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Black Cat Theater (Now going BIG!) - Page 5

post #121 of 171
Thread Starter 
Right now I'm trying to decide if we're going to have to lower the chair rail a couple inches. I have a separate top-level thread discussing it. It's almost a good thing BIG was in Ohio, as it gives time to suss this out..,

In other news, Mrs. Morphy and I went to some carpet stores to see what options are out there. This frustrates me to no end as, seeing how so many struggle with carpet selection, we decided on carpet first, and then ordered the fabric to match, but now we're in the same predicament as countless others - ugh!

We found some multi-colored Friezes that matched our fabric selections pretty well. But before bringing home samples, we want to get the ceiling and a wall section done. It should be easier to judge with the correct lighting and a larger FOV to consider. The Bitterman carpet is not ruled out yet, we just want to see if we can find something synthetic that we're also happy with.

Mrs. M. and I are going to watch Hunger Games at the local IMAX theater tonight - woohoo!
post #122 of 171
It is hard to believe that between Morph1c and I we haven't posted any updates to this thread. I think I have at least three chapters to add.

First the CHERRY

Morph and the design committee decided that the trim work and columns should be cherry. So we found some at Smoot lumber, A bunch of cherry veneer plywood and some real stuff and we went to work making molding and columns:

























post #123 of 171
The BIG BOX

so we had this air return that really sucked, and it sucked really loud.



So we formulated a plan



we cut it out and cut open the ceiling and built a huge air plenum/duct muffler


















Basically we took a 6 inch duct to 8 inches, stuck it into the middle of a 14 ft long Linacoustic lined box and them cut in two 12 x12 inch return vents at the ends of the box. The box hangs on clips and channel and does not touch the ceiling joists.
post #124 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

It is hard to believe that between Morph1c and I we haven't posted any updates to this thread. I think I have at least three chapters to add.

I guess we've just been too focused getting stuff done
post #125 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Basically we took a 6 inch duct to 8 inches, stuck it into the middle of a 14 ft long Linacoustic lined box and them cut in two 12 x12 inch return vents at the ends of the box. The box hangs on clips and channel and does not touch the ceiling joists.

The important thing is that all the work paid off - the new return is very quiet!

While it completely sucked taking down a perfectly good ceiling, it would've sucked more to always feel like I was on the Starship Enterprise. I'm very happy to have done this.
post #126 of 171
Are you still using the same fan you chose originally or did you end up changing that too? Was the noise mostly from the vents or was there some fan noise you had to deal with as well?
post #127 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozziegt View Post

Are you still using the same fan you chose originally or did you end up changing that too? Was the noise mostly from the vents or was there some fan noise you had to deal with as well?

Still using the same fan - the whisperline 340. Actually, I now have two of them - one pushing air in on the supply line and another pulling air out on the return line. It's still 340 CFM, which is more than enough air exchanges for the size of my theater, but I had to overcome the "head" (static pressure) in the supply line due to the flex duct twisting and turning. I probably wouldn't have needed the extra fan if my supply line was 12".

The noise was from the vents. 340 CFM thru a single 6" duct was a lot of air-velocity (~1700 FPM). This new configuration replaces the single 6" with the equivalent of two 12" ducts, which drops the air-velocity down to ~215 FPM (I think). For details, see my other thread "How do room treatments affect air-turbulence noise?"

Despite their name, the Whisperline fans make a noticeable amount of noise. Mine are located outside the theater, such that they're not audible with the door closed. Still, they're a bit obnoxious outside the theater and so I plan to suspend them from bungie cords, surround them with insulation, and patch the holes in the ceiling where they are (currently, their noise is directly exposed to the space below them)

PM me if you want to come over for a listen...
post #128 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

So we formulated a plan


BIGmouthinDC in his early days of home theater building, calculating how many staples it will take to complete the Arbor Oak Cinema

post #129 of 171
I assumed you used this article as your starting point? Where do you think it fell short?
post #130 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozziegt View Post

I assumed you used this article as your starting point? Where do you think it fell short?

Yeap, in fact, I think I referenced that very article near the beginning of this thread. Looking at it again, I think it "falls short" in this paragraph:

Quote:


A typical room will need a 6ยดยด supply and comparable return. These ducts are a large cross section for sound to freely escape, regardless of the direction of airflow.

Because a single 6" supply and a single 6" return will each have too much FPM to be quiet while accommodating the ACH (air change per hour) needs for a 15'x21' room. See http://www.bravoav.com/articles/ht_hvac.pdf.

ACH = (CFM*60)/volume, thus CFM=(ACH*volume)/60. From the article, 6 ACH is recommended. Thus, CFM = (6*volume)/60 = volume/10. My room's volume is ~300 sq ft., so I need 300 CFM. 340 CFM is actually more than I need (6.8 ACH), but that was the next fan-size up gave me...

Remember, we want FPM to be close to 250, to be quiet. FPM = CFM / area (sq-ft). So, area = CFM/FPM = 340/240 = 1.42 sq ft. Note that two 12" ducts = 1.57 sq ft (room to spare), whereas two 8" ducts is only 0.7 sq ft. (not enough!)

BTW, I didn't know any of this until *after* hearing the air-turbulence (Starship Enterprise). I naively thought that a single 6" would be fine since the fan itself is 6" and, to a lesser extent, because Ted's article suggested that 6" was "typical". Oh well, life is full of learning experiences.
post #131 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morph1c View Post

ACH = (CFM*60)/volume, thus CFM=(ACH*volume)/60. From the article, 6 ACH is recommended. Thus, CFM = (6*volume)/60 = volume/10. My room's volume is ~300 sq ft., so I need 300 CFM. 340 CFM is actually more than I need (6.8 ACH), but that was the next fan-size up gave me...

Remember, we want FPM to be close to 250, to be quiet. FPM = CFM / area (sq-ft). So, area = CFM/FPM = 340/240 = 1.42 sq ft. Note that two 12" ducts = 1.57 sq ft (room to spare), whereas two 8" ducts is only 0.7 sq ft. (not enough!)

Isn't your volume going to be sq ft * ceiling height? So if you had 8' ceilings it would be 15x21x8 = 2520 cubic ft

6 exchanges per hour is 15,120 cubic ft / hr, which is 252 CFM.

edit: Ahh, so you have 10' ceilings, which is why you divided the volume by 10.
post #132 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozziegt View Post


Isn't your volume going to be sq ft * ceiling height? So if you had 8' ceilings it would be 15x21x8 = 2520 cubic ft

Sorry, I dropped a '0' there, it was suppose to be 3000 sq ft. It's just an estimate, as I gain some from the bump-out behind the screen...
post #133 of 171
The division by 10 is used because it is the same as multiplying by 6 (6 changes per hour) and then dividing by 60 (to convert CF/hr to CF/min).
post #134 of 171
I didn't have time this morning to post the 3rd update chapter. Here it is. This is about the new TOYS

Mark Halflick of AVS hooked Morph up with some goodies.

We had to test them (Obviously)
















For the record I've put together a few SMX screens and now a SeymourAV screen. The Seymour grommet fabric attachment is a lot easier, almost idiot proof. Just be sure you measure the diagonals of the frame and make sure it is square before attaching the fabric. This has also been an issue with SMX screens. If the measurements don't match loosen the corner brackets and make the screen square, tighten the brackets.

Enough play time, we wrapped it all back up and put in the "clean" room.

post #135 of 171
Appreciating the fact that reworking the duct has satisfied you guys, so I'm sure it's much better, any chance of a new SPL graph showing the changes?
post #136 of 171
Probably this weekend. Things are going to happen fast, carpet tomorrow, acoustic treatments on the walls then some measurements. We will stick one under the vent to compare to the original measurement.
post #137 of 171
How did the carpet go?
post #138 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

How did the carpet go?

This pic doesn't do justice - in person, the carpet is much more matchy-matchy with both the "straw" and "ochre" fabrics. The carpet has a very deep/rich tone, which pulls hard on the stained wood (see light tray).


I decided not to do the Bitterman/Sierrra after all, because it didn't feel soft, there was a potential for a pattern clash, and because it was 100% wool. This carpet is silky/plush, has no pattern, is synthetic, and has a life-time stain-removal guarantee. The field-color of this carpet is the same as the Bitterman/Sierrra, it only lacks the red-pattern... So now the big question is, how well my red-fabric chairs will look in this room? - with nothing to tie into, they have to stand on their own...
post #139 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morph1c View Post

So now the big question is, how well my red-fabric chairs will look in this room? - with nothing to tie into, they have to stand on their own...

I have the EXACT same chairs and I stopped just before GOM b/c I couldn't find a good fabric for the walls. Like you said .. they kind of have to stand on their own. I wish I had gone with a different color on the chairs for that reason... Great looking room so far. You are getting close.
post #140 of 171
I saw the thread asking for calibration advice on this room and I also saw that speakers were installed. I searched through these pages but couldn't find what equipment you decided to go with except for the JVC RS-45 and the Seymour screen. What equipment did you decide to go with?
post #141 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleyc View Post

I have the EXACT same chairs and I stopped just before GOM b/c I couldn't find a good fabric for the walls. Like you said .. they kind of have to stand on their own. I wish I had gone with a different color on the chairs for that reason... Great looking room so far. You are getting close.

The chairs aren't tying in much yet, but I'm optimistic that the fabric and molding with do the trick. Should look something like this when done:

post #142 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVoth View Post

I saw the thread asking for calibration advice on this room and I also saw that speakers were installed. I searched through these pages but couldn't find what equipment you decided to go with except for the JVC RS-45 and the Seymour screen. What equipment did you decide to go with?

I got some Triad Silver OnWall surrounds and am repurposing my M&K 850s for the LCR. Sadly, my matching M&K 650s are sitting this one out since I felt that I needed bipoles. Also, it helps that the Triads are half the depth, so they don't stick out as much for people getting to/from the back row.
post #143 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morph1c View Post

The chairs aren't tying in much yet, but I'm optimistic that the fabric and molding with do the trick. Should look something like this when done:


Very nice ... I never thought of playing off the molding. Really like what you guys have done with the column design.
post #144 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morph1c View Post


I got some Triad Silver OnWall surrounds and am repurposing my M&K 850s for the LCR. Sadly, my matching M&K 650s are sitting this one out since I felt that I needed bipoles. Also, it helps that the Triads are half the depth, so they don't stick out as much for people getting to/from the back row.

I love my M&K 750 system. I'll be interested to hear from you how the Triads sound with the M&K's. What about subs, pre amp, amps, and all the other good stuff?
post #145 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVoth View Post


I love my M&K 750 system. I'll be interested to hear from you how the Triads sound with the M&K's. What about subs, pre amp, amps, and all the other good stuff?


The 850s are the wood-veneered version of the 750s, the drivers are identical. So far I don't notice any discolorizations between the M&K LCRs and the Triad surrounds, but I've yet to sit for a critical listening. I only just now configured my amp to know about each speakers distance and equalized their outputs so the sound the same for my prime listening positions (middle of the front row)

I've got a M&K MX-150. I might get another if there isn't enough bass in the room. We'll see...

I have a Marantz SR9200 receiver. I don't yet have a strong reason to upgrade it. Audussey would be nice, but I'll wait. One small issue is that all my speakers are currently 4-ohm whereas the SR9200 is 6-ohm. That said, I've read that the speakers are more like 6-ohm with an 80-Hz crossover, which I'm doing. I've also read reports from others running the SR9200 with 4-ohms and no issues. I'm going to watch my levels for a little while...
post #146 of 171
Thread Starter 
So my wife and I watched our first movie last night - a DVD from Netflix. The good news is that we watched the movie and it beat the heck out of watching on a computer screen (what we've been doing for the last few years). The bad news is that the PJ's controls became unresponsive as soon as the movie started (I wanted to zoom the 4:3 image a little). After the movie, we watched a little of the Blu-Ray Demo Disc and, again, I couldn't change the lens CIH. Giving up, I discovered that I couldn't even turn the PJ off - not via the remote or the button on the back on the PJ. I decided to leave it running all night and tackle it in the morning. So, this morning, after reading what other people have done, I unplugged it and let it cool done. Now it's functioning correctly again, which is a relief, but I'm very disappointed it happened and now am apprehensive about using it. I wonder if something on the DVD could've caused it, but I'm too scared to play the movie again, so we'll never know...
post #147 of 171
Did you finish? Would love to see it all together.
post #148 of 171
We are going to need to add a corollary to the old saying never hang your projector and screen before the room is done, Well the projector and screen is hung, but now armed with REW room measurement tools the audio and acoustical treatment side of the room is getting scrutiny and analysis before the fabric finishes and trim molding go up. So the corollary is never start actually measuring your rooms audio performance if you are in a hurry to finish the room.

I last saw Morph1c a couple of weeks ago when we picked up some sheets of Baltic birch, cut them in my shop and he was going to work on building a THT sub.
post #149 of 171
I'd like to see more pictures of how the electrical box cover came together and mounting scheme. I'm assuming that box cover will then be covered with a finished acoustical panel?
post #150 of 171
Thread Starter 
I think BIG's corollary applies, while I have watched a few things, the biggest delay by far is getting the sound where I want it before buttoning it up (i.e. stapling fabric in place). In case you haven't seen it already, this thread catalogs the testing we've done so far: We Built it, We've measured it, HELP US TWEAK IT - acoustics of the BLACK CAT. One update to that thread, I've now decided to only build one THT sub, at least for now, as I understand that one will completely own a room the size of mine.

Regarding the THT build, I installed panel #2 of the THT sub this morning. It's not an easy panel to get tight into the corner and now I have a hairline crack there. I think I'll just caulk the joint with PL like others have done...

In other news, I was able to pick up enough black FR701 GOM from fellow AVS member Snipe4Real to cover the panel under the screen. I was originally planning to use the Network/Ochre GOM there, but I think black/black might look better under the screen and, more importantly, the open weave pattern will provide a place for the air supply behind the screento vent out, which seems better than better using the screen as a filter eek.gif
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