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Why does Blu-Ray look Better in Best buy and not on my TV? - Page 3

post #61 of 123
interesting.. I do not have a Sony XBR (though I do have a Sony Bravia 1080) so I do not have this "motion enhancer" mode, after checking my TV in "setup".

I guess that may be another piece of gear to long for. that said, I still love my TV and my Blu Ray S300..

I did mess with "vivid"... films looked pretty good in the vivid setting.. but football ?... yikes.. the grass is psychedelic.. at not at all natural.. back to standard or advanced settings for live football.
post #62 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbitrage000 View Post

Yeah its only the Sony's that can do #2 and you have to turn off motion enhancer as you mentioned. I think getting rid of 3:2 judder may be worth the purchase but I've yet to see the demo's of the motion enhancer feature so I really can't comment on it but it seems its just not natural or what the director intended.


are you sure the samsung xx71's can't also do 24fps (5:5)?
post #63 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post

are you sure the samsung xx71's can't also do 24fps (5:5)?

I'm basing my info off of this thread dedicated to the issue, but some tvs especially if they are brand new may do it but haven't been proven to do it yet. Here is the thread.... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=942145 .
post #64 of 123
Could it have something to do with the native resolution of that TV being 1024 x 768?
post #65 of 123
the movies dont pop as much on 720p, thats the real attraction of a 1080p set they have the hd pop. thats whats the attraction to the blu ray movies. same goes true with the hd dvd. the source and the canvas work together to make something great if either is lacking somewhat, it will look better than your dvd's but the wow factor isnt as great.
post #66 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by guruintraining View Post

the movies dont pop as much on 720p, thats the real attraction of a 1080p set they have the hd pop. thats whats the attraction to the blu ray movies. same goes true with the hd dvd. the source and the canvas work together to make something great if either is lacking somewhat, it will look better than your dvd's but the wow factor isnt as great.

WRONG.... not even close. Resolution is only a small art of the overall picture quality of any given display. "Pop" is achieved via contrast, black levels, and color accuracy.... ALL things that plasmas do VERY well, usually better than any LCD.

1080p has little if anything at all to do with Great PQ.
post #67 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by guruintraining View Post

the movies dont pop as much on 720p, thats the real attraction of a 1080p set they have the hd pop. thats whats the attraction to the blu ray movies. same goes true with the hd dvd. the source and the canvas work together to make something great if either is lacking somewhat, it will look better than your dvd's but the wow factor isnt as great.

LOL. I think you need some more guru training.
post #68 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by guruintraining View Post

the movies dont pop as much on 720p, thats the real attraction of a 1080p set they have the hd pop. thats whats the attraction to the blu ray movies. same goes true with the hd dvd. the source and the canvas work together to make something great if either is lacking somewhat, it will look better than your dvd's but the wow factor isnt as great.

Pop has nothing to do with 1080p. 720P has that HD pop.


Seriously...do you really own any HD equipment?
post #69 of 123
Ok, just got back from best buy and know exactly what people are talking about. It is definitely the 120hz that is making you go "Thats weird!!" The only thing I liked about the 120hz. was the outdoor scene of RV when it wasn't panning, as soon as it panned it was odd.

All the scenes that were shown of movies looked like souped up behind the scene shots, before they edited it and made it look like a movies supposed to look. I hated the way the 120hz made things look, it was fluid, but it took away the magic for movies. It was like watching home made versions of the movies that looked HD, made the actors look 2nd rate, I don't know but it made it look like they couldn't act as good?? Weird I know, but I just didn't like the affect of 120hz at all. The outdoor stuff looked really cool, but as soon as a person stepped into the scene it just all looked odd, made the actors seem like class b actors. Anyone else feel this way, or was it just me?? At 1st I was blown away at the 3d like affects, but no way could I watch a whole movie like that, it also made my brain feel weird.
post #70 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by venk View Post

One odd thing I noticed though, both the BR demo disc at Best Buy and the Batman HD DVD at Circuit City had this weird effect where they looked like they were being played back very slightly in fast forward. It wasn't extreme, but it was noticeable. Is that a side effect of the 120hz refresh rate?

Fry's had a similar setup running PotC and the 'trails' were driving me crazy, as if DNR was enabled. It made me glad that I have a plasma and not an LCD, figuring that all LCDs have that defect.

It looked beautiful, but even if I could afford it I wouldn't buy it.
post #71 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by crootnik View Post

agreed. the POTC demo on the Sony XBR TV in Best Buy is what sold me on Blu Ray. I bought it that instant. Also the poker scene in Casino Royale (which I saw at Circuit City). It looked as if I was seeing the event take place at that moment. Live time... the lighting and contrast was extraordinary. The light on the palm trees in POTC looked absolutely real.. as if I was right there.

I have a 1080 Bravia here at home (not XBR) and it looks wonderful, but nuttin like it did in the store. I attributed the difference to the fact that my TV is not a Sony XBR. I was thinking that if that was the dif, then I would move this television in the bedroom and get a Sony Bravia XBR LCD for my living room.


I sometimes thing the Same I have the 46W3000, and I think it looks better in the store sometimes, but the stores run these sets in Torch Mode, with all the settings Jacked up to achieve the effect, colors are often off, but under the unnatural lighting it looks OK. You go home where you've teaked your set, reduced the torch mode, make the colors natural and not exagerated, and now you think you getting less of a picture. I can guarantee while the BB Set looks good for 20 minutes you probably would get a headache looking at a full movie on it. It's almost like Playing Pac Man at Home vs in an Arcade. In the Arcade the 5 min you play is thrilling, but at home you don't see the attraction.
post #72 of 123
Ok, so for those of you who have seen the POTC demo at best buy on that Bravia, is it the 120Hz that gives it that "look" of not being film or the image enhancing stuff built into the TV? The image quality was wowing a lot of people. Everyone stopped what they were doing and their eyes were glued to the screen. Some people mentioned that it looked amazing but they weren't sure if they liked it. To me it looked nothing like film. Probably something I could get used to since the image quality was that good. Anyway, for those of you that seen this setup and have experience with this, can you please clarify if it was the 120Hz refresh rate or was it something with the enhancing functions of the TV? What about the BD itself? Would any BD look like that on the same TV?
post #73 of 123
I've had my HD setup for about 6 weeks now. It is a 120hz set (5271). and I can tell you I NEVER saw a demo that looked as good in the store as it did after I set it up in my home.

I generally use AMP on low, but on I'll put in on high once in a while to see what happens. It is an awesome picture, but on High it will introduce the stuttering artifact effect. But it isi important to understand that even on High, those artifacts don't happen constantly. It doesn't turn the show into some kind of bad PC flash movie.

Anyway, just get one and try it out before passing judgment based on store demo material.
post #74 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenFly View Post

I've had my HD setup for about 6 weeks now. It is a 120hz set (5271). and I can tell you I NEVER saw a demo that looked as good in the store as it did after I set it up in my home.

I generally use AMP on low, but on I'll put in on high once in a while to see what happens. It is an awesome picture, but on High it will introduce the stuttering artifact effect. But it isi important to understand that even on High, those artifacts don't happen constantly. It doesn't turn the show into some kind of bad PC flash movie.

Anyway, just get one and try it out before passing judgment based on store demo material.

Well the point is that I'm not going to rush out and buy something and hope it looks like the store demo when I get it home. I'm doing research first to see what was so special about that demo setup. From what I gathered in the other forums its due to the motion enhancer on the Sony TV. I was curious about that particular effect because I wasn't sure if I liked it or not.
post #75 of 123
From what I've read on the LCD forum (here at AVS), the Samsung model you saw (x71) has an Advanced Motion Plus (AMP) technology which enables high def dvd's (both kinds) to look more "realistic". I noticed the same thing when viewing a Pirates movie at my own BB. It literally looks like you could reach out and touch the characters' faces! However, this set also has problems with the AMP feature (ghosting, etc.), and according to other members who own this set, Samsung's response has been to turn off the AMP feature (nice response!). They also had a 60 or 70" Sharp LCD playing the Transformers HD-DVD and it looked fabulous with no ghosting or other image problems of any kind. For some reason I tend to like the "brighter" image of LCD's over plasmas. If they ever get the kinks worked out of these 120hz LCD panels, I'll likely buy one of those next (I currently own a 42" 600U Panasonic plasma which I love). But, it will be hard for me to pass up a Pioneer Elite Kuro!
post #76 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by exostrata View Post

Sorry for the long title chaps but I could use some of your input seeing as how I'm slowing dipping my feet into the HD Waters. I currenly own a 42inch Panasonic Plasma 42px60U and a Ps3. My question is this; I recently walked into Best Buy and found myself in front of one of the Blu Ray kiosk that was previewing the Prestige. I was immediately stunned. The picture was so sharp, the actors seemed like they were literally going to pop out of the television. Yet, I don't re-call any of my Blu ray titles (all whopping five) looking as stunning (Titles are Black Hawk Down, the Descent, Happy Feet, Casino Royale, and Crank). Am i doing something wrong? Maybe my set needs to be calibrated using Avia? I dunno, any input would be appreciated.

Also, as a side note I'm sorry if this doesn't belong here. I really didn't know if this fell under HDTV, Displays, or the Blu Ray area.

I'm betting your looking at a 1080p display at the store and your set is only 720p
your set only displays 1/2 the pixels others will argue a 42 inch display does not benefit from 1080p but I can tell the difference plus I bet you have not calibrated your set properly.
post #77 of 123
I have looked into this effect and no store is running a "special soupped up" demo disc, they are running the actual movies or a disc with short sections of movies. The bottom line if the stores are using a samsung or sony LCD with the motion enhancer or anti judder turned up you will get this "3D or soap opera video" effect. with this features turned off the display will look like any of the other LCD sets without the 120 HZ and the anti judder or motion enhancing feature.

I admit that is neat looking, but after a while you realise that the actual movie is not shown like this on movie theater screens. Most people that have these sets end up turning these enhancements down or completly off.
post #78 of 123
RJKINGS = Exactly.

I know two people that have these 120hz displays and neither one likes the effect.

They liked them in the store, running the demo thingie. ( I am still not sure there isn't some hanky panky going on there though)
post #79 of 123
it does really catch your attention when walking by. the first time i saw it i walked over and ejected the disc to make sure it was the actual PoTC disk and not a demo. then i realized it was the motion enhancement feature. the more i stood there and watched it, the less i liked it.
post #80 of 123
I viewed one of these 120hz sets at BB yesterday. At first I thought it may be a souped up demo disc. I had them put in a normal BR disc and it had the same affect, but to a lesser degree. The demo disc they used IS a bit souped up, but the actual affect is still there when viewing normal BR discs, just to a bit lesser degree. Not sure if I liked the affect or not. At first it was very impressive, but it seemed to be in fast motion as well which was very unatural. If they can perfect this in the next few generations it could be awesome.
post #81 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axiom Divine View Post

I saw a setup with Spiderman 3 playing at Best Buy, and it looked really strange. It was extremely crisp and clear, but it had a look to it that was completely different than on my display. My wife said it looked like a soap opera...that's probably the best description I can think of.

This is what happens to an over-processed film image (grain completely removed, excessive sharpening, et al.) in HD -- it takes on a "videotaped" appearance (soap operas are taped, not filmed). Pearl Harbor suffers from this -- I was shocked at how "videotaped" that movie looks the first time I saw it on BD.
post #82 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I viewed one of these 120hz sets at BB yesterday. At first I thought it may be a souped up demo disc. I had them put in a normal BR disc and it had the same affect, but to a lesser degree. The demo disc they used IS a bit souped up, but the actual affect is still there when viewing normal BR discs, just to a bit lesser degree. Not sure if I liked the affect or not. At first it was very impressive, but it seemed to be in fast motion as well which was very unatural. If they can perfect this in the next few generations it could be awesome.

I as well work at bestbuy and I actually bought a LNT4669f and a BDP-1200 and when the tv is updated in regards to firmware and a bd is played the effect is actually very stunning and realistic. I try my best to ensure our reps are making any tv's standing out over the other i.e. shop mode vs home and other demo items common to tv's
post #83 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by gojou View Post

This is what happens to an over-processed film image (grain completely removed, excessive sharpening, et al.) in HD -- it takes on a "videotaped" appearance

While that may play into it a little bit, you really need to go to the store and see these particular TVs doing their party trick to understand. The effect being discussed is way, way beyond anything you can achieve in the editing room. Put in any live-action movie you want and you'll probably be able to see it immediately; I was in BB the other day showing it to a friend and even commercials for (film-based) TV shows were very obviously affected.
post #84 of 123
One perk of the motion processing I noticed whilst at CC (they were showing a LotR movie on TNT HD), is when a commercial came up which had a slow motion sequence, the motion processing made it a seamlessly smooth event (no sign of the typical "cheap" slo-mo effect which is just showing frames longer in something that was captured in realtime at a standard framerate). It doesn't work all of the time, though, since you can see in another commercial that employed animation that mimicked the effect of a stop-motion animation production, the stuttery motion rendition was still apparent.

The aggressively compressed rendition of LotR in broadcast HD was also interesting to watch in the vein of how compression artifacts interact with the motion processing. I would describe it as the chaotic motion pattern of compression artifacts giving the motion processing a messy time in determining what is the real motion to enhance and what is just poor compression. It's like the motion processing would locally distort the image on/near the edge of a high-contrast object that is in motion against a stationary background. It was strangely similar to the effect used in the Matrix when you see Neo distorting the ground near him to push-off to do his "Superman" thing.

Of course, I don't blame this as a flaw in the motion processing. The indeterminant nature of compression artifacts is clearly an issue for this phenomenon, if not just for the sake of optimal pq- "garbage in, garbage out". The motion processing is just trying to do its best given the material it is fed.
post #85 of 123
I can't imagine why any videophile would enjoy the 120Hz "feature." The processing takes away all of the qualities of film and leaves you with a distinctly HD video-like picture that is not what the director intended.

It is eye-catching at first....in much the same way as a freeway pileup.
post #86 of 123
It's certainly not for the "film purist" audience (and mind you, the director never intended you to view his work on a relatively small tv screen with limited vga-caliber color gamut and contrast, either). However, the "film purist" does not represent the sole preference of all who are into home video (other people may want want other things). I think mostly it is an acknowledgment that the arcane film standards leave a lot to be desired when it comes to smooth/natural motion rendition. Naturally, the alternative has not been perfected, but I believe it is a step in the right direction.

We've gotten to the point where the stunted motion of 24 fps film seems "normal" and genuinely smooth motion of 60+ Hz type of material (processed or otherwise) looks "sped up". I think a great deal of this perception comes from what our minds have been trained to perceive, rather than a fundamental flaw or error introduced by motion processing (this is not to say the current encarnations are doing it perfectly, though). By some mechanism of perception, we interpret stuttery motion as a "slowing" effect and perfectly smooth motion as a "speeding" effect. The one that looks the "correct speed" is usually the one that has formed a majority of our viewing experiences, while the one that looks "strange" is the one we see less frequently, even though the speed is exactly the same in either format.
post #87 of 123
Guys I have the answer to the question about the BB blu-ray demo that looks so clear. It is the 120hz refresh rate on the Sony KDL-40XBR5 as well as the Samsung LN-T4071F or probably any model that has the 120hz refresh rate. I own a Sharp LC-52D92U. BB happened to have my same model hooked with a samsung blu-ray. I had the manager take the disc out of the sony setup and put it on the 52" sharp with samsung blu-ray and the clip from pirates of the carribbean looked exactly the same as my personal copy of the movie. I then had him put it in the samsung player that was hooked to the Samsung LN-T4071F and it had the same awesome clarity as the sony setup. My lcd has 120hz frame rate conversion which is just a bunch of B.S. It is not the same as a true 120hz refresh rate. SO the story is, if you want your Blu-ray movies to look like they do on the demo you need to buy another lcd flat panel with a true 120hz refresh rate.
post #88 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by cableguy31909 View Post

Guys I have the answer to the question about the BB blu-ray demo that looks so clear. It is the 120hz refresh rate on the Sony KDL-40XBR5 as well as the Samsung LN-T4071F or probably any model that has the 120hz refresh rate.

To be clear: as mentioned above and discussed over here, it's not the "120Hz" that does that. It's the motion enhancement, which is an additional feature that generates artificial frames between the actual frames. For example you can run the Sony in 120Hz mode without the motion enhancer and it will simply give judder-free playback ("5:5 pulldown") without the video-camera-like appearance.

The equivalent motion enhancement feature from Sharp is called "Double-Speed".
post #89 of 123
This is really weird because i wasn't stunned by BD at all at Fry's, CC or BB. It wasn't until i saw POTC on my PS3 + 50'' Panny that i fell in love And it's not even calibrated.
post #90 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingcarcas View Post

This is really weird because i wasn't stunned by BD at all at Fry's, CC or BB. It wasn't until i saw POTC on my PS3 + 50'' Panny that i fell in love And it's not even calibrated.

The crazy picture quality this thread is talking about occurs only on very specific TV models and only if the store has the TV's motion enhancer turned on. it's not really anything to do with BD, but it can seem that way because the XBR4 is one of the few models that has the feature and if the store has a dedicated BD display area then that's probably the set they're using for it.

Every time I go to the local Best Buy, though, it's a gamble whether any of the TVs will have motion enhancement enabled and even when it's turned on they usually just have a crappy demo loop running that doesn't have much filmed content. In one case I went to BB specifically to see the XBR4's motion enhancer, and it took two trips plus consulting some documentation and discussions here to figure out how to get it switched on properly. When I finally did get it activated (and had a clerk replace the loop with a movie) it had a very immediate effect; literally within seconds even another employee was standing there staring and pointing at it in disbelief.

The point being, if you haven't had a "WTF!" reaction while looking over sets in the store, then you probably haven't seen one of these sets in action. It's really, really noticable.
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