also as "whitescreenIR".
Advice see top of this page!

Am I gonna find it if I do a search for whitescreenIR?
post #3886 of 5199
post #3887 of 5199
Thanks. Found it. Will test tonight.
post #3888 of 5199
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkaz527 View Post

Man, just can't win!
So my EA Sports logo was all but gone. I was running a white screen for another 100 hours just to get rid of the final traces. Had about 12 hours to go when WHAMO! the SD card I had in my set stopped working and a bright white CANNOT READ FILE warning popped up on the screen for god knows how many hours. Out of the frying pan and into the fryer. This one is dead center of the screen and has that nice, dark look to it. What a disaster. Should've called it quits when I was ahead. Hoping now that I have 350 hours on the set this one won't persist as bad as the EA Sports logo but friends, my spirit is officially broken. I love plasma, but I just want to enjoy my set.
You do have a PC with an Internet Connection and HDMI Port, don't quit because 1 of several input devices failed, improvise.
Use one of the many Youtube videos designed to reduce eliminate IR..
post #3889 of 5199
Common sense prevails and i am not even close to being concerned about IR and this is why, i already know plasma sets have a IR issue so i will not display anything for extended periods (more than 60 seconds) with black bars or a border or a format that won't fill the screen on 1 of the several picture modes available by using ther Format button, stop the problem at the source by obeying 1 simple rule rule: Use the Format Button to adjust the screen size so that the image fills the ENTIRE screen, if you need to set it on ZOOM then so be it, or just don't watch it, i found that problem with Crackle Movie Service but still not sure if it was because i was streaming from my PC, i will try a different method to stream Crackle and report back with my results.
post #3890 of 5199
My set has the B&W CN logo burned in which is quite visible on light backgrounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cartoon_Network_HD_logo.svg

The logo is so ridiculously high contrast that its almost impossible not to get burn in, or at least IR from it.

Someone mentioned inverting the channel logo and running that as a slide, has anyone had success doing this?

Or is a full white slide still the best bet to erase burn in?
Edited by rcll - 12/1/12 at 5:21pm
post #3891 of 5199
It is soooo hard to remember to notice the screen size on every single movie, today i caught myself watching something in Crackle and did not notice the border for at least 10 minutes, i noticed some ghosting on light colored scenes from the border, no worries man. Activate the scrolling bar and go to bed..
post #3892 of 5199
I've been blasting the screen with a full white slide in Vivid mode at 100% contrast and 100% brightness for 60 straight hours now, but this black&white CN logo is still quite visible.

The TV is definitely limiting brightness. When I exit the image viewer's fullscreen mode and shrink the slide the white gets much much brighter, when I go back to fullscreen it almost looks like a dull grey by comparison.

Is there a faster way to erase a specific logo burn in? I'm worried if I invert the logo in photoshop and its not exactly in the same spot of the screen it will just create a slightly aliased burn in of its own, like double vision burn in.
post #3893 of 5199
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcll View Post

I've been blasting the screen with a full white slide in Vivid mode at 100% contrast and 100% brightness for 60 straight hours now, but this black&white CN logo is still quite visible.
The TV is definitely limiting brightness. When I exit the image viewer's fullscreen mode and shrink the slide the white gets much much brighter, when I go back to fullscreen it almost looks like a dull grey by comparison.
Is there a faster way to erase a specific logo burn in? I'm worried if I invert the logo in photoshop and its not exactly in the same spot of the screen it will just create a slightly aliased burn in of its own, like double vision burn in.

I, too, have thought about the matter of number of hours of all white (severely brightness limited) as opposed to say the scrolling bar in the normal controls or service menu (not hit as much by ABL and in the service menu that scrolling bar is not time limited) but white only on screen for about 40% of the time. I would perhaps try using the scrolling bar in the service menu and see if that improves matters. Alternatively, there is an mpg that zoyd posted on high def junkies which is analogous to the scrolling bar. It is even less brightness limited than the standard scrolling bar (essentially white is on screen 1/3 of the time). It is under the thread Burn baby burn, ir..... I still believe that a white screen (be it all white or less brightness limited choices) is the way to go. There is a lot of peer-reviewed research on this whereas I see none for all the other techniques that you see posted.
post #3894 of 5199
Thanks PeterG. I tried to download the mpg zoyd posted but it seems that his link is dead. Do you think you could upload your copy somewhere so its available to us burned-in unfortunates?

I'm still going near 100 hours with the full white slide and still the logo is visible. It nearly seems permanent at this point but I'm willing to try everything.

Something I noticed is that the color temperature presets affect how visible this burn in appears. My set has Cool2-Cool1-Norm-Warm1-Warm2.
I don't know if its an optical illusion or not, but Cool2 seems to display the white slide the brightest and also hides the burn in the most, while Warm2 shows the burn in the most.

Unfortunately, if I exit the Vivid 100%-everything Cool2 torch mode, and switch to a normally calibrated THX watching mode, the burn in becomes much more visible again.

I'm still wondering about creating an inverse logo to fill in the burn in, if it can be done accurately and not make the situation worse.

The only thing that gives me hope for all this full white screen blasting is what you posted earlier in the thread, which seems to be some of the scant factual information regarding burn in.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/949107/master-burn-in-ir-break-in-thread-part-ii-all-posts-here-only/3840#post_22525484
3 - MgO Sputtering - High energy discharge in Plasma displays causes Magnesium Oxide to sputter and deposit onto the phosphor and adjacent pixels. The result is a long lasting ghost image that can take many days to remove. It can be seen as a slightly darker image on a full white screen. Ironically, a full white screen for many hours is the best course of action to resolve this issue as it normalized the deposition of MgO to all pixels (evens it out)
post #3895 of 5199
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcll View Post

Thanks PeterG. I tried to download the mpg zoyd posted but it seems that his link is dead. Do you think you could upload your copy somewhere so its available to us burned-in unfortunates?
)

The thread is still there and is entitled (to be complete) Re: Burn baby Burn, ir and the VT30 Panasonic. It is not on the first page anymore but the second. The post to read is #138 and is dated April 23, 2012. The attachment is still there and I downloaded it now. Once you extract the file rename the filetype m2t to mpg as the Panasonic cannot read as extensive a variety of formats as the Samsung.
post #3896 of 5199
Thanks. I see the attachment now after logging in to HDJ.

The public link he posted was dead (http://filesmelt.com/downloader/zoyds_washer-MPEG-4_.mp4_.zip)

I just uploaded them to box for quick access. All credit belongs to zoyd.
mp4: https://www.box.com/s/t6gecatlqmjurdiapo0s m2t: https://www.box.com/s/ye7bnkdipbc7tgms4a67

Have you used his mpg with any success? I'm going to try it now after doing an even 100 hours of the abl-limited white slide.
post #3897 of 5199
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcll View Post

Thanks. I see the attachment now after logging in to HDJ.
The public link he posted was dead (http://filesmelt.com/downloader/zoyds_washer-MPEG-4_.mp4_.zip)
I just uploaded them to box for quick access. All credit belongs to zoyd.
mp4: https://www.box.com/s/t6gecatlqmjurdiapo0s m2t: https://www.box.com/s/ye7bnkdipbc7tgms4a67
Have you used his mpg with any success? I'm going to try it now after doing an even 100 hours of the abl-limited white slide.

On Sunday I watched 6 hours of golf straight, the first 3 of them on the Golf Channel and the next 3 on NBC (which appends its own obnoxious opaque logo to the equally obnoxious opaque Golf Channel logo). I do not have a major problem with image retention but I knew I would have some that would be somewhat persistent. I decided I would wipe it with a white screen as opposed to just watching other channels which would wipe it with normal usage (but not as quickly). I had a full white screen on for about 15 minutes and that slightly diminished it. I then decided to use the zoyd mpg. The white is only on the screen for 1/3 of the time but the mpg is much less brightness limited. I went out for a bite to eat and came back in 2 hours and it was gone. Is it better to have full white (severely brightness limited) but the offending logo continuously on a white screen or rather having a much brighter (I feel over double the brightness but without a meter yet I am just guessing) white but only being "on" the offending logo for 1/3 of the time? I really don't know but I am suspecting that using the zoyd mpg may well be better. However, some form of white screen is what all the peer-reviewed studies used (several of which studies were partially written by Samsung plasma engineers).
post #3898 of 5199
Did you see anything in the studies that speaks to permanent burn in? Is there a point where white slides won't have any effect, and any explanation for why?

Could there be some service menu setting to disable the ABL so the wipe time can be cut down?

Guess I'll need to do 300 hours of this mpg to compare it to the 100 hours of solid ABL'd white slide. I'm starting to wonder what all this continuous high intensity white does to black levels, if anything.
post #3899 of 5199
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcll View Post

Did you see anything in the studies that speaks to permanent burn in? Is there a point where white slides won't have any effect, and any explanation for why?
Could there be some service menu setting to disable the ABL so the wipe time can be cut down?
Guess I'll need to do 300 hours of this mpg to compare it to the 100 hours of solid ABL'd white slide. I'm starting to wonder what all this continuous high intensity white does to black levels, if anything.

I am giving you a link to the full text of one study. This was from 2007 and has been cited several times. Not terribly long and if things get a bit heavy just skip over it. Anyhow this study I will quote a bit from (full text link below) was published in the IEEE transactions of plasma science).

"THE REALIZATION of high-quality plasma display panels
(PDPs) requires an urgent solution to the image sticking or
image retention problems induced in PDP cells after strong sus-
tain discharges have been repeatedly produced during a sustain
period [1]–[9]. Image retention means temporal image sticking
that is easily recoverable through minor treatment, whereas
image sticking is permanent and not recoverable even with
severe treatment."


As you see, they talk about Image Retention (as we know it) and that is "temporal image sticking" whereas "image sticking" (without a qualifier) is what we here term Burn-in. Now if you read the fix was 100 hours of full white but at a level much higher than we can generate with our TVs. However, what they threw at the tv to get the alleged permanent image sticking (and in the abstract they generated what they believed was permanent image sticking) was 500 hours continuously at an insanely high level (far higher levels than any current plasma can reach even with the smallest of windows). So while a full white screen can get nowhere near the levels what they used for the "fix" by the same token what they used to generate the alleged permanent image sticking is also at a far higher level attainable with our TVs (and this was essentially 3 weeks continuous of the same image (abuse which we could not remotely duplicate in terms of brightness level).

I don't know of anything in the service menu which would turn off ABL.

As regards having to run say zoyd's 3 times longer I don't know and don't think that there is a linear relationship between the level of white and the number of hours that your logo for example has to be displayed on the white background. I do know that the zoyd mpg seemed to generate more heat (despite the white being on only 1/3 of the screen at one time) compared to the full white so I would definitely watch the heat level. Because of this heat level I would monitor this early on and if you feel it is getting a bit too hot turn it off or just change to normal programming and see if that brings the temperature down to what you would think would be "reasonable". Unfortunately, in your case, it appears that there really are no easy solutions but don't give up just yet.

I am really sorry that you have this problem and I hope that you get this sorted out to a reasonable extent.

http://pde.knu.ac.kr/publication/recovery%20of%20boundary%20image%20sticking%20using%20aging%20discharge%20in%20AC%20plasma%20display%20panel.pdf

Edit: I need to find another study. Looking at this one again, this did "fix" the alleged permanent image sticking in the boundary area but not seemingly much happened in the region described as region A.
Edited by PeterG - 12/5/12 at 9:26pm
post #3900 of 5199
I just bought a Panasonic P55VT50. For the first few weeks I ran a dvd that cycled through shades of primary colors to break it in. I don't think I quite hit the 100 hour mark though. I never had problems with IR until last night after 5 or so hours of gaming, and I now have some of the game's on screen display left. I ran this dvd again overnight and already there's a huge improvement. Doing some research now, I see there are some other IR/break-in techniques. What's the general consensus as to the best choice?

What I've found:
  • Primary color cycles
  • "pixel jogger" i.e. alternate black/white rapidly
  • Panasonics built-in sweepin white bar

I have no experience with this and was wondering which people have found gives the best results. For anti-IR and/or break-in.

Thanks!
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