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Black Cat Theater (Now going BIG!) - Page 4

post #91 of 171
Very nice, I like it what you have done.
post #92 of 171
Thread Starter 
So BIG sends me a PM that our carpet selection might not be good in a basement environment due to it being 100% wool with a jute backing. Apparently, natural materials are discouraged because of their ability to retain moisture and promote mold growth.

This is terribly frustrating as we started this adventure with the carpet selection, which does a wonderful job of being primarily beige while tying-in the red in the chairs. It's difficult to let go, so I have to ask, is there anything that can be done? Our basement is dry. If the concern is random flood/leak, we can live with that. If the concern is moisture/vapor wicking through the concrete pad, is a rubber pad not enough? Would a product like Dricore be sufficient? Is there any issue at all with the carpet on the riser/stage?

Looking at the other angle, finding another carpet might be hard. Before finding this carpet, we had spent 2-3 weeks searching for a primarily-beige carpet with red accents (to tie in our chairs) and just couldn't find anything we liked. Our best option now might be to go with a nearly solid color carpet with little pattern, so as to not clash with the Network Ochre fabric, which we'd then want even more, as it would be the only pattern left. A frieze might be best.

As the room has three main colors, it makes sense to consider the carpet being one of them. Here are the options:












Have a favorite? - or should we try to make the original carpet selection work?

Thanks!
post #93 of 171
If you need to go alternative, my vote is then to go dark, so #3.
post #94 of 171
I would think a product like dricore (or a roll of platon with sheets of ply tapconned down) would be sufficient to eliminate the moisture issue. It would also give you a warmer feeling floor.
post #95 of 171
Quote:
Our basement is dry. If the concern is random flood/leak, we can live with that. If the concern is moisture/vapor wicking through the concrete pad, is a rubber pad not enough? Would a product like Dricore be sufficient?

I'm just sayin'. I'm maybe 6 or 7 miles from you. MY basement was dry, too.....

Flood 1

And not to put TOO fine a point on it.....
Flood 2
post #96 of 171
And just thought I'd add this one, too.

After all is said and done, carpet on top would have been 3xs the carpet on the bottom.

Old and new carpet choices.
post #97 of 171
It's always something isn't it!

I agree that dricore would take care of it. Regardless of carpet choice if you do get water that goes above the dricore you will need to pull it up. I too got water and was able to salvage my carpet in the HT but it was not an easy task. The dricore and the padding did need to be replaced.

I never had the carpet take on or give any bad moisture odor before or after the flood and my water table tends to be relatively high during the winter/spring time.

If you go dricore you can save some money by also building the riser directly on the concrete and simply dricore the section in between. That's what I did and it really worked out in my favor. I did use pressure treated lumber as the base for the riser and stage, as it appears you also did for your stage.
post #98 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morph1c View Post

So BIG sends me a PM that our carpet selection might not be good in a basement environment due to it being 100% wool with a jute backing. Apparently, natural materials are discouraged because of their ability to retain moisture and promote mold growth.

Since you are planning to finish your entire basement, are you planning to put in a dehumidifier? Even with a dry basement, summer humidity + cool basement will produce issues. Assuming you used standard building materials for what you have done already (re: drywall and insulation), you may have to invest in a dehumidifier anyway.
post #99 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlogan6797 View Post

I'm just sayin'. I'm maybe 6 or 7 miles from you. MY basement was dry, too.....

Flood 1

And not to put TOO fine a point on it.....
Flood 2


Good grief Logan! - if you don't mind my asking, how old is your house and what is the root cause for these floodings?
post #100 of 171
Sump pump failures.
post #101 of 171
Root cause = rain

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

I think it's going to depend on how your basement is built. If you don't have a sump, then you won't be susceptible to the same sort of problem. However, in a basement moisture will always be a concern.
post #102 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oman321 View Post

It's always something isn't it!

oh yeah, the story of my life...



Quote:


I agree that dricore would take care of it. Regardless of carpet choice if you do get water that goes above the dricore you will need to pull it up. I too got water and was able to salvage my carpet in the HT but it was not an easy task. The dricore and the padding did need to be replaced.

I spent the better part of today researching at the DRIcore product and others like it. Interestingly, most google searches link back to AVS Forum Things I don't like about DRICore:
  1. it has a glued-on OSB layer. So, not only is OSB an organic product that can break down and/or mold when wet, they also made it very difficult to remove the water that might be trapped in the dimples on the top-side
  2. it's thick! - almost an inch... If only doing the theater room, I'd have to have a ramp at the door to transition to the adjacent room *and* I'd likely have to put another layer of OSB on my riser (so the 2nd row can continue to see over the first)

After reviewing nearly 10 products like DRIcore, I think I like SuperSeal's Carpet Subfloor Membrane the most. It's only 1/8" an inch, has no organic matter and, unlike Delta FL, doesn't require a plywood to be put on top of it, since its dimples are too small to be felt under a normal carpet pad. On the downside, it only offers 1/16" of an air-gap, whereas DRIcore has 3/8" gap, but my thoughts are that it's OK for what I care about (to keep a wool carpet dry).

Quote:


If you go dricore you can save some money by also building the riser directly on the concrete and simply dricore the section in between. That's what I did and it really worked out in my favor. I did use pressure treated lumber as the base for the riser and stage, as it appears you also did for your stage.

I already have walls, stage, and riser in place - so this is my only option but, looking at Logan's thread, I'd be disinclined to put DRIcore under any of them!
post #103 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerParty View Post

Since you are planning to finish your entire basement, are you planning to put in a dehumidifier? Even with a dry basement, summer humidity + cool basement will produce issues. Assuming you used standard building materials for what you have done already (re: drywall and insulation), you may have to invest in a dehumidifier anyway.

Already have a dehumidifier. Got it to help dry out the sand I put in the stage. Seems like good practice to run it during summer months. I might run it year-round - ideally it'd be hidden out of the way in the theater room, but the only hidden spot is behind the screen. Hey, BIG, I'm having an idea for a trick access panel...no, no, no, you don't need to put you head in the dead vent again...
post #104 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Sump pump failures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Root cause = rain

No, I meant, how did the water get in in the first place - cracks in walls or foundation, a bad window, what? My house is ~5 years old, built by a reputable builder, and bone-dry since day #1. I'm paranoid enough to install SuperSeal, but I think it's unrealistic to plan for 5-6 inches of water - that's what insurance is for.
post #105 of 171
It came up from the sump pump well I believe. His basement entrance is the same as yours with a below grade stairwell that acts like a rain collector. At his place that drain at the bottom of the stairs connects inside the house to the sump well.
post #106 of 171
It looks like you have a sump so if it's tops pumping, it will eventually overflow.

The water in the sump comes from the water in the ground outside your basement walls. To keep the water from seeping through the walls, most basement walls have a waterproofing membrane applied with drains at the bottom of the walls. The water looks for the path of least resistance which is the drain. These drains are then piped to the sump which pumps it away from your house.
post #107 of 171
Are there alternatives to sump pumps? I'm not sure if my house will have one.
post #108 of 171
If your lot has enough slope, you just run the perimeter drains out to daylight and let gravity do what it does best. If you have a flat lot, or your basement is the lowest point, you pretty well have to put in a sump pump.
post #109 of 171
Thread Starter 
Yesterday, BIG and I put a layer of 5/8" drywall on the dead vent we built last weekend. We used a whole tube of GG to dampen the four visible sides...well, three sides and the bottom. As we finished, I rapped my hand against it to see how sturdy it sounds. While my raps sound like thuds, I also noticed that it sounds a bit like a hallow box.

Before this gets out of hand, I should quickly amend that the dead vent sounds just like my walls, which *are* stuffed full of insulation. I'm no longer concerned with the hallow sound, per se, but I still wonder if we inadvertently created a "boom box" that could affect sound quality. I can setup my speakers and test, but what should I listen for? - muddy bass? If I use REW, is there a particular tell-tale pattern to look for?
post #110 of 171
The Green Glue hasn't cured yet. Give it thirty days.
post #111 of 171
Thread Starter 
Went to Jo-Ann fabrics yesterday. The only 1" thick poly-fil batting I could find is labeled "densified batting" - more specifically Soft-n-Crafty NU-foam, by Fairfield. It looks and feels like batting, albeit it seems more stiff (less soft). Is this stuff OK to use, or will it have more absorption than regular battling?

I searched AVS forum, there are no references to densified batting in any of the results...
post #112 of 171
Thread Starter 
BIG and I have decided to build the fabric panels directly on the wall using furring strips. What this means is that the Linacoustic/batting will be forever encased behind the fabric once it's stapled in place. In order to know how much of the absorbers to put where, we plan to temporarily attach them to the walls and measure the room's response using REW and iterate from there.

Since carpet and chairs have huge impact on the rooms response, it seems that they will need to be installed first. I'd always imagined the carpet to be dead-last, but I guess not now. Actually, now I'm thinking the whole room needs to be complete, except for stapling the fabric and installing the crown/chair/base moldings. Specifically, this means that we'd need to have the columns, ceiling, screen frame done too.

Is leaving the molding off OK for the REW tests? I'm not sure if DW is as live as wood, but for sure it's 1" back from where the molding would be, and that means the reflections won't be right. Of the three, the chair molding has the most influence, since it's closest to speaker/ear height. Thankfully, it will be fairly painless to friction-fit the chair molding for these tests. So that just leaves the crown and base - hopefully the REW tests will be valid with these moldings missing...

Sound OK?
post #113 of 171
Following this scientific make/measure/remake approach the columns can only be temporarily set in place as well.

Or we could install columns and molding make all the panels friction fit (removable) and just set in place for testing, if they fail pull off the wall and re-stuff. After you are pleased we would need to attach the panels to the wall.

Or pay someone for an acoustical treatment plan and build it once.

Some pictures from the weekend

Furring on the wall and Linacoustic



After trying the see through test we decided that the furring should be painted a dark color so that the contrasting light wood and black Linacoustic wouldn't show through the fabric.



With the real fabric, carpet sample, swatch of the proposed soffit paint, scrap of birch plywood (it will be stained cherry)

post #114 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post


Or pay someone for an acoustical treatment plan and build it once.

But this is would mean giving up some control....

Bpape or Dennis Erskine would have the expertise to plan it correctly and eliminate the science project phase thus saving time and energy.
post #115 of 171
Quote:
Good grief Logan! - if you don't mind my asking, how old is your house and what is the root cause for these floodings?

Sorry, just getting back to this thread (I had a busy week in my theater, but I'll update with pics tonight).

The house was built around 1990. I'm behind the Kohls across form the NoVa campus off Rte 7. As near as I can tell the water came up through the pit and then flooded over the threshold of the sliding door from the outside because it wasn't draining into the pit any longer..

The first time, pretty simply, the sump pump failed. And there was a LOT of rain REALLY fast. I was out of the basement for 90 minutes and it went from bone dry to ankle deep. So I put in a back up.

The second time, I think what happened is that the float of the primary pump got caught up in the additional wiring of the back up and never turned on. It worked fine when I reached down in there and lifted the float up into position. Then I think that because again there was SO much water so fast that the backup was running continuously and the battery died. The problem there I think is that I think need a new battery already because THIS time the flood happened over about 25-30 minutes from the time my son left the house and actually checked it and the time my wife got home and found it. The water wasn't as deep as we got there sooner.

THIS year I'm thinking of two things. A temp cover over the steps from about the last week or so of August (BOTH floods were the first week of Sept) and setting a new sump pump at the bottom of the steps with one of the floats that slide up and down (as opposed to the floating bulb type) set to come on with as little water down there as possible.

I think the only permanent solution I've come up with is to see if I can find someone that can horizontally drill a hole and install another drainline from the bottom of the stairs out to the storm drain just outside my property line. Without having to take out a 2nd mortgage, that is.
post #116 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post


With the real fabric, carpet sample, swatch of the proposed soffit paint, scrap of birch plywood (it will be stained cherry)


I like the colors!
post #117 of 171
Thread Starter 
Taking a break, sitting on the riser, I noticed that the chair rail might be close to a reflection point. Breaking out a mirror, it seems that, at it's closest point, it's 3.5" away from a speaker's lowest woofer. Taking into account the 1.5" furring strip, the reflection point is about 2" from the closest hard surface. This is for the "far" speaker - that is, the speaker on the opposite side of the room from the listener. The direct line-of-sight distance is 170", the distance including the bounce off the wall is 283". So what do you think, too close for comfort? If "yes", then how many inches away do you think it should be?

BTW, wouldn't the untreated ceiling be a worse offender? I'm thinking this might be the case since: 1) all three LCR speakers reflect to the listener, 2) every driver of every speaker reflects to the listener, and 3) the reflection distance is closer than the "far" speaker bounce mentioned above. That said, the one positive thing about a ceiling bounce is that it comes from the same horizontal direction, but I have no idea how important that might be...
post #118 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morph1c View Post

Taking a break, sitting on the riser, I noticed that the chair rail might be close to a reflection point. Breaking out a mirror, it seems that, at it's closest point, it's 3.5" away from a speaker's lowest woofer. Taking into account the 1.5" furring strip, the reflection point is about 2" from the closest hard surface. This is for the "far" speaker - that is, the speaker on the opposite side of the room from the listener. The direct line-of-sight distance is 170", the distance including the bounce off the wall is 283". So what do you think, too close for comfort? If "yes", then how many inches away do you think it should be?

BTW, wouldn't the untreated ceiling be a worse offender? I'm thinking this might be the case since: 1) all three LCR speakers reflect to the listener, 2) every driver of every speaker reflects to the listener, and 3) the reflection distance is closer than the "far" speaker bounce mentioned above. That said, the one positive thing about a ceiling bounce is that it comes from the same horizontal direction, but I have no idea how important that might be...

You see the trouble you can get in when you take a break?
post #119 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

You see the trouble you can get in when you take a break?

It seems like I can never catch a break

These pics illustrate the reflection points - taking into account "angle of incidence is equal to angle of reflection" and relative travel distance. I also confirmed all these points using a mirror:






The YELLOW above/below the chair rail represents the furring strips. The little PURPLE hash-marks represent the reflection for each of the speakers drivers. It's the lowest hash-mark I'm wondering about. I think I'm OK, since it does go into the Linacoustic, but I'm asking since it's *so* close...
post #120 of 171
Any updates?

You guys started talking about floods and sump pump failures and it scared me witless! Sump pump failures make me shudder, cuss, and extremely paranoid. Actually ANY water issues in the house make me paranoid.

Really liking the colors. On the reflection issue I would not guess it would be that big of a problem, but I know NOTHING about acoustics so don't listen to me.

Regards,

RTROSE
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