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Flat Screens: not ready for prime time ..yet!

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
After spending many hours reading through the different forums that discuss the various merits of flat screens I thought there might just be a chance that I could find one to actually want to take home.

So armed with the info I found, it was off to the local electronic shops such as Futureshop, Bestbuy, Sears, Costco, some small av specialized shops ..and even The Brick here in Canada.

The result after spending those many more hours comparing brands and models?..

Well, my conclusion is that no matter how primed this customer is for wanting that new flat panel tv hanging over his fireplace there just ain't anything on the market yet that is truly ready for prime time.

Many top line plasmas and lcd's come close. But the word "close" tends to mean relevant when talking the big bucks that the stores want these days. For the kinds of moolah the brands are asking, there's gotta be better than just "alright". For instance, Sony and Pioneer are said to be at the pinacle of their respective breeds but what I see are more of comprimise than anything. Not one of them performs to as advertised ..and especially with not so perfect media imput that most folks have at hand. For instance, stuff that's in SD format (even digital) is what is mostly still offered for tv entertainment, and that varies greatly in quality. Every one of those flat sets perform way below my old crt when it comes to SD. As for HD, well that opens up a peculiar Pandora's box of flaws. It seems no one set maker has a handle on all those niggly flaws that seem so apparent in all the big screens I've either seen or read about. What a shame.

On the upside, it can only serve to drive down the prices of the Sony's and Samsung's et al as folks start settling for the only option of mediocrity.

Like others I'll probably just keep monitoring the flat screen scene for now and look for that better value-for-money set that may come along. But I suspect it may be a year or two away.

End of Rant.
post #2 of 37
Technology evolves... unlike some people.
post #3 of 37
Just curious how big was your old crt set and how big were the flat panels you were looking at?
post #4 of 37
yeah, u're probably better off just staying with 19" or 27" crt. why bother w anything else. after all is said and done, its still just tv!

no sports on big screen, no movies in 2.39x1 oar, ....no big deal.

R.I.P.
post #5 of 37
MITSUBISHI will anounced LASER TV's in 2008, when LCD TV colors human eyes see
just 30% -LASER ones will be at least 70-90% and prices for 50" TV's will cost JUST $1000 !!!

You'll see: all LCD prices gona be DIRTY CHEAP.
post #6 of 37
Well, two things:

1) A big LCD panel is the wrong device if what you want to do is watch the same SD programming you've been watching on a CRT less than half the size. The purpose of a high-definition TV is to watch HDTV.

2) Over the fireplace is not where you want to put your TV! Put the big stuffed fish up there, and mount the TV down where you can see it without hurting your neck.
post #7 of 37
You got to be kidding me. Flat screens not ready for prime time? They're not perfect -- nothing is -- but they provide a high quality image, especially with HDTV, which is what most folks will be watching most of the time very soon (if not already), and they don't weigh 300 lbs. and stick out from the wall 3 feet. And the viewing angles are such that you can still see the image if you move more than a few degrees off axis, which is more than I can say for most CRT's I've seen.

Of course, everybody has different preferences and idiosyncracies, but it seems to me that the marketplace has determined that these sets are indeed ready for prime time. It's the CRT that can't make prime time anymore, although I understand that someone might prefer a CRT for their particular viewing habits based on their idiosyncracies, and I don't begrudge you or anyone that choice. But to suggest everyone else is settling for mediocrity with a flat panel or plasma is not a reasonable judgment, IMO.
post #8 of 37
If you're going to be watching mainly DVD/SDTV, get a 1024x768 42inch plasma{Pansonic or Samsung}.....42 is still a big screen with 16:9 AR, and it's size will protect you from the low quality of DVD/SDTV.

Anyone who thinks that a 68/76cm CRT can produce a better PQ or viewing experience than a good quality HDTV 42 plasma is talking crap....it doesn't really matter if the CRT has better black levels, cause the plasma's are good enough, and the size will more than make up for it, not to mention most CRT's can only display DVD res.

The jump from lowly NTSC 720X480 to 720p is MASSIVE, and DVD, 720p, 1080i will all look very good or great on a 42 plasma.
post #9 of 37
Quote:
A big LCD panel is the wrong device if what you want to do is watch the same SD programming you've been watching on a CRT less than half the size. The purpose of a high-definition TV is to watch HDTV.

Unfortunately most manufacturers have stopped production of CRTs, so that TV buyers have little choice other than an HD flat panel. I would much prefer to simply upgrade my old Trinitron with a new WEGA, but it's obvious I'm going to have to settle for an LCD display, which, like it or not, has inferior SD quality to a tube.

Believe me, I'm not some luddite opposed to HDTV, but at the same time, I don't want to be forced to repurchase all of my DVDs in HD just to get the same image quality I enjoyed before flat panels took over the marketplace.
post #10 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike999 View Post

Unfortunately most manufacturers have stopped production of CRTs, so that TV buyers have little choice other than an HD flat panel. I would much prefer to simply upgrade my old Trinitron with a new WEGA, but it's obvious I'm going to have to settle for an LCD display, which, like it or not, has inferior SD quality to a tube.

Believe me, I'm not some luddite opposed to HDTV, but at the same time, I don't want to be forced to repurchase all of my DVDs in HD just to get the same image quality I enjoyed before flat panels took over the marketplace.

SD DVD's look far, far better on my Vizio 42" than they did on my old 53" Sony XBR SD TV. You just need to make sure it is properly set-up. And my DVD player is nothing fancy, a cheap Philips Prog Scan hooked up using component cables.
SD Cable can be fairly bad, to very good, depending on the source.
IMHO of course.
post #11 of 37
everyone chill and just prepare for the transition to full HD in '09.

SD DVD's look fine on the newer LCD's w/ the source upconverting.

if you can't deal w/ making a decision, put it on hold till next year/fall .. i'm
sure there'll be some newer gee-whiz bango set for you 'not' to descide on &
further complicate you're life.
post #12 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksim View Post

... Every one of those flat sets perform way below my old crt when it comes to SD. ...

This is tricky one. I presume you are talking about the old-style CRT direct view (4:3, 480 lines), not the recent and quite rare 16:9 HD CRT direct-views. The HDTV, being both bigger and having far more image precision, shows up SD signal flaws that the CRT smooths over. But in my opinion that does not mean it does an inferior job. On the contrary, it maximizes the SD signal far better than an old-style CRT. But because the signal flaws are more noticable it may seem that way from looking at them in stores.
post #13 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike999 View Post

Believe me, I'm not some luddite opposed to HDTV, but at the same time, I don't want to be forced to repurchase all of my DVDs in HD just to get the same image quality I enjoyed before flat panels took over the marketplace.

I have a ridiculously large collection of DVDs and believe me, I was very worried that I would never want to watch them again.

I have a 42" Sharp Aquos and a Toshiba HD-A2 player, which upconverts DVDs as well as playing HD-DVDs, and my the image quality of standard DVDs is orders of magnitude better now. I don't mean an incremental difference, I mean a reveletory, stunning difference between what I see now and what I saw on my 36" Toshiba CRT viewing the same discs.

Remember first that 25% of the image data on your anamorphic DVDs was simply being thrown away during the process of scaling the widescreen image to your 4:3 set and adding the black bars. Then factor in that you were watching an interlaced display. When you take the same content and display it in progressive mode on a display with no visible scan lines, it's a whole different viewing experience.

And that's with standard DVDs. Watch a good HD-DVD, and the notion that HD is not "ready for prime time" will seem as ludicrous to you as it does to the rest of us.

I will, however, concede that the retail electronics industry is doing a fairly poor job of showing and selling HDTV in a way that properly demonstrates its strengths.
post #14 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel'son View Post

everyone chill and just prepare for the transition to full HD in '09.

There is no transition to full HD in 2009. And if there were to be such a thing, the quality of everyone's HD would go down as carriers compress everything more to fit the available bandwidth.
post #15 of 37
http://opencrs.cdt.org/document/RL34165

.. transition to digital (DTV) 2009.
post #16 of 37
Speaking of stuffed fish....

What is the purpose of coming onto a forum dedicated to AV and then into a section dedicated to flat panels just to declare that you are THE expert in the appropriateness and acceptability of the image on flat panel TVs and that they aren't ready for prime time.

Go troll somewhere else. Maybe go to a Mustang board and tell them how much better your Charger or Camaro is.
post #17 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel'son View Post

digital (DTV) 2009.

DTV is NOT HDTV.
post #18 of 37
And even if it was, the 2009 transition has nothing whatsoever to do with satellite and little if any to do with cable.
post #19 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksim View Post

As for HD, well that opens up a peculiar Pandora's box of flaws. It seems no one set maker has a handle on all those niggly flaws that seem so apparent in all the big screens I've either seen or read about. What a shame.

I think you are totally wrong on that one.....for the most part most flat panels handle a 1080i signal exceptionally well. I don't see most complaining about HD viewing at all. What are these HD defects?

On SD flat panels de-interlace the signal and fill the lines....which the human eye does a better job of filling the gaps on an interlaced signal. That is part of the problem indisplaying SD.

Just about all new programs are created in HD....so while you are living with SD, the rest of us are enjoying the much better displaying of images than the CRT. If you just want SD...stay with CRT.

Most are not like you and do not want to be saddled to SD quality.
post #20 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by playingWii View Post

DTV is NOT HDTV.

You are correct, but the main focus of the OT was how current flat panels handle SD content; I say its a mute point.

Unless you descide to remain w/ analog on a converter box, one should be focused on how well your prospective set will perform w/ HD (DTV) signals.

Some channels, including Sat/cable & OTA, will be broadcasting HD signals along w/ the rest.

My choice will be descided 'more' on how it handles the digital (HD) signals rather than the SD. And up-converted SD DVD's will look nicer also.
post #21 of 37
Where's the OP? Jacksim, you're comparing a lot of disparate things together. Sure CRTs make your SD and DVD viewing "good". That's only because the screen is smaller. Blowing that picture up almost twice it's size, and resizing to fit a Widescreen HDTV, even if the HDTV were to have a lower resolution, is going to look hideous. Besides, HDTVs can mimic quite well an SDTV. Just think about it? The resolution is higher, but it can easily act as a lower res. TV.

On the flaws you experience, you have to realize that LCD/Plasmas haven't been around as long as a CRT. Sure, give the LCD about 50 years to develop and refine it's technology like CRTs have. I think what has been accomplished is quite amazing. And those flaws are rather minute on a set by set basis. CRTs have their flaws, too, they have low res, big, heavy, can't be put near speakers, err... give off some radiation.

If you want to wait, there is some emerging technologies that are AMAZING. Like OLED, or Samsung's LED backlighting LCDs, maybe SED, and as someone mentioned Laser DLP.

I just want to know also, do you not use an LCD for a computer monitor?
post #22 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyk724 View Post

CRTs have their flaws, too, they have low res, big, heavy, can't be put near speakers, err... give off some radiation.

Also, you can watch a football game on a LCD in your family room on a Saturday afternoon and not have to make the room like a bat cave. When I had a CRT in my family room, I had to buy an outside drop down shade for the window that was in back of the couch and facing the screen and I had to lower it to cut the ambient light so I could see the picture well enough to enjoy the game.
post #23 of 37
I think the OP has given up on this thread. All he said was that the PQ of flat screens was disappointing given all the hype and prices demanded for "good" sets, and all of you have jumped on him for daring to say so. How about some examples of flat panels that look as good (bright/clear/etc) as an HD CRT? That's what I'm lookin' for... Nothing huge. 32" would be fine.
post #24 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksim View Post

no matter how primed this customer is for wanting that new flat panel tv hanging over his fireplace

You better do more research. Any TV over a fireplace is a hazard to the TV's health due to heat and possibly soot issues. (The later only applies to real wood fireplaces.)

Quote:


when talking the big bucks that the stores want these days.

Flat screens aren't that expensive considering. Seven years ago it would cost you ~$850 for a quality 32" tube (inflation adjusted). You can buy a 32" 768p LCD screen for that much now. Back in the 1950's, you were considered thilthy rich if you had the money to afford a 25" B&W. So what you are speaking is realitive.

Quote:


For instance, stuff that's in SD format (even digital) is what is mostly still offered for tv entertainment, and that varies greatly in quality. Every one of those flat sets perform way below my old crt when it comes to SD.

What do you expect? Blow up the picture size, and blow up the imperfections. LCD only excerbates this problem as it's much brighter. It's not rocket science. If you want an improved picture comperable to that of a 32" tube TV, get a 37"->42" plasma and be done with it.

Quote:


It seems no one set maker has a handle on all those niggly flaws that seem so apparent in all the big screens I've either seen or read about.

You mean the flaws like CRT's limited life phosphurs, limited size, excess weight, space considerations, limited brightness, terrible reflections, interlaced display flicker, and RF hum?

Quote:


On the upside, it can only serve to drive down the prices of the Sony's and Samsung's

Every year prices will come down on these sets. Unfortunately margins are currently razor thin. Soon they will reach parity, no matter how big a glass substrate plant they build, prices will level off.

I don't understand your post other than to complain you can't afford or pay out for a new TV. So your post contributes little to this forum other than to rant. If SD tube works for you, great! You don't have to get the latest and greatest.

But your statements are akin to me driving a 1910 model T Ford to work. Sure it's reliable. I don't have to worry about a starter failing. (There is none) Parts are plentiful, and it's cheap. But would you really want to in the long run?

~D
post #25 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikejwil View Post

All he said was that the PQ of flat screens was disappointing given all the hype and prices demanded for "good" sets, and all of you have jumped on him for daring to say so.

Uh, that's not quite what he said (e.g., "[n]ot one of them performs as advertised," "performs well below" [a CRT when it comes to SD], "[settling for] mediocrity"), and those who have "jumped on him" have bascially responded with comments that match the nature and tone of his initial post (with a few exceptions that might be a little out of line, but not completely unexpected given that this is a sub-forum to talk about LCD's.)
post #26 of 37
all i know is that out of all the crt televisions that i've bought over 35 years, (maybe 8). Only 1 or 2 ever needed repair. One got a power supply zapped via a lightning induced power surge.

I bought a lcd flat panel Samsung LTN325w new about 3 and a half years ago, and a "star-trek" Sammy 5685 dlp almost a year later.

The Dlp set has performed without a hitch. Unfortunately I can't say the same about the 32" LCD set. A little over a year ago the flat panel display began to show a small area of darkness in the upper right corner of the display. Now that small area has grown quite larger and spread so that it looks like dark cirrus clouds forming in various areas over the entire screen. i t almost looks like i'm looking through a pair of black nylon stockings in the affected areas.

this doesn't mean i've given up on lcd hdtvs or Samsung tvs in general. i am quite disappointed though. The short life of this particular display has left me crushed, heart-broken, and a tad bit angry that my hard earned $2600 combined with my choice of flat panel brought me here ranting.

I guess i just have to think long and hard about a future purchase in lcd technology. i refuse to part with this set until i exhaust everything "I" can do to fix it.
post #27 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustybutt View Post

A little over a year ago the flat panel display began to show a small area of darkness in the upper right corner of the display. Now that small area has grown quite larger and spread so that it looks like dark cirrus clouds forming in various areas over the entire screen. i t almost looks like i'm looking through a pair of black nylon stockings in the affected areas.

This could be 2 things:

1) The backlight tube is going bad at one end.

2) A few years back manufacturers were using organic filter coverings. These filter coverings did not react well to heat. If that corner was near a heat source (ie: transformer/hot bulb) then it's possible the filter was damaged due to heat.

What can you do? Sadly, nothing. Obtaining parts for older LCD screens is "difficult"

Repairing older tube TV's isn't worth it these days also. I once needed 4 capacitors, and 2 inductors on my Sony 32". The total bill was ~$650. I purchased the TV new for ~$725!

Sadly it's just the nature of the industry.

Side note: With the way prices are coming crashing down on these units, I'm worried manufacturers are cutting corners on things like QA and quality model proprietary components (power supplies) that will fail after 4->5 years. Suddenly that "cheap" LCD that's supposed to last 15 years just got 3x->4x's more expensive due to a shortend life.

Might I suggest a 5 year warranty extension on your next purchase if you want peace of mind.
post #28 of 37
Stick with CRTs then, my old 32" Sony WEGA Trinitron was a great set, but the HD on my XBR4 is amazing, and that's all I really watch, when I'm not watching HD, I play Call of Duty 4 or Halo 3, and then...once in a blue moon, I'll watch channel 45 (Court TV) whcih there is no HD channel for yet. If you are looking for a good flat panel for SD, and you're looking at big sets, you're down the wrong avenue. Check out 40" sets, th Sony S-Series does a great job with SD, GREAT job. shop around, to rant on something that you haven't FULLY researched is odd.
post #29 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustybutt View Post

this doesn't mean i've given up on lcd hdtvs or Samsung tvs in general.

That's probably wise. Some people have been in plane crashes. Doesn't mean it happens often or you should base your travel planes on the fact that someone you know was involved in a crash.

Seriously, any mass consumer electronics manufacturer has a certain percentage of failures. I have never had a failure with a single "bulb-based" set, but my $6,000 Pioneer Elite CRT developed spots on one of the guns and the circuit board began to fail due to bad soldering at the factory (which effected many of their sets). Do I blame this on CRT technology? No. It's just bad luck.
post #30 of 37
Quote:


Stick with CRTs then

With a couple of exceptions, CRTs over 19" are no longer being manufactured, which means that the next TV for most average consumers will be an LCD. My experience - and I know some here will disagree - is that LCDs are simply not as good for SD material as a high quality, flat screen, 16:9 capable CRT. If you are moving from the latter to the former, you are probably going to be sadly disappointed; i.e., unless you are willing to pay 4-5 times as much as you did for your tube TV.

Quote:


With the way prices are coming crashing down on these units, I'm worried manufacturers are cutting corners on things like QA and quality model proprietary components (power supplies) that will fail after 4->5 years.

Prices are coming down because LCDs are now the standard TV and manufacturers know average consumers aren't going to pay 4-5 times what they did for the same size CRT a couple of years ago. Whether or not cheaper prices means lower quality, I don't know, because many of the high end LCD models listed on this board seem to have as many flaws and problems as lower end models. I agree with the OP that neither LCD nor plasma are ready for prime time, and for the manufacturers to force flat panel technology on consumers was a mistake. They should've continued to produce 27-36" CRTs until the technology was better developed and cheaper to produce.
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